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Steel Piece Proves Lie - NIST engineer John Gross denies WTC molten steel

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posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 07:28 PM
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Where did all that heat come from?

Not from the jet fuel or office furniture.

Not from a gravity collapse.



This 8-ton 6 inch thick steel I-beam was once straight, but is now curved into a horseshoe shape without stress cracks, by the intensive heat which formed the molten metal under the WTC.




Google Video Link



Google Video Link


NIST Engineer John Gross refused to give the individual his email so the NASA AVIIRIS hot spot images could be e-mailed to him, even though Gross asked him to during the meeting. NIST frauds and liars with an attitude of wilful ignorance.

Images of the World Trade Center Site Show Thermal Hot Spots on September 16 and 23, 2001





Hanger 17 Panoramic Interactive Display of a Few WTC Pieces




posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 07:40 PM
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Wow, that beam, who would have thought that fuel burning in metal heaters and engines can do that, must have been down to the highly combustible office furniture, not noticed by insurance assessors when surveying for insurance covers and mortgages.

Whatever caused that to that beam is responsible for nothing cooling down for around 100 days, those IKEA - tables, chairs, and various other content have a lot to answer for
.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 07:41 PM
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reply to post by SPreston
 


Great thread S+F, quality content as usual Preston!

The molten metal is yet another nail in the coffin of the official story. If the official story is to be believed 100%, then it absolutely fails to provide sound reasoning for there to be *any* molten metal what so ever. Absolutely none.

If someone thinks about the scenario, it's easy to understand why there should be no molten metal.

- The original blast, as well as the resulting fires could not have reached the temperatures to literally turn metal molten.

- The towers, then completely collapse so a fire that *was* 70-80 floors off the ground, plummets to the ground.

- Now, below those fires, was 70-80 floors of concrete, steel, office equipment and supplies, and people. Everything below the fire collapses into a pad. This then gets covered up by a couple floors of fires, then the remainder of the towers.

- So now we have 70 floors of rubble in a pad, add a few floors of fire, then toss on the remaining floors for a bit of spice. And voila, according to the official story, we now have molten metal, SOME HOW, underneath ALL of that.


So debunkers, how can this be explained?

Q1. Even if you ignorantly believe that the initial blast and subsequent fires could have created literally molten metal, how did it some how get below all the rubble?

Q2. Since you cannot deny that molten metal was found in abundance that day, please tell me why none of your "official" investigations cover it properly?

Q2b. Why has so many interviews like the ones in OP, gone the way of the interviewee completely ignoring the question or deflecting it, rather than discussing how molten metal was found at all. Technically, according to the official story there should be ZERO molten metal anywhere near the WTC complex.

Q3. When are you debunkers going to get a grip?

[edit on 19-8-2009 by king9072]



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 08:19 PM
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When I first discovered ats I was one of the millions that bought the "official" story even though it just didn't seem to make sense. I had never heard anything about all of this. That was about a year ago now, and now I can't see how ANYONE presented with this information can possibly believe them.

This is science here not conspiracy! It truly pisses me off the way the government tries to make out that anyone that questions the lie and uses SCIENCE is not a patriot. I am still trying to get some stubborn family members to take a look at this stuff. My mother finally admitted that to think anything else is just too horrible.

Why, why is NO ONE in the MSM doing this work and putting this out?



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 08:35 PM
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Good stuff...love the part when Rudy describes fires breaking out randomly.

S+F of course. The evidence is without a doubt solid.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 09:05 PM
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Originally posted by redhead57
When I first discovered ats I was one of the millions that bought the "official" story even though it just didn't seem to make sense. I had never heard anything about all of this. That was about a year ago now, and now I can't see how ANYONE presented with this information can possibly believe them.

This is science here not conspiracy! It truly pisses me off the way the government tries to make out that anyone that questions the lie and uses SCIENCE is not a patriot. I am still trying to get some stubborn family members to take a look at this stuff. My mother finally admitted that to think anything else is just too horrible.

Why, why is NO ONE in the MSM doing this work and putting this out?


