something evolutionists can not explain

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Simply because the soul exists, does not mean it comes from God. There are any number of different theories that could explain this phenomina.

For the record I don't believe in Evolution, at least not that textbook example. I also don 't believe in any sort of monotheistic God, including Jesus.

IMO Earth is sort of a testing ground in a series of progressive tests. There are multiple different realities and dimensions where beings exist, this seems to be the bridge between the "matter" and "light" dimensions.

Let's not forget that evolutionists and creationists are not the only ones who can be right in this. As far as I am concerned we will never know the answer as we are limited by the vehicle which is the human body.

It can only do so much.

~Keeper

i'm not neccesarily arguing in this thread that the god that created us is the christian one (though that's what i believe), that will be left for another thread perhaps. what i'm trying to say is that this textbook anti-supernaturalism propaganda we are being fed in school is complete bs. there was a supernatural force that created man. it did not "just happen" with a big bag. this fact should be clear.

Originally posted by Nohup

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
MATTER IS NOT CONSCIOUS, NOR CAN IT BECOME CONSCIOUS

Are you psychic or something? How could you ever know this?

even with the most advanced technology, the world will not be able to create a computer that can fell pain and pleasure, nor be aware of its own existence. It may be programmed to act human in every way, however it will never be anything other than a clever assembly of lifeless atoms.

Can you prove to me that you're conscious? It's harder than you think.

if we humans are made of matter only, as the evolutionists suppose, then we would not be able to feel anything, any pain or pleasure, or be aware of our existence.

That's just an assumption.

the fact is, that we as humans have a nonmaterial part of us called a spirit. all animals that are conscious have a spirit as well. This enables us to feel pain and pleasure, and be self aware.

Prove it. Show me a spirit.

evolution is part of a great satanic conspiracy to turn the world away from christ.

Perhaps, but if you think about it, isn't a "Christ" figure something of an evolved being? A cross between an enlightened man and a deity designed to do a certain job? That's evolution. Change over time that adapts to new environments.

if you need everything "proven 100%" to you, then there are better forums than ATS.
you can do the searching yourself, and find that your conscious, don't play dumb. you dont' need physical proof of everything to belive it. you should belive it because it makes sense with the facts, wheras darwinism needs a shave off of our culture with occams razor

reply to post by Spiritfilled


and where is your proof???

Originally posted by PsychoHazard

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
evolutionists have never been able to get around this one simple point (actually there are countless points they cannot get around, but that is beyond the scope of this thread) the fact is...

MATTER IS NOT CONSCIOUS, NOR CAN IT BECOME CONSCIOUS

evolutionist cannot get around this simple point. we are conscious of our surroundings, and can feel joy and pain. we are aware of our existance.

*raises hand*

Um... yeah... ok... I'm an evolutionist, and you're wrong. Or, more to the point, you have a lack of understanding of the theory of evolution. Evolution deals with systems, not consciousness, even in the case of biological systems as I assume you are concerned with here. It isn't that we cannot get around it, it is quite simply that consciousness is a separate matter entirely. Also, I would like to ask if you are an advanced AI or some sort of energy being? You appear to be conscious, and I am guessing based on your prose style and emphasis on certain subjects that you are capable of feeling, so by your own logic, you must either not be made of matter, or your logic is flawed. Perhaps what you meant to say was that we do not yet understand what causes consciousness, nor how to reproduce it except through biological reproduction? Please elucidate further, if you would, as I find your post to be most perplexing and I would like to think that as a rational thinking being, who is posting on a site where "deny ignorance" is the byword, that you would prefer clarity to obfuscation.

Thank you,
-PsychoHazard

evolution has been used constantly to shove away beliefs of God as "unscientific". yes, it is very related. evolutionism seeks to establish the origins of man as being a product of material reactions alone. this is sillyness however, that something so vastly integral to humans as consciousness of can be ignored in an explanation of the origins of man.

[edit on 19-8-2009 by Spiritfilled]

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
and yes, as another forrumer mentioned, the point of this topic is to indeed to proselytize the way of Christ.

