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Where is your God?!

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posted on Aug, 27 2009 @ 11:31 PM
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Originally posted by TangoVooDoo

Originally posted by Republican08
reply to post by TangoVooDoo
 


Thanks for the foe.


I was a bit surprised, but also Welcome to ATS.


Thanks for the welcome


I will be foeing you, it helps me keep track of who i'm against, it's not offensive, or made to piss you off. lol, glad to see you used it appropriately.




posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 04:12 AM
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reply to post by TangoVooDoo
 


Gladly.

The bible is written with many cultural influences. Many times throughout the bible, you can see this. An example would be

1 Timothy 2:11-12 clearly states:
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."

So, where it says in the bible that "the word of the lord came to.." etc. We can see here, that it is still written by and thus limited by man. Therefore, when i say to read the hidden truths, one has to learn to read the Bible in such a way that you appreciate it for its symbolism and not read it literally. Refer to google about 'Kernel of Truth'.

So when it comes to the example of adam and eve and a rib being taken. I really just said this weak argument to spark debate, and it has. I dont ACTUALLY believe god took a real human rib from adam so that she could be by his side. I would be more inclined to believe that it was written in that way to portray how man and woman should live with eachother, how similar we are by nature and so on.

I DO NOT contractict myself at all. I say

I would rather view it as i see it from me, not read what someone else thinks and take their perception as my own


I do not take their perception as my own. I merely explain that the Bible does hold some interesting truths / ideas that these authors have come up with, which we can appreciate and view as a stepping stone almost to further ideas. For example, if you read aristotle, plato and so on, you can read their works, see what challeneges they faced, appreciate their arguments for their logical clarity, disregard some of their arguments because of their own bias.

Logically, i hold them to be philosophers because if i were to analyse the belief that:

An Almighty god divined through the authors his "words" ~(an almighty god uses words...) for his chosen people (wernt we all supposed to be equal?), it leads to a rather arbitary God (running around fixing things).

A perfect creator, creates an imperfect world and then tries to set it right by making people write down his words...in a book...so that people can read and follow from example, whilst still not giving proof of his existence. Rather, he strongly hints at it by saying a few thousand times throughout the Bible that these words are his words. AND IF YOU WERE TO SUGGEST the BIBLE is proof of his existance, then God has effectively limited our free will!

So Overall, just like the aristotle and plato point, i think they were a bunch of very enlightened people who wrote a very colourful, symbollic guide to life which they gleamed from very intense ponderings.

Thanks







[edit on 28-8-2009 by Toughiv]



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 08:35 AM
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Hello and thank you for your clarification on some items.



Originally posted by Toughiv

Therefore, when i say to read the hidden truths, one has to learn to read the Bible in such a way that you appreciate it for its symbolism and not read it literally. Refer to google about 'Kernel of Truth'.




The problem now arises.....how do you know what is to be taken literally and what is to be symbolic?



Originally posted by Toughiv


Logically, i hold them to be philosophers because if i were to analyse the belief that:

An Almighty god divined through the authors his "words" ~(an almighty god uses words...) for his chosen people (wernt we all supposed to be equal?), it leads to a rather arbitary God (running around fixing things).

A perfect creator, creates an imperfect world and then tries to set it right by making people write down his words...in a book...so that people can read and follow from example, whilst still not giving proof of his existence. Rather, he strongly hints at it by saying a few thousand times throughout the Bible that these words are his words. AND IF YOU WERE TO SUGGEST the BIBLE is proof of his existance, then God has effectively limited our free will!

So Overall, just like the aristotle and plato point, i think they were a bunch of very enlightened people who wrote a very colourful, symbollic guide to life which they gleamed from very intense ponderings.

Thanks



First, since God created all things He then has every right to have a "chosen people", correct? Where do the Scriptures state that all men are equal? Hence your belief in this instance is incorrect.

Second, please explain how the world is imperfect? Now if you mean that man is imperfect then I agree but if you mean that the universe is imperfect or "not right" then I strongly disagree.

Lastly, again where is it stated in Scripture that man has "free will"?

Take care.



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by TangoVooDoo

First, since God created all things He then has every right to have a "chosen people", correct? Where do the Scriptures state that all men are equal? Hence your belief in this instance is incorrect.

Second, please explain how the world is imperfect? Now if you mean that man is imperfect then I agree but if you mean that the universe is imperfect or "not right" then I strongly disagree.

Lastly, again where is it stated in Scripture that man has "free will"?

Take care.


1st...If you are arguing FOR the God of the Bible then no. Since that would not be all-loving. (hence my belief in this instance is not incorrect).

2nd. Ok, this world is imperfect because women know of child birth, people know of pain, suffering and death. Refer to Gen 2.

3rd. It is implied that man has free will. We are made in God's image. We were given dominion over the earth. God tells us to eat freely from all tress in the garden but not the tree of good & evil and yet we do it. There is proof that the bible aqsserts we have free will.

When it comes to interpreting the bible symbollically, there is not set answer, thats like asking how do you make painting. I can tell you the equipment needed, but to create a piece of art, thats completely subjective.