The MSM are run by governments apart from the few dependants, there`s huge back door deals going on with the powers that be and the media, ever noticed when, say, drug busts on properties are going on and being filmed by the MSM live - and thought `How the hell did the news team get info for this?`, works both ways also, say there`s some maniac on the run and the police want him arrested asap, nothing beats a prime time news article showing their picture etc, etc
.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 01:06 AM
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If the planes had of hit the buildings and knocked out the central columns which housed the elevators could jet fuel not have all the way down the building into the basement and ignited the gas storage units there by creating a fire which would have also ignited all the another cars parked down there.

This would have in turn caused a chain reaction igniting all the other cars and causing a huge inferno - this would also account for the explosion nosies heard by the fireman.

It would also account for the testimony of hearing bombs going off in the basement - and the damage done to the lobby floor.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 01:35 AM
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Originally posted by audas
If the planes had of hit the buildings and knocked out the central columns which housed the elevators could jet fuel not have all the way down the building into the basement and ignited the gas storage units there by creating a fire which would have also ignited all the another cars parked down there.

This would have in turn caused a chain reaction igniting all the other cars and causing a huge inferno - this would also account for the explosion nosies heard by the fireman.

It would also account for the testimony of hearing bombs going off in the basement - and the damage done to the lobby floor.


A few points... how many elevator shafts went top to bottom?, how did the Jet fuel escape the initial fireball, go down a shaft and then ignite itself?, now the main point, Rodriquez has stated that there was an explosion below - pre impact bomb - and an explosion after this above - plane hitting building.

I won`t say anymore but I will leave an interesting picture to ponder over, bear in mind that any data linked with time used by NIST is data that sets it`s clocks with UTC - exactly the same as providers of this data - Coordinated Universal Time (UTC), if you are part of any kind of network you use time and set clocks accordingly, world time also uses the UTC, it`s 100% guaranteed that any aspect of 9/11 that was government, air companies, computer data, based and had time stamps they were times set to the UTC.



If that picture becomes confusing think this, and it`s hard to know as it was a worlds 1st, as seismic energy is registered and recorded via the ground it`s unknown to date that - a Jet hitting a structure designed to absorb energy due to hurricanes etc would be detected by seismographs, as most of the after shock has been absorbed by the time it would have travelled to the ground.

Go find a Rodriquez video and listen to what he says, then look at that chart, forget the elevators unless the fuel got a cab and beat the plane by 14 seconds, what do you see?.

[edit on 18/08/2009 by Seventh]



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 02:09 AM
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reply to post by SPreston
 


Would like to add, FEMA documented steel melted by a eutectic reaction formed on columns, in appendix C of their report.

So the presence of molten steel had already been documented by the time NIST got around to their own investigation. Looks like somebody at NIST wasn't doing their research.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 03:32 AM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by SPreston
 


Would like to add, FEMA documented steel melted by a eutectic reaction formed on columns, in appendix C of their report.

So the presence of molten steel had already been documented by the time NIST got around to their own investigation. Looks like somebody at NIST wasn't doing their research.


ya, or two liars can't keep their story straight.

And for the person that remarked about the fuel travelling down the building. I am glad someone made a point about how the elevators don't travel from top to bottom.

But additionally, using that logic, one would assume that jet fuel travelled in every direction, but it didn't, it just went conveniently down some elevator shafts? Creating molten metal under the building? Come on now.. lets just get a small grip on reality.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 04:28 AM
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Originally posted by audas
If the planes had of hit the buildings and knocked out the central columns which housed the elevators could jet fuel not have all the way down the building into the basement and ignited the gas storage units there by creating a fire which would have also ignited all the another cars parked down there.


The elevator shafts were staggered and did not connect from top to
basement level.

Two service elevators ran the entire length of the tower, however
and connected to sub level 2 basment. Even if there was a connection
to the parking level from the impact point, the fuel (what was left after
the initial fire ball) would have expanded and burned up in the shaft
before it reached the basement over 1000 feet below...not to mention...
the 'fireball' would have to stop...turn 90 degrees...open the shaft doors
and then travel to the parking level. This assuming the elevator car was
not blocking the shaft (I'll give you that benefit of the doubt).

Not a chance.

EDIT: Correction on service elevator. Thx.

