something evolutionists can not explain

Originally posted by reticledc
reply to post by Spiritfilled

 

Define: consciousness.

Consciousness, requires energy, be it physical, or spiritual.
The physical universe is made up of energy, vibrating at certain frequencies to coalesce into matter.
The spirit is the well spring from which our consciousness flows.
The spirit is also known as our source, or our energy.
Energy can be encoded with information.
A simple stone is made up of structured molecules, which are atoms aligned with one another, which in turn are made of energy, which have certain patterns of frequency.
In other words, they have an informational blueprint inherent in their existance.
The same can be said of all matter in the universe, as well as the varying frequencies of energy.

If everything is made from the same stuff, they then share a common trait, even if it is only at the quantum level.

Consciousness can be interpreted as biological, electrical and chemical messages sent back and forth throughout the brain.
All of these stimuli have one inherrant trait. They convey informational energy to the array of tissues that give us awareness.
The energy is the same a mentioned before as is the matter of the brain.
Consciousness, while difficult to accurately explain in terms that everyone can completely understand, it is not lost to anyone.
We are, therefore we think.
if one were to believe in a creator, one would have to rationalize the fact that that creator gave us the wonderful gift of free will.
Free will coincides with thought, as it allows our mind to conceptualize, anything it can.............conceptualize.
The inherent flaw, as adequately describes by so many, is that our consciousness is limited, by societal, and religious controls, that encourage nothing more than blind faith and the reduction of free will.
It is also admitted, by religious influences, that the "creator" gave us free will, yet all of the religions of the world seek to inhibit that gift as much as possible.
I wonder, what precisely the motivation for that could be?
It is certainly not to increase our spirituality.
Scientifically, all conclusions must be reached by leaps of faith. Once discovered, true or otherwise, answers become the questions.
On a personal note.
I yield my beliefs to no one. If I am to believe anything, it is because I discovered it for myself. No one, and I mean no one has the right to try and make me believe anything.
Which is why I say to anyone reading this, don't take my word for it. Discover the answers for yourself, as I can only "show" you mine.

[edit on 8/21/2009 by reticledc]

even if the protons electrons and neutrons really are simply made of energy (which is an unproven theory) the fact is, for such an amazingly complex superstructure of:
energy < quarks < protons/electrons/neutrons < atoms < molecules < organnells < cells < organs < human body

to have organized themselves the way they are now is impossible even atoms could not have come about without the electron and proton having the exact charge they do know (if they were even one billionth of a degree difference all matter would disintegrate)


[edit on 21-8-2009 by Spiritfilled]

Evolution has never denied the possibility of non-material components.
Like all sciences though, it requires proof and peer review.

Originally posted by Byteman
Evolution has never denied the possibility of non-material components.
Like all sciences though, it requires proof and peer review.

alright, perhaps my argument is more against atheism than evolution you could say. Believing that God guided evolution over millions of years is alright. but the belief that life arose on its own is nonsense.

reply to post by Spiritfilled

but the belief that life arose on its own is nonsense.

Abiogenesis suggests a compelling argument. It says that over those millions of years on primordial earth, all that organic matter in the open seas and oceans managed to form a semi-living thing which could replicate. That thing is going to be RNA looking at the latest research. Crucially the Miller experiment in the 50's showed that all sorts of complex amino structures would form in a kind of 'soup'.

We're still learning ofcourse and abiogenesis has a wee way to go yet before it's near as rigorous as evolution.

reply to post by readerone

Man, that's brilliant. It deserves a thread of its own, though it would help if you could take a bit more trouble to make what you're saying more easily comprehensible.

I say order and awareness are not quite the same until the former is combined with homeostasis. The thermostat is the paradigm. What say you?

Originally posted by OhZone
Apparently none of you read my post on page 2.

I read it.

Why do you think it merits a reply? Goswami is not saying anything original, nor bringing any new evidence to back up an obvious, yet very trivial assertion. Of course the universe is aware. It is aware because it contains you, and you are aware. You are the universe looking at itself. But that doesn't mean diddly-squat in metaphysical terms.

