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Obama Protesters = Patriots with Guns, Bush Protesters = Criminals with T-Shirts

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posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 06:46 PM
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reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 


I guess you and I just disagree.

No biggie.




posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by anyone
The point that BH is making is that in both cases the protesters are trying to push buttons, or stir the pot and in both cases have every right to do so. Yet the bush protesters just wore anti-Bush t-shirts not guns and were arrested. Arrested for dissidence.


Thanks for getting it.



It is a distraction from the real issue of health care reform and frankly, I think, it's childish.


I'm thinking it's a distraction, too. And that's a much more important issue, IMO.


Originally posted by drwizardphd
Or are you just being purposefully disagreeable with the OP?


I've come to the conclusion that that I did strike quite a few nerves with my subject matter and that's why people are trying to deflect from the original subject, making it look like I have something against firearms, which couldn't be further from the truth.


Originally posted by mattifikation
We already have at least two other threads about people bringing guns to the rallies, but for you people this isn't about debate. It's about making noise, being heard, and getting your jollies off with all the virtual HIGH FIVES you're getting from the other brain dead aisle mongers that have invaded this rapidly degrading swamp of a web site.


Ouch!
Great way with words.
But I think it's a little harsh. This thread isn't about the FACT that people brought guns to a rally. It's about something deeper than that.



But that's not the *real* purpose of this thread, now is it? The real purpose is to be as sanctimonious and confrontational as you can possibly get, isn't it?


For what it's worth, MY purpose was to point out a hypocrisy (which people do on this site EVERY DAY) and to say that I appreciate the fact that Obama didn't have these guys arrested. Maybe I appear sanctimonious and confrontational, but that wasn't my intent. Who would TRY to appear sanctimonious?



Maybe the OP has an agenda. Maybe somebody makes a bit of money on the side keeping the sheeple masses divided? Just maybe?


This isn't the first time I've been accused of being a disinfo agent and I'm sure it won't be the last.



Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
The arrests or non-arrests are the decision of an independent police force, or the Secret Service.
...
The Secret Service makes decisions based upon THEIR determination of a threat to the President, and as to whether an arrest is warranted.


You don't think someone in the administration has any say in how the SS "protects" the president? Why would they behave so differently under the two different administrations?



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 07:13 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 





You don't think someone in the administration has any say in how the SS "protects" the president? Why would they behave so differently under the two different administrations?

Quite honestly, BH, I don't think they are. You are taking one set of incidents and trying to make the case. In 8 years of the Bush administration, there were many cases where people who protested Bush were NOI arrested.

Remember this case?


The police officers who stopped Oklahoma City motorist Chip Harrison and confiscated a sign from his car told him he has a right to his beliefs, but the Secret Service "could construe this as a threat against President Obama," according to the incident report released this morning.


As you can see, it is the Secret Service's assessment that is the issue. This is completely independent of the Administration.

Many people, predisposed to a belief, look for correlations, and then make false conclusions concerning causality. In order to prove your proposition, you would have to perform a controlled study, to prove causality, namely that the administration is responsible for the arrest or non-arrest of protesters.


PATTERNS OF CAUSALITY IN THE MIND Unfortunately, the human mind is built to try and subconsciously establish links between many contrasting pieces of information. The brain often tries to construct patterns from randomness, so jumps to conclusions, and assumes that a relationship exists. Overcoming this tendency is part of academic training of students and academics in most fields, from physics to the arts. The ability to evaluate data, subjectively, is absolutely crucial to academic success. Read more: www.experiment-resources.com...


www.experiment-resources.com...



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 07:21 PM
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Its pretty obvious what the intent is...the right wing politicians are supporting wingnuts like limblah and beck to keep talking their talk, they cater to the most extreme parts of the party, the far right loopville element and convince them that nazis have slipped into the white house.

demonstrate someone carrying a gun in a area the president will be in (I have a hunch that if you follow the first person back, he was paid on the sly to do that)...and suddenly every 4 toothed redneck will be showing up to wherever obama is with guns...the hope is eventually chaos will ensue and someone will get a lucky shot off before the gun holders are all sniped...then...erm, profit for someone.