[edit on 20-8-2009 by turbofan]



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 04:59 AM
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reply to post by turbofan
 


Actually in the very OP video of the San Diego Citizens Grand Jury, they said it had two elevator shafts that went the whole length of the building, down to sublevel 2.

Speaking of which, here is the outcome of this Grand Jury:


Historic Result From San Diego Citizens' Grand Jury
On The Crimes Of September 11, 2001
In New York City
Jurors Vote To Charge Sixteen With 'Conspiracy To Commit Mass Murder' On 9/11/01

CONVENING on Saturday, April 14, 2007, the 23-member San Diego Citizens Grand Jury on the Crimes of September 11, 2001 in New York City heard more than six hours of presentations by Chief Prosecutor Don Paul, Chief Investigator Jim Hoffman, and Expert Witnesses Richard Gage, Ted Muga, Steven Jones and Kevin Ryan at the Student Council Chambers in the Aztec Center of San Diego State University.

ON the evening of that Saturday the Jurors voted by majority for two Indictments and fourteen Presentments on the most consequential Charge offered them, that of 'Conspiracy to Commit Mass Murder'. The 'Mass Murder' in question pertains to the death of more than 2300 people due to the destruction of World Trade Center Buildings 1 and 2 (the Twin Towers) on the morning of September 11, 2001. Jurors had seen much evidence that internal explosives must have caused the two 110--story skyscrapers to disintegrate into their footprints. They'd also seen records that more than incompetence had caused American Airlines Flight 11 and United Airlines Flight 175 to escape interception by U. S. Military on 9/11/01. Jurors called for a "heavier" Charge than any originally offered by Chief Prosecutor Paul. Their own initiative, based on their knowledge from and before the day's many hours of proceedings, produced a far greater number of individuals wanted through Presentment, fourteen, than the two posed by the Prosecutor as deserving further investigation through Indictment for the "heavier" or "stronger" Charge. A Presentment, acccording to the Columbia University Press Encyclopedia, is 'an accusation issued by the grand jury on its own knowledge, without any bill of indictment having been previously drawn up by the prosecutor.'

PER the Chief Prosecutor's request for Indictment, the two persons named by San Diego Citizens Grand Jury as showing probable cause for further investigation on the Charge of 'Conspiracy to Commit Mass Murder', are:

* RUDOLPH GIULIANI, Mayor of New York City on 9/11/01

* JEROME HAUER, Managing Director of Kroll, Inc. and Senior Adviser to the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services for National Security and Emergency Management on 9/11/01; former Director of Mayor Rudolph Giuliani's Office of Emergency Management (1996-2000).

PER Presentment, based on Jurors' knowledge without any bill having been previously drawn up by the Chief Prosecutor, the fourteen persons named by the San Diego Citizens Grand Jury as showing probable cause for further investigation on the Charge of 'Conspiracy to Commit Mass Murder', are:


* THOMAS PICKARD, Acting Director of the U. S. Federal Bureau of Investigation from June 25, 2001 to September 4, 2001

* MICHAEL CHERKASKY, Chief Executive Officer of Kroll, Inc. on 9/11/01; former investigator in the Manhattan District Attorney's Office from 1978 to 1994; current C.E.O. of the Marsh & McClennan insurance firm

* GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States on 9/11/01

* LARRY SILVERSTEIN, C.E.O. of Silverstein Properties, primary leaseholder of the World Trade Center Twin Towers, and developer of the third skyscraper that disintegrated into its own footprint in lower Manhattan on 9/11/01, World Trade Building 7

* RICHARD CHENEY, Vice-President of the U. S. on 9/11/01

* DONALD RUMSFELD, Secretary of Defense of the U. S. on 9/11/01

* MARVIN BUSH, member of Board of Directors of Securacom, a firm entrusted with security for the Twin Towers, from 1996 to 2000

* WIRT WALKER, C.E.O. of Securacom (later Stratasec) from 1999 to 2003

* RICHARD MYERS, Acting Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff on 9/11/01

* RALPH EBERHART, Commander of North American Aerospace Command (NORAD) on 9/11/01