[edit on 21/8/09 by Astyanax]

Originally posted by FantasmaTaans

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
Computers CANNOT be programmed to feel pain, whether it is useful or not, there is no such technology, since pain cannot be felt by unconscious matter (protons electrons, atoms) of which computers are made.

That's the problem though we don't have the technology NOW. It's called Moore's law...

What? Don't drop the ball, FantasmaTaans.

It's easy to programme a computer to feel. In fact it doesn't even have to be a computer. A simple thermostat 'feels' heat and reacts accordingly (see above: 'the thermostat is the paradign').

The OP doesn't realize that the pain he feels when his finger 'goes wabbling back to the fire', as Kipling put it, is just a series of electrochemical events occurring within the autonomous self-regulating system he calls his body. Consciousness is just a by-product of the mechanisms of perception.

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
evolutionists have never been able to get around this one simple point (actually there are countless points they cannot get around, but that is beyond the scope of this thread) the fact is...

MATTER IS NOT CONSCIOUS, NOR CAN IT BECOME CONSCIOUS

evolutionist cannot get around this simple point. we are conscious of our surroundings, and can feel joy and pain. we are aware of our existance.

even with the most advanced technology, the world will not be able to create a computer that can fell pain and pleasure, nor be aware of its own existance. It may be programmed to act human in every way, however it will never be anything other than a clever assembly of lifeless atoms.

if we humans are made of matter only, as the evolutionists suppose, then we would not be able to feel anything, any pain or pleasure, or be aware of our existance.

the fact is, that we as humans have a nonmaterial part of us called a spirit. all animals that are conscious have a spirit as well. This enables us to feel pain and pleasure, and be self aware.

we are more than just a complex arrangement of matter. a human is a merger of spirit controlling matter.

evolution is part of a great satanic conspiracy to turn the world away from christ.

know you know, you must turn to God and repent.

be saved from this evil world in Jesus name!

How about I not repent? To be honest because of you I'm going to try and 'sin' harder! Go out of my way to 'sin'. Tell your imaginary friend its welcome.

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
the belief that life arose on its own is nonsense.

And that will always result in the conundrum of "where did God come from?

Originally posted by Astyanax

Originally posted by FantasmaTaans

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
Computers CANNOT be programmed to feel pain, whether it is useful or not, there is no such technology, since pain cannot be felt by unconscious matter (protons electrons, atoms) of which computers are made.

That's the problem though we don't have the technology NOW. It's called Moore's law...

What? Don't drop the ball, FantasmaTaans.

It's easy to programme a computer to feel. In fact it doesn't even have to be a computer. A simple thermostat 'feels' heat and reacts accordingly (see above: 'the thermostat is the paradign').

The OP doesn't realize that the pain he feels when his finger 'goes wabbling back to the fire', as Kipling put it, is just a series of electrochemical events occurring within the autonomous self-regulating system he calls his body. Consciousness is just a by-product of the mechanisms of perception.

wow, you believe a thermostat "feels" heat? try getting that peer reviewed

Originally posted by AstyanaxA simple thermostat 'feels' heat and reacts accordingly

You rrrrrreally want to learn a bit about thermostats before claiming that one again.

It doesn't "feel" a damn thing, it is nothing more than a mechanical (spring) or liquid (mercury) reaction to changing temperature.

reply to post by Spiritfilled


A thermostat "feels" heat in the same way your eyes "see" light. That's how sense organs work.

[edit on 21-8-2009 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by Spiritfilled

 

A thermostat "feels" heat in the same way your eyes "see" light. That's how sense organs work.

[edit on 21-8-2009 by Welfhard]

so the thermostat is conscious of the heat as we are conscious of the light?

reply to post by Spiritfilled

No they detect heat like we detect light. That's what "to feel" means. To be conscious of feeling is a whole other thing entirely.

[edit on 21-8-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by Spiritfilled


I think that someone needs to become better informed.
Protons, electrons and neutrons, etc.. all have charges.
Charges occur, when a particle contains or conducts energy.
That has been proven, for your edification.