Ever consider this to be a double folded conspiracy theory? aka, the gun opposition is secretly fueling these gun nuts to show up...hopeing that they will go crazy and then suddenly they have one of the greatest cases on why guns should be made illegal? I mean, the voting would be reactionary and landslide in favor of a gun ban on all but like...muskets.


Wake up and think about what your demanding is a patriotic thing to do...who are you truely playing into? scratch the surface and you may find a different perception of the truth



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 07:27 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 





Its pretty obvious what the intent is...the right wing politicians are supporting wingnuts like limblah and beck to keep talking their talk, they cater to the most extreme parts of the party, the far right loopville element and convince them that nazis have slipped into the white house. demonstrate someone carrying a gun in a area the president will be in (I have a hunch that if you follow the first person back, he was paid on the sly to do that)...and suddenly every 4 toothed redneck will be showing up to wherever obama is with guns...the hope is eventually chaos will ensue and someone will get a lucky shot off before the gun holders are all sniped...then...erm, profit for someone.

Wow, thanks for that non-partisan, well thought out post about the original topic, namely whether arrests or non-arrests are related to a specific administration.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 07:35 PM
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reply to post by pdpayne0418
 
i agree pd i knew somebody was gonna clober this guy .


I think this is a bit of your own BS propaganda. They were not arrested for protesting, but for trespassing. How about following your own advice?
there's nothing wrong in this post.s&f all legit.

bh


Obama didn't have these guys arrested

not quit sure i want to say this, but i probly should.
for obama to know people had guns out there, and to go head and deliver.
imo i see the man in a far better light now. oh hell, i'll just say it
that showed me the guy has guts. definetly can't say anything like that
about bush.
in fact that changed my opinion of the man, and i'm happy to say it.

[edit on 19-8-2009 by randyvs]



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 07:36 PM
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what i find interesting is people who want to say these protesters against obama are racists and extremists because now instead of t-shirts they are bringing guns

i believe its not just obama that people are protesting

i feel this has accumulated from all the frustration from the bush administration spilling over and joining up with the frustration with obama

these people bringing guns to these protests are just products of people becoming increasingly upset with the way things are working

so when people are saying why didnt they treat bush that way, well i think they are treating bush that way

whether we like it or not, a lot of problems for obama have been handed down to him by bush

and now its all come together to overwhelm the american people


i am absolutely proud of these people standing up finally though, i wish it had happened sooner

hopefully this trend will continue, both for the protesters and the enforcers, so far it seems the enforcers are letting the protesters protest, and i hope that continues and violence does not take place

but at least now if violence is started, then the people will have the ability to try to fight back


also, some people are saying bringing these guns to protest is just going to escalate things

well i dont believe its the protesters escalating things, i believe it is the govt and law enforcement who have escalated things by increasing their arsenals in the name of combating gangs drugs and terrorism, so now if the average person wants to defend himself against true tyranny he must be prepared to have the same self defense capabilities as those who are fighting these gangs and terrorists and taking part in the drug war

simply put the government escalated things long ago and now it seems the american people are just trying to catch up



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 08:25 PM
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BH this was a much needed thread and you may have read me saying the same thing yesterday in a single post without as much as a decent reply, it is agrevating to see the horrible way that people are still showing their suppport for bush administration and lack of support for the new one.

Too many people are still seeing this as a black and white issue, an issue of Democrats and Republicans.

If we have learned anything in the past 12 years it is that as long as the sides continue to be drawn America is going to continue to flow in a downward spiral.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 08:30 PM
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Originally posted by downtown436
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 

Cops don't like messing with armed people. People that have an AR slung over their shoulder are much less likely to get tazed.

So maybe anti-war protesters can learn something here. If you back up your first amendment rights with your second amendment rights, maybe you are a little more secure in your 4th amendment rights.




My sentiments exactly.
I have never grouped all the liberal protesters as unpatriotic. I think there are some on the liberal side who do fall in that category, as i feel with the right. SKin heads and nazi's are as unpatriotic as you can get, IMO. And most people would consider me heavily conservative and I feel that way.

If these left wingers who go out and protest would be carrying firearms, they would see less police burtality, but i think most of them want more of a police reaction because in their minds that makes them feel like they are right. Or they are just to big of pussies to know how to handle a gun, or do anything more than yell and not shower to show how much they hate/love something.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 08:32 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 


I agree. And as a gun owner, I think these people taking guns to these rallies are idiots and doing a dis service to rational gun owners. One of these morons is going to do something really stupid and ruin it for everyone else.