* L. PAUL BREMER, Executive with Marsh & McClennan on 9/11/01; Chairman of the U. S. Congress' National Commission on Terrorism from 1999 to 2000; U.S. Ambassador-at-Large for Counterterrorism from 1986 to 1989; Presidential Envoy to Irag and Adminstrator of the Coaltion Provisional Authority from May 2003 to December 2004

* PETER G. PETERSON, C.E.O. of the Blackstone Group, parent corporation of one of three lease-holdersfor WTC 7 on 9/11/01; also Chairman of the Federal Reserve Ban New York and Chairman of the Council on Foreign Relations on 9/11/01

* DAVID ROCKEFELLER, prime builder of the Twin Towers and all of the World Trade Center complex as Chairman of the Downtown-Lower Manhattan Association from 1958 to 1975; President or C.E.O. of the Chase Manhattan Bank from 1961 to 1981; Chairman of the Council on Foreign Relations from 1970 to 1985

* MAURICE GREENBERG, C.E.O. of the American International Group (A.I.G.) on 9/11/01; A.I.G. the 'leading U. S.-based insurance organization and the largest underwriter of commercial and industrial insurance in the United States', according to its website in February 2000; A.I.G. also a major share-holder in Marsh & McClennan (whose C.E.O. on 9/11/01 was Maurice Greenberg's son Jeffrey; a major investor (7%) in the Blackstone Group; and the leading investor in Kroll, Inc., which became a subsidiary of Marsh & McClennan in 2002.


stj911.org...

So much for a redress of grievances.


Anyway, nice thread SPreston, as usual.
S&F

You have to wonder if NIST is denying the molten metal with so much evidence of it including eyewitness accounts, why in the hell is the place called the NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR STANDARDS AND TECHNOLOGY?

It's more like the National Institute for Subversion and Trepidation.

[edit on Thu Aug 20th 2009 by TrueAmerican]



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 05:32 AM
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reply to post by TrueAmerican
 


Nice list to start off with.

Should also indict NIST and FEMA employees primarily responsible for the content of their respective WTC reports. The director of NIST, Dr. Sunder if I'm not mistaken, seems out of the loop and not suspicious to me, he is honestly stumped by many issues just like the rest of us. John Gross, on the other hand, has outright lied and even acts guilty in front of a camera. I'm sure pulling in a few of these guys would quickly get to the heart of the issue as far as who was directing these whitewashes.

The Kean Commission. They have already been accused of corruption from amongst their own ranks. Bring them all in on indictments as well.

The Port Authority should also be investigated, as it was investigating ways that terrorists could destroy the WTC Towers back in the mid 1980's, bringing in the buildings' engineers and even demolitions and sabotage experts. They discussed plane impacts to the buildings and the vulnerability of the parking garage in a report released in 1985 or 1986, and I can find the appropriate links if necessary. Everyone part of the special unit investigating this should be indicted, including the original engineers.

Condi Rice and Scooter Libby. Both were apparently around Dick Cheney the whole time he was commandeering radio communications with the Secret Service and NORAD/FAA from a bunker.

Nelson Rockefeller. David Rockefeller's brother and was governor of New York at the time the WTC project was initiated. David and Nelson were the ones that really made the WTC project happen, such that it was originally considered to name the towers "David" and "Nelson" instead of Towers 1 and 2. This is also an extremely elitist family, about the very definition of "elitist." David Rockefeller is a ranking member, if not THE ranking member of the Council on Foreign Relations, which is the most influential political lobby in the US to my knowledge. Politicians take "advice" directly from the CFR. Hilary Clinton has even been candid enough to say she basically waits for their word before she forms opinions on policies. I don't know what this amounts to legally but imo it's no different than treason when the largest banks, corporations and political entities are working together to undermine the authority of the citizenry.

Who else?

[edit on 20-8-2009 by bsbray11]



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 05:39 AM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
Who else?


Well, how about all the people from the intelligence cabals overseas? Who is going to go after them? Saudi, ISI, Mossad? Even British intelligence apparently knew something about this.

But if we can't even route this evil out of America, how in the heck are those people involved going to ever be prosecuted? What, the ICC?
Not a chance.


