Where is your God?!

reply to post by Totakeke


Please stop pushing christ onto people.
2nd line

Originally posted by Toughiv
reply to post by Totakeke

 

Please stop pushing christ onto people.
2nd line

I honestly kind of admire him for 'pushing' his beliefs so to speak.

What he has read, and what his meaning of life is to do, is to spread the word of god.

I mean if I honestly believed in a heaven and hell, I would push until I eventually died, persuading people to turn to yahweh, or allah, to avoid eternal damnation.

Seems only right.

If I as an atheist want to push my beliefs, I must accept those who are reading texts, telling them to push their beliefs.

I have no texts, so I have only me, and that is actually pretty weird, to be a good contrary opinion that has meaning in opposition to them.

reply to post by Toughiv


I'm not "pushing" anything. I'm simply telling someone that they do in fact have free will, and their open rejection of Christ is proof of that.

reply to post by Republican08


The problem is they are not pushign the word of god...they are pushing the Bible.

reply to post by Totakeke


The rejection of christ is going to be more conditioned / determined than by free will.

Originally posted by Toughiv
reply to post by Republican08

 

The problem is they are not pushign the word of god...they are pushing the Bible.

The Bible IS the Word of God.

reply to post by Totakeke


SO SAYS THE PERSON WHO WROTE IT!

and THE CHURCH WHO TOOK IT APART AND PUT IT BACK TOGETHER.

Word of God, my @@@@

[edit on 26-8-2009 by Toughiv]

reply to post by Toughiv

I highly disagree, that is because my definition of WHAT IT IS to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God differs from your own. Words represent concepts. Concepts are SUBJECTIVE

Then if everything just boils down to what your "definition is" and our concepts are "subjective" then why do you bother debating ?

Nevertheless, in your paradigm is god (I'm assuming yahweh) the creator of all that there is was or ever will be ?

If the answer is no who or what is the creator of what is,was,or will not be created by god ?

If your answer is yes and god created "everything" what is the source of the impetus required, for a human to act in a manner contrary to that what how he was created to act ?

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by Toughiv

 

Then if everything just boils down to what your "definition is" and our concepts are "subjective" then why do you bother debating ?

Nevertheless, in your paradigm is god (I'm assuming yahweh) the creator of all that there is was or ever will be ?

If the answer is no who or what is the creator of what is,was,or will not be created by god ?

1st...i debate because concepts are not arguments, arguments are a string of concepts (of which we can all RELATE to). That are *supposed* to be structure in a logical manner leading from premise to conclusion.

I like to argue to show other people and for other people to show me where my perspective on a matter is illogical or bias.

2nd. My concept of God is an ultimate conciousness higher than this reality. Creator of this reality (now this is where I myself am not sure). Either we are individual creations of this higher conciousness or merely different manifestations of this higher conciousness that come into being because of desire.

3rd.

god created "everything" what is the source of the impetus required, for a human to act in a manner contrary to that what how he was created to act ?

What are you assuming here when you say "...in a manner contrary to that what how he was created to act?"

Please explain to me what you think on "how we were created to act". Thanks

Originally posted by Totakeke

Originally posted by Toughiv
reply to post by Republican08

 

The problem is they are not pushign the word of god...they are pushing the Bible.

The Bible IS the Word of God.

Are you 100% sure of this ?

If so are you willing to enter into a lengthy debate on the subject without running away ?

If yes please begin with which god you claim the bibles (plural) are the word of ?

And do you also claim that your god is inerrant and the creator of "everything" ?

If there is anything else you would like to add as to the nature of your god please feel free to do so before we begin, should you decide to defend your claim.

I will assume that the nature of your god is how it is described in the bibles.

You up for it ?

reply to post by moocowman


No, I'm not willing to enter into a lengthy debate because it would be pointless. I posted that response to clear up a misconception (that the Bible is the Word of God) and not to start something.

reply to post by Toughiv

Either we are individual creations of this higher conciousness or merely different manifestations of this higher conciousness that come into being because of desire. 3rd. god created "everything" what is the source of the impetus required, for a human to act in a manner contrary to that what how he was created to act ? What are you assuming here when you say "...in a manner contrary to that what how he was created to act?" Please explain to me what you think on "how we were created to act". Thanks

I don't have an opinion on how we were created to act as yet I find no evidence for this.

When you allude to different manifestations of a higher consciousness. I would then conclude that an individual self aware manifestation of this higher consciousness, is but perceiving the "illusion" of free will.

If man is an individuation of a creator then he logically "is" the creator experiencing itself and is therefore free will itself.

This scenario however is far removed from the biblical gods yahweh, jesus, el shaddai etc, which I now assume you don't endorse?

reply to post by moocowman


I dont typically endorse the eye for an eye...no wait turn the other cheek! god promoted through christianity.

Overall, i disagree with organised religion. Its mass brainwashing, control mechanism etc.