This happens all the time. One idiot ruins it for everyone else. You see it at work, in our laws, etc. Here at my work some moron spills a can of soda and not we have to use approved cups.

I understand that it is legal to carry your gun to these events but it is not smart. Many of the concealed weapon laws prohibit gun owner from taking guns in schools, churches and bars as well, the reason being, no good can come from it.

With great power comes great responsibility. Carrying a weapon publicly is a great power and in my opinion these people are not acting responsibly. It only takes one crazy to grab that gun from its owner and start shooting people.

I am way off topic and I apologize, the point of this thread is to show the hypocrisy of people being arrested during the bush admin for wearing t-shirts and people being allowed to carry weapons and not be challenged. I dont think either should be arrested. but I think wearing a shirt or carrying a sign that shows your stance is a much more responsible thing to do at a public rally.

I'm glad these people are not being arrested, but i still think it is incredibly irresponsible and makes responsible gun owners look bad.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 08:37 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


For what it's worth, I don't *really* think you're a disinformation agent. And as I said, it's nice to see that the folks with the guns weren't harassed by the piggies. But really... isn't it obvious that this thread is just going to be another dozen or so pages of the same crowd of insane leftists and the same crowd of right-wing nuts calling each other idiots?

I'm almost positive at this point that there's at least one person on each side of the debate who's intentionally fanning flames around here. They're getting everyone all riled up about nothing, and the result is that ATS as a whole has gotten too stupid to look at anything objectively. And it's not just this issue, it's every political issue that comes up. There are a few people around here who ALWAYS take the standard official position of one of the two big political parties, and those trolls ALWAYS spew the same talking points - aka mouth poop - as their respective talking media heads.

At any rate, what I'm getting at, is we should stop feeding these living hate factories any more fuel to feed the fire with.

And Yeah. I do give harsh criticism of this place, but I've wasted a good chunk of the last few years of my life reading and, to a lesser extent, posting on these forums. It used to be enjoyable. People used to debate one another instead of insult one another. I'd like for that time to not end up all being a waste. I think the real test is whether or not these people acknowledge the accusations that they're doing it on purpose. Glad to see that you did... it means you're not actually hiding anything (I think.)

I'm tired of posting how I feel on any given subject, and the next thing I know I'm either a "left wing idiot" or a "right wing idiot." I'm not on a wing. I'm my own person, with my own opinions, and I think anyone who's climbed out onto a wing to be the poster child of political extremism should frankly fall the hell off the plane. But now I'm rambling. I should stop. I just get so frustrated.


The whole issue of the people bringing guns to the rally is a non-issue. I wish people would see that. It's a non issue. It's not something we should be so divided over. Nobody shot up the place, so it's not an issue of "those people are crazy for bringing guns!" because crazy people would have shot up the place. Nobody got arrested, so it's not an issue of "they were infringing on his rights!" because they weren't even bothered while they were there.

And yet, even though it's a complete non-issue, the extremists are all over this story like stink on a butt. Divide and conquer, mission successful. Victory is in their grasp.

[edit on 19-8-2009 by mattifikation]



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 08:39 PM
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reply to post by randyvs
 



not quit sure i want to say this, but i probly should.
for obama to know people had guns out there, and to go head and deliver.
imo i see the man in a far better light now. oh hell, i'll just say it
that showed me the guy has guts. definetly can't say anything like that
about bush.
in fact that changed my opinion of the man, and i'm happy to say it.


I feel the same way, i'm glad he stayed and delivered, I think it shows more than guts. It shows he is willing to allow people to express themselves and show disagreement with his position(even if they are misguided in their dissent). He is willing to be the bigger person.

But I assure you, the minute something bad happens because someone brought a gun to one of these rallies. It will be lock down central. There will be an uproar of people wanting to see public gun laws banned and they might try to go farther. who knows. We lose freedoms when people act irresponsibly.

I think taking a weapon to a peaceful, public event, brings the level of the conversation down a notch and only serves to hurt the credibility of the people bringing the gun.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 08:45 PM
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reply to post by thebeet
 



If these left wingers who go out and protest would be carrying firearms, they would see less police burtality, but i think most of them want more of a police reaction because in their minds that makes them feel like they are right. Or they are just to big of pussies to know how to handle a gun, or do anything more than yell and not shower to show how much they hate/love something.


