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Chemtrailes don't exist

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posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by Udontknowme

Wow, those videos are great, especially the second one at :30 second into it.


What is your opinion on these? All of which are normal contrails produced by normal commercial airliners. A useful comparison?




posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by brocket99
Ragnar,

I felt the same way, and got tired of all the speculation. You don't need to be a scientist to recognize the difference between contrails that dissipate and chemtrails that linger in the sky for hours.



If you were a scientist, or a weatherman, or sailor, or just someone who looked at the sky a lot. You'd know that for the past 80 years contrails have often lingered in the skies for hours.

Now, if you can provide evidence that contrails do not so linger, please present it. Otherwise I assert that you are misleading people by perpetrating a myth and a lie


For reference, a description of just that happening form a scientific paper published in 1970

(I keep posting a link to that - one day someone might actually read it!)

See also:

www.airspacemag.com...

I welcome informed scientific refutation of this article
Refuting it simply because you don't want to believe it and want to believe in chemtrails is not however acceptable.



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 08:40 PM
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reply to post by brocket99
 


Firstly, I am not a "troll", I have been posting here and trying (in many cases failing) to get people who are being fed this nonsense about passenger jets to understand that being able to carry extra weight in the form of these so-called "chemicals", AND having the equipment, intent, and super-dooper top secret logistics behind it is nonsense. In fact, it is simply normal contrails that form, when temperatures and Relative Humidty are appropriate, because of the effects of the hot engine exhaust gases. Because of the altitudes of formation, they will sometimes resemble a type of cirrus cloud, and in fact, will seem to linger BECAUSE the conditions are ripe in the first place for cirrus clouds to form!! The jet engines just provide the impetus!

I attempt to approach this with actual information because of my experience as a pilot for over 30 years. It's amazing how much baloney is spread around by these so-called "chemtrail" proponents, and it pains me to see otherwise intelligent people fall for it, simply because they lack the experience in the field of aviation to see it for the baloney it is.

To wit:


One fellow mentioned planes do go in different directions etc so that they could create grids randomly, but the ones I have seen are usually have one plane or two planes making the trails, changing directions(with no trail) and coming back the opposite way with a trail again.


You, one of the intelligent individuals I mentioned, are simply incorrect --- UNLESS you sat and observed the sky uninterrupted for hours on end.

Consider your line of sight, from a point-of-view on the ground. A passenger jet at 35,000 feet, for example, directly overhead, equates to just over 6 1/2 statute miles, (assuming YOU are at Sea Level) using those units that I am most familiar with. You may convert to metric if those units are more familiar to you.

NOW, consider that the airplanes, in cruise at altitude, are travelling at between 6-8 miles per minute groundspeed, depend on airplane cruise speed and winds aloft.

Do you see where I'm going with this? You have to take into account slant-range distance, to be able to see the very small (relatively) airplane as it appears in the distance, then calculate how long it remains in your field of view producing the contrail (the contrail actually makes it a bit easier to spot the airplane, eh??) and be able to see that same airplane, after it traverses the area directly overhead, make a 180 and come back for another pass. Isn't it more logical to realize that you are just seeing different airplanes?

I am trying to point out that a perception of airplanes flying grids, overhead, is just that --- a perception. If you live in the continguous USA, you can go to this website, and enter the airport code for any major airport nearest to you, and see real-time data of actual flights, those on IFR flight plans in the FAA ATC system. (If you know the four-letter ICAO airport codes, type those in...OR, the site will guide you with airport names).


Anyways...the only reasonable possibility I have found is the concept of weather control/geoengineering to combat global warming by reflecting back the sunlight.


That IS one of the proposals, the idea to alter the albedo and reflect sunlight...I still maintain it's a fool's errand, and probably unwarranted, since "Global Warming" is yet to be substantiated, inasmuch as it being a result of OUR activity (Humans) that is the cause. Also, major Global alterations to climate can be seen merely from natural events, such as major volcanic eruptions. I doubt Humans could come anywhere close to Nature in the sheer SIZE and VOLUME needed, that which Nature does far more easily.


...and could also explain why a 747 has a chemtrail across the ocean, if its done to create the artificial cloud cover.


At the risk of repeating myself....well, I've already, on other threads, described the illogic and impossibility of any sort of passenger jets carrying extra payload, in the form of "chemicals", not to mention the fact that there is no equipment built into the airplanes to 'spray'.