The nature of knowledge itself , as discussed by many threads, is that you never really KNOW anything. So then when it comes to an area as highly mysterious as God, why would people FOLLOW somebody else's ideas? Listen to them by all means, accept the merit they hold, question the premises they hold, ensure they are logically sound.

God like any other concept is subjective. If me and you were to sit at opposite ends of a small room and i held up a mobile phone, do you see what i see? We both see a mobile phone, but we both see different sides of that phone.

I typically use aristotles principle of the mean for most scenario's as a guide.

Cheers,

Brad

reply to post by moocowman


also on a quick note. I dont think we are completely free or completely determined.

As with my earlier post, im a soft determinist.

Originally posted by Totakeke
reply to post by moocowman

 

No, I'm not willing to enter into a lengthy debate because it would be pointless. I posted that response to clear up a misconception (that the Bible is the Word of God) and not to start something.

Why are you willing to publicly proclaim that the bible are the word of a god, yet back down when challenged to defend your claim ?

It this sort of delusional behavior that gets my goat, I'm a critical skeptical adult that will challenge you, but little children are being exposed to the potential of xctian abuse every minute because they can't challenge your claims.

The only reason it would be pointless is that you cannot prove the veracity of your claims. This would be all well and and I certainly would never try to deny anyone the right to believe what they wish.

"But" being an xtian society runs the risk of people like you getting jobs in schools etc and feeding little children horror stories of hell and demons and men who live inside fish etc.

I bet my last penny that you wouldn't for an instant refrain from telling a six year old, that Noah managed to cram 2 (or was it 7) of every species of animal on a wooden boat and a god told him to do it. If the child happened to ask how do you know the story is true, you wouldn't bat an eyelid at replying that the bibles say so.

Unless of course you are not an average xtian and keep your delusion to yourself in your home and church.

reply to post by moocowman


hear, hear.
2nd line

reply to post by Toughiv


I don't have the time for a full response right now, but I see you are in a different ball park to an xtian.

There seems to be far less debate between atheist/agnostics and people (heretical/ lol) such as yourself who are obviously smart enough not to get trapped in the delusion of xtianity.

I would however consider one benefit of xtianity in that it can allow the more open minded to springboard to a higher level of inquiry.

But now I think about the atrociousness committed by xtians, that benefit is beginning to dwindle, just not worth it lol

reply to post by moocowman


We always have to remember not to tarnish those other with the same brush. Its almost like me saying most muslims are suicide bombers. That is not the case, in fact ive found the opposite. Most muslim people ive met have been very kind, well to do people, with good heads on their shoulds.

One explained the difference between enjoyment and happiness to me, it was very enlightening.

One thing i always find myself asking is...to i read into things and see duality, because of my xtian conditioning as a child or had it always been there?

thanks

reply to post by Toughiv

One thing i always find myself asking is...to i read into things and see duality, because of my xtian conditioning as a child or had it always been there?

I would opt for xtian conditioning, here's the didffernece yet similarity between us.

I was raised without conditioning, per se', my parents did not at all have any discussion on religion, I never had any fears introduced into my psyche by them and I've no idea if they had any beliefs at all.

My dad was dying a horrible lengthy death from cancer and religion was mentioned (don't recall by whom) his response was that he didn't believe in all that.
That was the only indication I ever had of my dads beliefs, my mum has just never discussed it although they got married in a church and she would attend the xmas carol/mass thing at a local church.

So, it would be fair to say that any influence xtianity had on me came from outside the family. When I attended little schools it was all Noahs ark and baby jesus with a sprinkling of demonic possession.

It would appear that my sort of agnostic/atheist upbringing did not protect me from the influence of xtianity. I acquired some deep rooted semi beliefs in my consciousness, from teachers and the media etc promoting their beliefs in order to influence my thinking .

Question was simply not allowed at school and acceptance was paramount, equally so, to question or criticize xtians beliefs or the validity of their god would result in being a social outcast.

I have lived a very happy life without a god and my morals and ethics have been reasonably high in relation to doing unto others etc no ones perfect though and I've certainly screwed up sometimes.

However, I noticed during my divorce a deeply rooted psychological/emotional conflict in relation to marriage and relationships etc. If anything this one issue has engendered an anger within me toward those that subliminally saturated my early life with xtian propaganda and dogma.

I'll see if you can guess what this conflict of reason could be lol as I'm a bit short of time right now to elaborate further, and wouldn't want to bore you or anyone else.

reply to post by Republican08

If I as an atheist want to push my beliefs, I must accept those who are reading texts, telling them to push their beliefs.

Surely as an atheist you wouldn't entertain the though of pushing beliefs that you do not have ?

May I assume you are making a hypothetical point here I think the oxymoron would go completely over totohekkinins (forgot how to spell it, you know scrappy do dude) head though.