You're not doing very well at it, are you? All you've achieved so far is to make the Way of Christ look like the Way of Stupidity, Ignorance and Superstition. How many souls do you think that's going to win for the Lord?

Or does He only want intellectually challenged disciples? He did liken them to sheep, after all.

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
there another evolutionist goes assuming that creationists know nothing about science.

How can you call it an assumption when the evidence is everywhere one looks? Remember Rev. Paley's argument, 'the appearance of design is evidence of a designer'? By analogy, the appearance of ignorance must be evidence of ignoramuses. No?

Originally posted by Unit541
Spiritfilled, do you care to respond to some of the previous responses?

Now, now, don't tease the poor fellow. He's fitted with loudspeakers, not with microphones.

[edit on 20/8/09 by Astyanax]

Hmmm...I noticed a lot of pro evolutionists mentioning the OPs assumpitions. Yet, they make assumptions themselves.

Also. I have yet to see anyone debunk what the actual thread is about. They have merely ran in circles saying 'prove you are concious, prove this, prove that'. If you are a debunker, by all means, debunk.

Again, where has our conciousness come from?


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
Also. I have yet to see anyone debunk what the actual thread is about.

That was covered on the first page - the OP is proselytizing, period :

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
the point of this topic is to indeed to proselytize the way of Christ.

evolution is part of a great satanic conspiracy to turn the world away from christ. know you know, you must turn to God and repent. be saved from this evil world in Jesus name!

CHRISTIANITY
The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie, who was his own father, can make you live forever, if you symbolically eat his flesh & telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul, that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake, to eat from a magical tree... yeah makes perfect sense.

Maybe plants have consciousness too, it's just verrry verrry slow?

Interesting thread

upon reading this whole thread...

I have to laugh a bit , its so well written , so well done and yet the tiny little thing missing from it all ...

it miss's one tiny detail .

if infinity is the infinite nature of space and finite location/matter.
and
if eternity is the infinite nature of time and enrgy change/delta .
then is/does
god the infinite nature of order and awareness knowing/soul ? .

given this definision of awareness...

would awareness have the same relationship to god as a atom to eternity? , or a atom to infinity?

if this is reasonable .

then would the same test for awareness be equaly true?

you can have one relationship but not both , velocity , or location ? something like that ...

I hope I am not being to weird , but it seems logical to me even so.

just a thought

reply to post by readerone


Made sense to me

One thing I've pondered is whether there's some kind of universal consciousness that encompasses all things living or otherwise. And if so, is our own individual awareness the part of that consciousness that we can see with our own senses?

An analogy: when I stub my toe, the nerve cells in my toe register pain. I as a whole also feel that pain, but the nerve cells don't know or care about the rest of me as a whole.

Could that universal consciousness be called God?

reply to post by Spiritfilled


Incredibly I have to disagree, who the hell says that matter cannot be conscious or become it ?

What exactly is consciousness ? is the dictionary description of consciousness the final word ?

How do I know that particles are not consciousness themselves ?

is my consciousness in someway separate from the matter I am made up of ?

Please explain

reply to post by Spiritfilled


"evolutionists"

Brilliant! First time i've ever heard this term. Is this what the "creationists" now call people who are capable of rational and scientific analysis?

may I suggest ... from a curtain point of veiw .

there is a planet with oxygen in the atmosphere , so toxic , and reactive ... that plasma ( fire) bursts from common crystals that grow ( plants ) nearly every where .

this planet is so hostil , toxic , reactive , and unstable ... that simply going there will burn your ship up entering the gas's

there are crystals that will attack you with out reason or logic .

it has an ocean of the universal solvent ( water) that is so volitil , it will oxidize iron in only a few years ( rust ) into non-exsistance .

so hostil , reactive and violent ... that the only awareness that can evolve there ... has a limited life span of only fewer than 200 years at most ...

the hardiest only a few thousand years ( trees)....

may I also suggest .

awareness is order , they are nearly interchangable words .

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
evolution has been used constantly to shove away beliefs of God as "unscientific".

That's because beliefs in God are unscientific. Unless and until someone provides representative samples of God, there can be no empirical testing via the scientific method.

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
yes, it is very related.