And I'll betcha Sibel Edmonds could add quite a few names to that list.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 05:59 AM
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The 911 inside job truth movement has already won. Most people know 911 was an inside job. Only the disinfo agents and the most brainwashed mind control victims still remain vocal and defending of the official conspiracy theory.

It's obvious. 911 was a psyop and a quasi military operation pulled off by a cabal, by a mafia of government officials, corporate powermongers and rogue elements from the covert "intelligence" agencies, possibly of more than one country. It was not independent terrorism, a phenomenon which barely exists, it was false flag terrorism of the interest groups that control the state aimed at creating the psychological mass impact on the group mind that would allow them to keep power in an ever evolving social context. That impact is fear.

911 was a fear based entropic phenomenon originated in the psychopathocracy. Ponerology is the psychological theory that allows a clear understanding of the profile, behaviour and motivations of the characters behind 911, which is important for the average human, because since our motivations are so distinct from them we can't really relate to their psyche or behaviour patterns.

And those that usually come up yelling for proof, those that can't think for themselves without having an authority of some sort telling them what is real, where have you been the last 8 years? The proof is out there, and it's quite obvious. None of the main elements of 911 truth are really debateable and, as long as the more ridiculous disinfo theories are ignored, the no planes and the orbital laser stuff, it's clear to see the web of lies around 911 that are the hidden cat's tail.

Understand ponerology and you understand 911. It was a psychopathic phenomenon at the grandest of scales.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 06:05 AM
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reply to post by TrueAmerican
 


I think the value of 911 truth is not the prosecution of the culprits, which is basically revenge and in itself a fear based emotional reaction that adds nothing. The value would social change, for the positive, that could be brought out of this event. 911 could change the world for the better if the truth of it hits the group mind at a wide enough scale so as to break confidence in big government and other large corporations and to allow for their deconstruction, bringing us to a more decentralized society based on local communites linked together through a global decentralized internet structure.

If we remove the technological suppression and most of the hegelian dialetic, the ordo ab chaos of problem-reaction-solution, we can enter a renaissance. And we do that by turning our back on the government and the big corporations, be restructuring our lives locally, by letting the whole thing crashing down at the same time as we build the new world to replace it, to be reborn from it's ashes. Will this happen? I don't know. Can it happen? For sure.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 07:09 AM
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Originally posted by SPreston

NIST Engineer John Gross refused to give the individual his email so the NASA AVIIRIS hot spot images could be e-mailed to him, even though Gross asked him to during the meeting. NIST frauds and liars with an attitude of willful ignorance.




The term "willful ignorance" could imply bureaucratic incompetence.

What we are seeing here is NIST actively working to coverup a crime by the Bush administration. NIST is an accessory-after-the-fact to treason and state-sponsored terrorism. We should be treating them as such.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 07:23 AM
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Originally posted by TrueAmerican

Originally posted by bsbray11
Who else?


Well, how about all the people from the intelligence cabals overseas? Who is going to go after them? Saudi, ISI, Mossad? Even British intelligence apparently knew something about this.


Can you provide further detail? I hadn't heard about this and am very keen to know more.

Excellent thread as usual, SP.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 07:33 AM
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I was looking at blueprints of WTC, the four outer corners held 1/5th of the srructures weight, I don't know what failure point was.
In looking at videos, it appears corner is burning with thermite, airplane had knocked hole you could see it burn, then molten steel pour out.

Another thing in looking at hot spots it appears as if, at least four corners we hot.
It would be interesting to overlay original foot print of building.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 07:45 AM
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I was a skeptic about the whole fire thing bringing down the world trade center on 911 but now that I have read further proof that these agencies are lying and covering up the murder of thousands sickens me.

This is sick that our own government and it's agencies did this to themselves, blamed a bunch of framed patsies all so they can goto war in the middle east.

Star and flagged this post.


I used to believe the official story but I decided to research a little and the truth is out there. I recommend that you new users and readers research outside of these forums and dont make the mistake of using one source for your answers.


Remember that the real terrorists still have people on the internet selling lies on forums like this. Thats not a lie.


God bless you and the victims of 911, and the wars the came before and after 911.



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