As far as how energy has been organized in such a way as to become matter
is anybody's guess.


Your point of "evolutionists have never been able to get around this one simple point (actually there are countless points they cannot get around, but that is beyond the scope of this thread)" is a valid point, I will acknowledge that, however the other side of the coin bears some revealing as well.

Creationist have never been able to get around this one simple point,
MATTER IS NOT CONSCIOUS, NOR CAN IT BECOME CONSCIOUS .

We are all made of matter, more precisely, energy, and we are conscious, are we not?


High school point being illustrated here:
If something burns, what is happening?
Rapid oxidation of combustible materials.
Through the rapid oxidation, the matter is broken down into its elemental form, and as a result, light and heat are being released.
Burn something long enough and 100% efficiently, all that is left is Carbon.
The rest of the matter has been transformed back into what it really is. Energy, in the form of light and heat.

Before I ditch this thread, and move onto more productive nonsense, I would really like to observe your efforts to define consciousness, evolution, matter energy, and the links between them.

By the way, even for an apparently religious icon such as yourself, it is rather ignorant to exclude any possibilities, given the fact that there is not even one shred of evidence for or to the contrary.

Originally posted by reticledc
reply to post by Spiritfilled

 

Your point of "evolutionists have never been able to get around this one simple point (actually there are countless points they cannot get around, but that is beyond the scope of this thread)" is a valid point, I will acknowledge that, however the other side of the coin bears some revealing as well.

Creationist have never been able to get around this one simple point,
MATTER IS NOT CONSCIOUS, NOR CAN IT BECOME CONSCIOUS .

We are all made of matter, more precisely, energy, and we are conscious, are we not?

we are made of more than matter. we are also made of spirit, the seat of awareness and consciousness.

Please take your preachy crap somewhere else. We deal in facts here, sometimes conjecture,sometimes hypthesis, but NEVER, EVER Christian dogma that has little or no basis in fact(I wish,anyway). The simple fact of the matter is that you are conscious, you feel,and to attribute this to god is just plain stupid. Anything you Christian nuts cant explain is always EVIL. Anything scientists cant explain must be god. Very good logic there.....NOT!!!
BTW Please explain how you now that humans are composed of "spirit", what is it? what does it look like?, how is it measured?, And dont jut say "cause the bible says so". That doesnt wash.
Oh yeah, I am made of matter and I am conscious according to the definition of the term. Just thought I'd point that out.
[edit on 21-8-2009 by jameslewin]

[edit on 21-8-2009 by jameslewin]

reply to post by Spiritfilled

we are made of more than matter. we are also made of spirit, the seat of awareness and consciousness.

Says you but you have no more proof of that than what you claim "evolutionists" not have have.

Originally posted by Spiritfilled

Originally posted by reticledc
reply to post by Spiritfilled

 

CREATIONISTS...... have never been able to get around this one simple point,
MATTER IS NOT CONSCIOUS, NOR CAN IT BECOME CONSCIOUS .

we are made of more than matter. we are also made of spirit, the seat of awareness and consciousness.

Originally posted by reticledc
reply to post by Spiritfilled

 

Consciousness, requires energy, be it physical, or spiritual.
The physical universe is made up of energy, vibrating at certain frequencies to coalesce into matter.
The spirit is the well spring from which our consciousness flows.
The spirit is also known as our source, or our energy.

Thank you for using an altered form of my prior statements, concurrently verifying my own ideas, and rendering your own notions as irrelevant.
You are exceedingly skilled at pointing out that you are incapable of original thought.

Theory and conjecture, based on relevant information, as much grounded in reality of facts as can possibly be made by my own limited resources.
I must thank you, for the challenge to express myself.
It is actually non consequential to me if you comprehend me or not.
I am expressing an inherent trait of creativity, and intuitive conjecture.
We should all be so luck to be challenged by ones own self.
Once again, Thank you.
You have made my day.



[edit on 8/21/2009 by reticledc]

Glitchy double posting going on.



[edit on 8/21/2009 by reticledc]