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 09:45 AM
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reply to post by Toughiv
 




A perfect creator, creates an imperfect world


A perfect Creator made a perfect world; we caused it to become imperfect.



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 10:03 AM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 




There are just too many contradictions and inconsistencies. God gave us free will, even though he WOULD have known beforehand that this would lead to the death and suffering of many - mostly innocent - people?


None of us are innocent, we're all guilty under God's Law.

Romans 3:23 KJV For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;



If God was truly benevolent, loving, omniscient, omnipotent and omni couldn't he just end all suffering and evil and give everyone eternal happiness, compassion and prosperity?


God is loving, but God is also just. We've all broken God's Law, He can't just let us off the hook. In real life if someone steals a car and goes to court, does the judge just say, "Well, that's alright. Just don't do it again."? No, of course not. That person has to pay for their crime. Sin is a crime and the sentence is an eternity in Hell.

But God provided a way out. He sent His son, Jesus Christ, to Earth to die for our sins so we could have eternal life. All you have to do is have faith in Jesus Christ and repent of your sins.



I am willing to accept that God does indeed exist but many of us have been mislead by religion and our idea of a deity.


You've tried religion, now try God.



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 10:15 AM
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reply to post by Totakeke
 



But if that perfect creator is all knowing he would have known that we would have caused it to be imperfect!!! AND since he created us, he is ultimately responsible.

Do you NOT GET IT?!



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 10:20 AM
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Originally posted by Toughiv
reply to post by Totakeke
 



But if that perfect creator is all knowing he would have known that we would have caused it to be imperfect!!! AND since he created us, he is ultimately responsible.

Do you NOT GET IT?!


God wanted us to have free will or else we'd all be robots. His desire to give us free will means letting us make our own decisions.

It takes an incredible amount of love to create beings and give them the choice to love back.

[edit on 28-8-2009 by Totakeke]



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 10:25 AM
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reply to post by Totakeke
 


That does not change what i said...what is your point...he would have known we would bring suffering and pain upon ourselves, through the misuse of freewill.

Therefore GOD is responsible for the pain, suffering and EVIL in this world.



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 10:26 AM
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Originally posted by Toughiv
reply to post by Totakeke
 


That does not change what i said...what is your point...he would have known we would bring suffering and pain upon ourselves, through the misuse of freewill.

Therefore GOD is responsible for the pain, suffering and EVIL in this world.


Did God make us eat the fruit off of the Tree of Knowledge? Did God not give us a warning?



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 10:36 AM
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reply to post by Totakeke
 


Oh my god, are you being irritating on purpose? Is this level of logic beyond you?

WHETHER OR NOT HE GAVE US A WARNING GOD WOULD HAVE KNOWN WHAT WE WOULD DO.

C-A-N...Y-O-U...N-O-T...G-E-T...T-H-I-S-?



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by Toughiv
 


I get it perfectly. I'm not going to blame God for the decision mankind made.

I'm done speaking to you about this.

[edit on 28-8-2009 by Totakeke]



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 10:44 AM
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reply to post by Totakeke
 


If you perfectly understood what i was saying then you wouldnt say "...decision mankind made." if god is omniscient and knows what choice we are going to make, choice is merely an illusion.

Youre not done here, you were never started.



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 01:44 PM
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People......let's turn it all down a notch and step away from the keyboards.

I am at odds with Believers who make the claim that they freely chose God and His plan of salvation. I find no evidence of this within Scripture. What we do see though is that man has been "predestined" in one of 2 ways in regards to salvation. Those whom are called to be saved and those whom are appointed to damnation.

So the term "free will" is foreign when used to describe man and salvation. No one....ever, ever chooses God but rather God chooses us, before the foundations of the earth.

God is Sovereign over His creation so He can damn us all to an eternal hell and there can be no fault brought upon God for all things God declares are "good".

The debate among theological circles is just how far does God and His Sovereignty reach? Is it limited in the sense that He only governs man and salvation leaving other choices freely to us, as in what car shall I buy or what job shall I take?

Or does God have total Sovereignty over all things including what we do? To the point that He has even predestined the batting of our eyes to the very thought that He has total Sovereignty?

So did God only "know" of our choices (Adam and Eve being tempted and the outcome) or has God created Adam and Eve not only knowing their choices but causing them to take of the fruit? Satan then also was predestined to fall and also tempt.

Judas then had no choice but he had to betray Christ for it was predestined for him to do so before the foundations of the earth were laid.

Interesting topic but it is also off the original post.



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 02:37 PM
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reply to post by Totakeke
 





. We've all broken God's Law, He can't just let us off the hook. In real life if someone steals a car and goes to court, does the judge just say, "Well, that's alright. Just don't do it again."? No, of course not.


Well you must live in a shoe because not only do judges have the ability to do this they often do so, everything depends on circumstances.

The jury decides whether guilty or not, the judge decides whether to act or not upon that decision.

The judge has the ability to extend compassion should he choose, something your god doesn't quite seem to understand the meaning of.