I dont think its that they are pussies or cant handle a weapon. I think its about keeping things civil. Its about raising the bar and showing dissent without resorting to violence. As much as I didnt agree with the actions of the Bush admin, i would not condone anyone bringing a weapon to one of his events. I think it is unjustified and pointless. It lowers the bar of our discussions and puts us one step closer to violence. And not the kind of violence that results in a black eye, the kind that results in people being killed, all because they are opposed to health care.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 08:48 PM
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Originally posted by mattifikation

The whole issue of the people bringing guns to the rally is a non-issue. I wish people would see that. It's a non issue. It's not something we should be so divided over. Nobody shot up the place, so it's not an issue of "those people are crazy for bringing guns!" because crazy people would have shot up the place. Nobody got arrested, so it's not an issue of "they were infringing on his rights!" because they weren't even bothered while they were there.

And yet, even though it's a complete non-issue, the extremists are all over this story like stink on a butt. Divide and conquer, mission successful. Victory is in their grasp.

[edit on 19-8-2009 by mattifikation]


It actually is a big issue and here's why.

and also because of iamcamouflages last post.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 08:48 PM
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Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
As you can see, it is the Secret Service's assessment that is the issue. This is completely independent of the Administration.


It's possible that you are correct, but I do find it hard to believe that a president in this day and age has NO influence over directing the Secret Service as to how much he wants to be exposed to and protected from. I can see where the SS would have authority over the president's wishes in certain situations (much like a medical Dr. in a military situation) but if the President said, "I don't want to see any protesters" (for example) I think it would be the SS's job to prevent him from seeing them and I think they would comply.


Originally posted by randyvs
not quit sure i want to say this, but i probly should.
for obama to know people had guns out there, and to go head and deliver.
imo i see the man in a far better light now. oh hell, i'll just say it
that showed me the guy has guts.


It's not popular to say anything nice about Obama, but hang tough.
Be strong.



Originally posted by antar
BH this was a much needed thread and you may have read me saying the same thing yesterday


Actually my husband mentioned the hypocrisy to me and I decided to make a thread. I'm kind of surprised more people aren't talking about it.



Too many people are still seeing this as a black and white issue, an issue of Democrats and Republicans.


Yes. Exactly! And assume that any positive word about Obama is coming out of the mouth of a Democrat shill or something. This is not a black and white issue to me. We have to be discerning and use discrimination instead of just thinking everyone is evil.



Originally posted by mattifikation
For what it's worth, I don't *really* think you're a disinformation agent.


Cool.



But really... isn't it obvious that this thread is just going to be another dozen or so pages of the same crowd of insane leftists and the same crowd of right-wing nuts calling each other idiots?


Not if I can help it. What you decide to contribute to that is up to you.



At any rate, what I'm getting at, is we should stop feeding these living hate factories any more fuel to feed the fire with.


If the hate-factories feed on mouth-poop, there's really only so much a person can do about that. And my part is to contribute as high quality posts and ideas as I can manage. I will do my part. Everyone else's parts are up to them.



I'm tired of posting how I feel on any given subject, and the next thing I know I'm either a "left wing idiot" or a "right wing idiot."


I hear ya.
I recently returned from a "break" from ATS. Sometimes a person just needs a break and to come back at it with a new perspective.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 08:49 PM
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reply to post by thebeet
 


Uh no you got that wrong beet.

Those 39 protestors were by all means allowed to protest and voice out their opinion. They got removed and arrested however when they tried to enter Notre, which was holding a private event with the president. You have your rights to voice out protest, but you dont have a right to interrupt a private event on private property.

The point BH meant, the sheer hypocrisy from the rightwing, its just one of many. Likewise you will always attempt to call an apple and orange as well, although history shows different.

Hows about holding some accountability?

SG



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 10:08 PM
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Ok, so they come packed to these townhall meetings packed with guns, but come on, do you really honestly think their intent is to shoot the President?

My God, these are true Americans, if anything, they would step in and help the Secret Service if anything horrific were to happen. They are not all right wing, they are common folk out to make a point.