A close look at every contrail picture clearly shows the contrails forming directly behind jet engines. I don't know the motivation behind a lot of these "chemtrail" websites....do they sell T-shirts, hats, books, DVDs? Would behoove a person to investigate.

Actual scientists, meteorologists, pilots, aircraft mechanics, etc., see the notion of "chemtrails" from normal passenger jets as ludicrous.

ALSO, in case Military pops into your mind, well...in specific Military Operations Airspace who knows? BUT, in other US Airspace, ALL airplanes above FL180 (18,000 feet) are in 'Positive Control" airspace, and must be in contact with ATC and be subject to normal ATC procedures.

This same concept is similar in all ICAO-compliant nations.
_________________________________________________________
(tags)



[edit on 21 August 2009 by weedwhacker]



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 08:43 PM
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Somewhere in the US a village is frantically trying to locate it's Idiot. Pssst~ He found his way to ATS and is getting flambayed. Better come get him and take him home quick, because it's not looking good for him.



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 08:44 PM
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I don't focus on chemtrails because its serve as a distraction to contemplate on instead of the real truth.



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 08:47 PM
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reply to post by dino1989
 


Though i agree chem trails don't exist this thread is nothing more than baiting come on even I'm going what kinda proof is that. Put together an argument present the facts like the effects of aerosol spraying at 5000 ft.I can give you links that talk about consistent contrails how they form what conditions are needed. Give some facts to back your statement all your doing is giving people who believe in chem trails a reason to think there right by saying look he cant even prove there not real.



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 08:52 PM
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OK so now I will put in my two cents. I live in Portland oregon and whenever I see Chemtrails is usually at the leading edges of on coming weather systems. They are usually much to low and can be seen on very hot days so the idea that they are frozen exhaust is ludicris. Also I have watched them boil out and take larger shape and drift east to form what look like clouds. Many times they will drift into the many other trails and as they gather moisture from the air and move further east till they start to back up against the mountain ranges they become clouds. I have watched them for hours because at first I was sceptical. Now I'm not. I don't see how Jets traveling at around 12 thousand feet on a hot summer day can leave contrails that float for 50 miles and spread out till they form clouds is possible. I don't give a rats arse if you are a pilot or ground hog I know what I have witnessed, and witness weekly up here, and they are NOT Contrails.

[edit on 21-8-2009 by Barkster]



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 09:18 PM
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chemtrail enthusiasts, and fans alike; why don´t ya´ll take the argument to a pro chemtrail thread where a brave person has put themselves on the line bringing the light of day to an important topic. WonderWorld has a great chemtrail thread, or udontknow me.

To the naysayers, and debunkers your arguing in a thread who´s very title is mispelled. I keep seeing this thread, and keep shaking my head that we´ve devolved into arguing where the OP was obviously confused, and didn´t use spell check.

Remember deny ignorance; chemtrails exist



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 10:01 PM
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reply to post by Barkster
 


Oh my gosh!!

You say it rains? And storms?

man, you've just described weather! Been happening before airplanes were invented, I'd think.

"12,000" feet?? See, that's part of the problem, the lack of understanding of the specifics....and the beat goes on!

Check out your local Weather Channel next time the storm's approachin'.



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 10:08 PM
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Originally posted by Barkster
I live in Portland oregon and whenever I see Chemtrails is usually at the leading edges of on coming weather systems.


Persistant contrails are a good tool to indicate that wet eather is on the way. The upper levels of the troposphere get moist before any other level.




They are usually much to low and can be seen on very hot days so the idea that they are frozen exhaust is ludicris.


Ummm, you do realise that the temperature decreases with altitdue right? If you dont believe this I will prove it weather balloon data on request



Also I have watched them boil out and take larger shape and drift east to form what look like clouds. Many times they will drift into the many other trails and as they gather moisture from the air and move further east till they start to back up against the mountain ranges they become clouds.


Yes its caused by prevailing wind and the cloud thickens due to superasturation. You dont know much about meteorology do you



I have watched them for hours because at first I was sceptical. Now I'm not. I don't see how Jets traveling at around 12 thousand feet on a hot summer day can leave contrails that float for 50 miles and spread out till they form clouds is possible. I don't give a rats arse if you are a pilot or ground hog I know what I have witnessed, and witness weekly up here, and they are NOT Contrails.