Our courts are compassionate enough not to have a man stoned to death for being gay. Our societies on the whole are compassionate enough to understand that homosexuality is not a crime.

It would appear that your god cannot relate to this compassion and would have a homosexual killed in the most awful manner.

Please do not insult my intelligent by claiming something like "we/he doesn't do that anymore" , whether in the guise of yahweh or jesus your god (and I imagine you by proxy) would show no compassion and have him face a death sentence.

Needless to say, millions of humans (myself include) would not have this done to another human being, it is therefor plain to see. We at least were "not" created in the image of your god as we find much of its' actions and attitudes, totally and utterly repugnant.



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by moocowman
 


actually, i believe jesus is referring to homosexuality and sex in general, as being examples of following after the ways of the flesh and that the admonition was for christians, not non-christians. it's a reference to the last days and is showing that in the last days, christians will be having trouble in their struggle of mind over matter...spirit over flesh. paul later explains that it's better to be celebate, but if you can't handle being celebate, then get married because it is better to be married than to fornicate.

i don't think it's a reference to non christian gays at all. i think it's talking about the last days of the christian church. there's an upsurge in christian gays. the biblical text claim that's not the path you should follow but it also says, sex in general, even heterosex, is preferably left alone if you can handle living celebate because our walk is a walk of spirit over flesh, which is not exactly the easiest path in life to choose, i might add.



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by Toughiv

Originally posted by TangoVooDoo

First, since God created all things He then has every right to have a "chosen people", correct? Where do the Scriptures state that all men are equal? Hence your belief in this instance is incorrect.

Second, please explain how the world is imperfect? Now if you mean that man is imperfect then I agree but if you mean that the universe is imperfect or "not right" then I strongly disagree.

Lastly, again where is it stated in Scripture that man has "free will"?

Take care.


1st...If you are arguing FOR the God of the Bible then no. Since that would not be all-loving. (hence my belief in this instance is not incorrect).

2nd. Ok, this world is imperfect because women know of child birth, people know of pain, suffering and death. Refer to Gen 2.

3rd. It is implied that man has free will. We are made in God's image. We were given dominion over the earth. God tells us to eat freely from all tress in the garden but not the tree of good & evil and yet we do it. There is proof that the bible aqsserts we have free will.

When it comes to interpreting the bible symbollically, there is not set answer, thats like asking how do you make painting. I can tell you the equipment needed, but to create a piece of art, thats completely subjective.



Thank you for the reply.

God is never said to be a "all loving". God is Love BUT that Love is a Holy Love for God is first and foremost a Holy God. So again God chooses whom He loves. Based on what criteria He chooses we have no idea but that He decrees it and what He decrees is always "good" When He spoke to Abraham and told him to sacrifice His son it was "good". Likewise when God told Abraham to not harm the child that also was "good" for again, God decreed it as such.

We know what pain is because we know what joy is. The same nerve endings that tell us that a back rub feels great are the same ones that tell us a sunburn stings.

You know what good is because you also know evil. I know what love is because I also know forgiveness.

A overview of Scripture may lead to the thought that we indeed do have free will but as one reads it closer and in more detail it is revealed that our free will may not be so free after all.

Take care.



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 06:25 PM
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Another thing I dont understand, regarding the ten commandments - 'You shall have no other gods before me' (or something to that effect). Doesnt that one seem a little dodgy? Does that mean there are other Gods?

Also, something which always bugs me about religious people.. If you believe God is so brilliant and we're so lucky etc, then why dont you follow the religion properly? Seems like the majority of people just pick and choose bits to follow.. and personally if I believed in God, didnt really fancy going to hell and wanted to prove myself as being worthy to go to heaven, then I'd try my absolute best to follow the religion down to a tee.
I mean those hardcore christians are unbelievably annoying... but at least they 'practice what they preach'.



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 07:29 PM
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reply to post by undo
 


You have such a nice way of teaching other xtians a thing or two about their own religion, ever thought of becoming a pastor ?

You leave plenty of room for discussion, but not for argument in your use of "I think" and "intended for Christians" which is very refreshing.


If your post were an example of the attitude of the majority of xtians I think people like me would be far less likely to be so aggressive about Christianity.



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 07:41 PM
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reply to post by Bluebelle
 





Another thing I dont understand, regarding the ten commandments - 'You shall have no other gods before me' (or something to that effect). Doesnt that one seem a little dodgy? Does that mean there are other Gods?


Indeed it does and Yahwhe/jesus goes out of its' way to make sure everyone knew how jealous he was/is of them.


I have been attacked by xtians claiming that there are no other gods and that yahweh was implying the people should not invent other gods.

This proposal seems somewhat insane as there is no evidence of the existance of Yahweh to begin with.

We effectively have one imaginary deity being jealous of other imaginary deities which is quite ridiculous .

It becomes even more ridiculous when you take a little time to consider why a human would suddenly start worshiping a god that wasn't yahweh in the first place if they didn't actually exist and Yahweh did.




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