It's ironic that one of the points they are making is this:


But all kidding aside, it's not just about healthcare.
Its also because theses people are tired of politics as usual.
They are sick of an out of touch Congress.
They want our elected officials to fear the common folk more than they fear the special interest groups.
They want Congress to know what it's like not knowing whether they'll have a job in a few months.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 10:18 PM
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reply to post by Southern Guardian
 





The point BH meant, the sheer hypocrisy from the rightwing, its just one of many.

I really wish we could have an entire thread, where we didn't use terms like right-wing, left-wing, and sheer hypocrisy. In the realm of politics, the issues are what should be discussed, not the philosophies. People have their respective philosophies, but philosophies don't hurt anyone. It is the action upon the issues that affect each of us.
Can we just discuss the issues without name-calling?

Personally, I had as many problems with the actions of the Bush administration as I do with the Obama administration's actions.

One thing that exacerbates the situation is the fact that the MSM covers things in their own one sided, sensationalistic way.

It's the old saying that is true- When dog bites man, that isn't news, but when man bites dog- details at 6:00.

I do expect more from our elected officials though, and I expect them to do simple things like READ the bills they vote on. I also expect them to act in a mature way, and that includes not resorting to name-calling. Perhaps that is why it happens here-we take our cue from politicians that call citizens that exercise their rights unpatriotic, evil mongers and other unsavory names.

The problem with the political process is that it is set up as a win-lose system. Wouldn't it be nice to change it to a win-win proposition?

Enough philosophical musing of an old man.

Resume the boxing match.
BTW, I fully understand why BH left for awhile. I've thought about it many times myself.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 11:39 PM
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OK, usually I take the time and effort to read all the posts in a thread before I put my 2 pennys worth into the thread.. but after just the opening thread I just thought I would post this reply...

"But show up at an Obama protest packing a loaded automatic rifle"
I missed this one I thought the guy had a "pistol" IE a hand gun in a STATE that allowed hand guns and other firearms to be LEGALLY carried openly in full view of everyone...

as I have stated I have not heard of somone carrying an automatic "RIFLE" at a Presidential apperiance.

Even if this was true, if it is LEGAL so what???? it is called the 2nd ammendment, just as everyone here is spouting thier opinion about it that falls under the 1st ammendment.. big friggin deal.. I have a small arsenal I also have the right to openly carry weapons, I also have a concealed carry weapons permit...BIG DEAL!!!!

I can also write and speak my mind and post my opinions online and in public!!!!!! theese are our rights under the constitution of the United States of America... and if you like it or not too friggin bad...They are our RIGHTS.. if you are not in the USA. and do not agree withe it, fine...

No skin off my shoulders.. because of the simple fact that YOUR vote does not affect my Country.... IE I live here I vote. and no matter your opinion, or your moral high ground. go ahead and try to vote for or against one of my representitives, go ahead and "cast your European ballot" in one of my states and see how much weight it carries..

We may be influenced by outsiders, but ultimately for better or worse, come hell or high water soon the average Joe will make his voice heard in the USA, and most likely he will at the same time tell "all you outsiders just leave us the hell alone"

ANd Kiss my big Eagle ass on the way out!!!!!



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 11:52 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
With all the talk about double standards between this administration and the last, I think it's important to be thorough and look at the whole picture.

There are many stories about Bush protesters being arrested for wearing shirts with anti-Bush and anti-war messages on them. These are just a few of the many stories of innocent people exercising their First Amendment rights:

....

Even McCain protesters were arrested:

....

But show up at an Obama protest packing a loaded automatic rifle and you get respect and even your 15 minutes of fame. No arrests, no hassle, no disrespect or stepping on the Second Amendment by Obama or his Secret Service.

That's the kind of change I like!




This has nothing to do with the aforementioned Presidents, and everything to do with the people behind such acts. Many with the anti-Bush shirts were raving maniacs, typically young college aged adults who simply do not respect authority, nor do they understand the combined terms of "Peaceful" and "Protest". On the other hand, those with the Assault Rifles are generally Middle-Aged Working Adults, and they went about their 2nd Amendment display in a Peaceful and Mature manner.


If you want to be fair in your examples, then look at this gentleman who was arrested at a recent Town Hall Meeting (For holding a sign professing true hatred for Obama):

Man Arrested For "Threatening" POTUS Obama



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