[edit on 21-8-2009 by Barkster]


No you wouldnt listen to experts, because like all experts you just assume we are part of the government conspiracy. Like all chemtrail believers, all it takes is to learn a bit about the mechanisms that drive the weather and the workings of the troposphere from an unbiased source.

Im assuming that you wont though and will continue to live in ignorance....keep your gas mask on



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 01:23 AM
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Oh please, if your an expert than do post your credentials. Just beause you may have a degree in meterology doesn't mean anything. They form clouds because they have chemicals that draw the moisture out of the air. They arent contrails they are chemtrails. Jet fuel exhaust doesn't do that. However there are in existence many government documents that state explicitly what these chemicals are and that these government programs exist. But I'm sure thats just another conspiracy. How much do you guys get paid to come in here and post your boastus humous anyways? You can try to insult and intimidate people on forums with your general slights like "leave your gas masks on" but for some of us that have done our homework that doesn't work. experts exshmerts " oh looky a self proclaimed expert says that theres no such thing as chemtrails, baaaa, well then it must be so" bleeted the dumbed down sheeple~ Get real



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 01:52 AM
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reply to post by Barkster
 


Barkster... I'm not sure where you live, but have you ever flown in a jet, during the hottest month of the year and looked at the plane window and seen ice crystals on it? It happens on almost every flight. Why? Because it's effin cold up there!!! Somewhere around -50 F.

Check out this link. It tells a little bit about how temps decline drastically the farther up you go.

I have personally flown at the beginning of July, descending into Louisiana in a storm and looked out the window and it was SNOWING at cloud level. On the ground, it was hot as hell and so humid you could almost drink the air, but way up there, it was crazy cold. Airplane exhaust can and does freeze there, minus chemicals.

BUT, with that said, I suppose people will believe what they want to believe and it doesn't matter who says what. When we all start dropping dead from breathing the air alone, I'll believe in chemtrails. As of now though, I see no proof.

[edit on 8/22/2009 by gemineye]



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 02:33 AM
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Originally posted by Barkster

Oh please, if your an expert than do post your credentials. Just beause you may have a degree in meterology doesn't mean anything.


If you're in Australia, I will happily u2u my work address at the bureau of meteorology. I will even give you my work email to email at if you still dont believe me



They form clouds because they have chemicals that draw the moisture out of the air.


And how exactly do they do that? Dust from aircraft exhaust does the same thing, ice crystals already present in the atmosphere attach themselves to the dust particulate and water vapour from the engine, causing larger crystals, therefore creating cloud we can see



They arent contrails they are chemtrails. Jet fuel exhaust doesn't do that.


Actually it does, its basic chemistry......its so simple to figure out, but you refuse to deny your own ignorance



However there are in existence many government documents that state explicitly what these chemicals are and that these government programs exist. But I'm sure thats just another conspiracy. How much do you guys get paid to come in here and post your boastus humous anyways?


And it starts. This is a common thing for chemtrailers to do. As soon as you see someone that is a pilot, aircraft mechanic or meterologist, you just start saying they are a disinfo agent. Really goes to show the lack of quality your side of the argument has...to have to resort to this without even explaining your own points.



You can try to insult and intimidate people on forums with your general slights like "leave your gas masks on" but for some of us that have done our homework that doesn't work. experts exshmerts " oh looky a self proclaimed expert says that theres no such thing as chemtrails, baaaa, well then it must be so" bleeted the dumbed down sheeple~ Get real


And by the way, if you think Im a seld proclaimed expert, then report me to the mods for lying. And since when does claiming "i know what i see" count as homework. Ive come across people with the same information as you that have actually tried to debunk contrail science. But you havent shown any small bit of information that even backs up your opinion.

You say they are chemicals, but dont explain the process in how they are. Thats really weak....

Oh and mods....I will happily sit here and have you log my IP when Im next at work, just so we can prove that Im not lying about myself



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 05:38 AM
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reply to post by Barkster
 


Barkster, maybe before you accuse meteorologists of not knowing anything about meteorology, you should read up on the subject yourself? I'm sure your local library will have a few books which will help you understand how and why clouds form etc.

Meanwhile, with regards cirrus and manmade cirrus (aka contrails) this may help:

www.airspacemag.com...