Actually, no, it's not.

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
evolutionism seeks to establish the origins of man as being a product of material reactions alone.

Again, no. Sorry, but you appear to have very little grasp of what science is, nor a reasonable understanding of what evolution is actually about. First, evolution does not attempt to explain the origins, but rather the progression from one point to another. It attempts to explain how a species can progress and change into another over time and what environmental factors may have spurred the change. It makes no provision, nor does it try to explain the origins of man in the sense that I believe that you are using the term. Allow me to employ a metaphor to clarify a little. If you were to take a trip from Topeka to Alameda, evolution would try to explain how you got from Topeka to Alameda, what choices you made, what route you took, and possibly what factors may have influenced those choice. It does not try to explain why you were in Topeka to begin with, nor why Topeka existed for you to be there, nor how you heard about Alameda, nor any of the other questions that one might ask about the Origins of the Trip from Topeka to Alameda.

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
this is sillyness however, that something so vastly integral to humans as consciousness of can be ignored in an explanation of the origins of man.

Again, evolution does not try to explain the origins of man in the sense in which you are using it. Consciousness does not even enter into the equation.

Apparently none of you read my post on page 2.
So here it is again - enhanced with bold.

Originally posted by OhZone

As to consciousness….the Universe IS consciousness. Everything has consciousness.

Here is some food for thought:

“..1. The Self-Aware Universe, Goswami (Tarcher Putnam, 1995)
From Publishers Weekly
Consciousness, not matter, is the ground of all existence, declares University of Oregon physicist Goswami, echoing the mystic sages of his native India. He holds that the universe is self-aware, and that consciousness creates the physical world. Calling this theory "monistic idealism," he claims it is not only "the basis of all religions worldwide" but also the correct philosophy for modern science. Once people give up the assumption that there is an objective reality independent of consciousness, the paradoxes of quantum physics are explainable, contends Goswami, writing with his wife and Reed ( Building the Future from Our Past ). He also applies his hypothesis to the so-called mind-body schism, which he attempts to heal. Sketching a model of the self, this demanding but rewarding treatise uses analogies from the "new physics" to throw light on choice, free will, creativity, the unconscious and paths to spiritual growth. Illustrated.”
conscious order

“According to this view, there is nowhere we can draw a line between conscious and non-conscious entities; there is a trace of sentience, however slight, in viruses, molecules, atoms, and even elementary particles.
Some argue this implies that rocks perceive the world around them, perhaps have thoughts and feelings, and enjoy an inner mental life similar to human beings. This is clearly an absurd suggestion, and not one that was ever intended. If a bacterium’s experience is a billionth of the richness and intensity of human being’s, the degree of experience in the minerals of a rock might be a billion times dimmer still. They would possess none of the qualities of human consciousness–just the faintest possible glimmer of sentience.”

consciousness

Another thing you all really should understand.
There is no such thing as "supernatural".
There is order in the Universe and everything happens by the laws of that order.

[edit on 20-8-2009 by OhZone]

matter as y0u think does not exist...we are pure conciousness.

Call me narrow minded or whatever you want but OP´s first post made me giggle....



[edit on 20-8-2009 by Theomi]

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
evolutionists have never been able to get around this one simple point (actually there are countless points they cannot get around, but that is beyond the scope of this thread) the fact is...

MATTER IS NOT CONSCIOUS, NOR CAN IT BECOME CONSCIOUS

I actually believe matter is conscious, so this is not a point or a fact but only something you believe.

Originally posted by Spiritfilled

evolution is part of a great satanic conspiracy to turn the world away from christ.

know you know, you must turn to God and repent.

be saved from this evil world in Jesus name!

Just for the record, when I was chatting with god a while ago, I offered to repent but he just sort of laughed and asked me why I would do something like that since no one actually needs saving. He was right, it's a great world he created here, full of love and joy and beauty, even though there are a whole lot of whack-jobs trying to blow it up or take it over or whatever.

Just to show you how seriously I'm taking all this, I think if you change one letter of you post from "you must turn to God and repent" to "you must turn to God and repeat" -- you got the making of the start of a great dance move.