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 03:46 PM
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Believe it or not, there were so many "Contrails" in the sky today that it has formed a huge cloudy haze over the entire city I live in.

You guys are bizarre for believing that this is a normal occurrence.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 03:49 PM
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Not only that I simply posted information coming from a scientist who is far more credentialed and experienced then anyone in these forums, as well as a patent that explains the technology, and an example of them using the technology proudly, and you guys act like I am wrong???

Get real. I am actually a physician, so I may not study meteorology, since every meteorologist I know is no better then 50/50 at forecasting the weather, but they are good at describing what kind of cloud is in the sky. Yaaaay! Something we all learned in 5th grade.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by brocket99
Believe it or not, there were so many "Contrails" in the sky today that it has formed a huge cloudy haze over the entire city I live in.

You guys are bizarre for believing that this is a normal occurrence.


Wow a city covered in a cloudy haze i believe they call it smog.Usually caused by those horseless carriages(figured id simplify a little).If you care to give us the city be happy to check the smog alerts for you. There is no doubt planes can cause cloud formations so if you see a cloud forming guess what that is normal. Contrails are nothing more than ice crystals guess what so are clouds think they might act the same? If this was a conspiracy any scenario you could come up with can be better served on the ground instead of spraying chemicals at 15000 ft where they become diluted in the atmosphere. Want to make a huge amount of money figure a way to prevent contrails and the military would make you a very rich man.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 04:02 PM
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reply to post by brocket99
 


brockett99, I'm not picking on YOU, but are you referring to this??:



Can Dr. Evil Save the World?

Wood's proposal was not technologically complex. It's based on the idea, well-proven by atmospheric scientists, that volcano eruptions alter the climate for months by loading the skies with tiny particles that act as mini-reflectors, shading out sunlight and cooling the Earth. Why not apply the same principles to saving the Arctic? Getting the particles into the stratosphere wouldn't be a problem — you could generate them easily enough by burning sulfur, then dumping the particles out of high-flying 747s, spraying them into the sky with long hoses or even shooting them up there with naval artillery.



DID you read some of the comments that accompanied the article, in the online forum??

At least the FIRST PERSON that I read echoed my opinion, in comment, by saying it is a "no-no" to attempt to alter our environment.

This guy, "Dr. Wood", may have a heart in the right place, but his understanding of the daunting challenges to actually IMPLEMENT his ideas....well, his understanding is seriously lacking.

THIS is the sort of incredibly BAD "science" that perpetuates the "chemtrail" mythos.

I realize that these ideas are being spouted, mostly, only from a few, and from the also (mostly) younger set....but, I am begining to despair.

As I age, if THIS is the state of education that the future leaders, the "Movers and Shakers" of the World will evince....well, the movie "Idiocracy" comes to mind.................

Perhaps I should seek a more intelligent country, to retire in.
I'm thinking Sweden....I LOVE Stockholm!!
(??)



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 04:14 PM
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My advice:
When there is a sunny day with blue sky, go outside and spend a few hours there and observe all planes that are passing by.

After this you will know the truth!



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 04:19 PM
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The city I live in has ZERO smog issues, and if you can seen the 2 planes making these contrails in a grid pattern all morning. I truly don't give a care if you guys believe me, I'm simply stating whats going on.

These contrails are sooooo plentiful by these same two planes, that they expand over an hour or so to create a haze cover.

You guys are more then welcome to discount me by speculating where I live, but I am only stating the condition in which this is happening.

@weedwhacker:

I am not in agreement with that scientist from the rolling stone article, Dr. Wood. I think the idea of weather manipulation is a terrible one, in comparison to a societal change to greener ideas to help save the environment.

However, I will state the guy knows what hes talking about more then you or I...to the point that he made this presentation to the top scientists in the world. The fact that he described a situation that is potentially happening already, possibly at a top secret level, with the distribution of aerosol that contains aluminum particles(which is mentioned in Dr. Wood's explnation of geoengineering, and is also stated in the 1991 patent) is more then a coincidence.

I am not one who believes the govrnment is SPRAYING us with stuff, although they are legally allowed to, but to think the government wouldnt consider doing something top secret for the "greater good" or whatever reason they want to come up with is idiotic.

If you read other posts I have written you will see that I regular try to bring logic and understanding to things people are lying about or distorting, or blowing out of proportion...but I know that contrails do not form cloudy cover over an entire city within a couple of hours.



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