It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Where is your God?!

page: 22
48
<< 19  20  21    23  24  25 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 06:35 PM
link   
reply to post by Agree2Disagree
 


Forgive me for being so 'to the point, but how about addressing some of the questions that I posed above. What kind of a personal loving God would create the viruses that destroy humans? How about the wonderful Guinea worm which solely hosts on humans with dreadful results (look it up on google as one of many such examples)? People continue to believe in this loving creator God and gloss right over such horrible artifacts of 'creation.'

My point is that we have a better chance to move on (via humanism) and shape our world into something better without these silly, persistent religous beliefs - that just cause more warfare, environmental destruction, and suppression of true, useful knowledge.


[edit on 20-8-2009 by whatsup]




posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 06:36 PM
link   
reply to post by makinho21
 


well i think it was jesus who said that moses made up a few things, that weren't necessarily divinely inspired because he saw the need for modifications to it, in their society. the example he gave were the laws regarding divorce. he said that moses watered them down because he could see the impossibility of employing them in reality. the people then took the laws of moses, assumed they were all directly from the mouth of God, and used them like blunt instruments to keep each other in line. it got progressively more complicated, as is the tendency of an advancing society. not to say that the ten commandments were not divinely inspired, but they weren't the only laws.

in the grand tradition of the guardian, it got harder and harder (as it is today) to not be perceived as bad in some fashion so that the available resources would always circulate amongst only those who were considered worthy. that's part of the system, and it isn't their or our fault. all of this is stacked decks. stacked to the ceiling. stacked so high and so deep, very few ever manage to rise above it or get out alive.

my theory is that part of the reason for that is that we are so sure we can fix each other, but the fixing process tends to be the desire to make clones of ourselves. that ain't gonna happen of course, and as a result, there's strife, misery and unhappiness.

anyway, i'd say you're preaching to the choir in at least part of your post. the difference is, i'm not convinced i should be like you or that you should be like me.
and that, my friend, should be a relief for ya, cause i'm an old grumpy woman.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 06:44 PM
link   

Originally posted by whatsup
In answer to the excellent questions posed by the OP, THERE IS NO PERSONAL GOD folks! The best answer that people can give is that there is great evil that came upon the original pristine world which God made (the Fall or some other silly myth). Well, who created the viruses that destroy us? Who created the dreadful Guinea worm whose sole purpose is to invade and parasitize it's unique host of homo sapien? Answer this please you religious people!! The world has existed a predatory, barbaric, disease ridden, survival of the fittest place for millions of years before man even arrived. I cannot understand the stupidity of the religious that gloss over this simple fact.

The fact is that we are the one's shaping our destiny on this planet, and the passive projection of some saviour God is why we remain in our plight (a good example of this is the religious attack on humanism etc etc.). We have enough problems in trying to shape something useful and compassionate of this dualistic world without creating more useless myths that get us no where.

Its back to dark ages over and over (especially in the US lately).

That is why the Bible calls it the wilderness. I think evolution and science are the extensions of religion. After God started the whole process, evolution was the main driving force behind all life. Science tries to discover the process that God put forth, and religion tries to define the scientific processes in simplistic form. Catholicism has already acknowledged and praised Charles Darwin, but other extensions of Christianity have not. Religious sects are slowly coming around to the acceptance of science.

"(the Fall or some other silly myth)"
Curiosity. Do you know the whole story?



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 06:46 PM
link   
reply to post by Pathos
 





After God was exposed to Noah's humility, he swore to never again interfere with mankind directly.


This implies that yahwehjesus god was unaware of the humility of that which he/it/she created and would preclude omniscience.




God recognized the usefulness of freewill,


That has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard a theist say ever in the world.

Tell me (no please don't I'll probably bite my monitor lol), how is it possible for an omniscient being not to recognize something ?






and the benefits of showing his children mercy.



So why is it do you think that the jesusyahwhe god chose not observe the benefits of mercy when he had the first born of Egypt killed etc? .

There again if yawhejesus god observed the benefit of mercy then this would explain Hitler sitting at the right hand of god.

Yes, he could use the elements to teach mankind a lesson, but it would go against his promise to Noah.


es, he could use the elements to teach mankind a lesson, but it would go against his promise to Noah.


So soddom and Gomorrah and every other catastrophic event caused by what we would term "mother Nature" had nothing to do with jesusyawhwe god ?

Satan lived inside the Ark of the Covenant, or would this be classed as a divine mechanical device and not subject to the same promise ?



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 06:46 PM
link   
Reply to post by whatsup
 


My personal God did not. He created us, we manifested sin. We have in fact as you said done this to ourselves. That does not mean my personal God cannot exist.

I understand what you are saying. Just do not be so bold as to say "there is no personal God" because that would require you to have identical knowledge and experiences to those of mine.

I have no quarrels with your statement other than that which you felt the need to capitalise for some odd reason...


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 06:48 PM
link   
Reply to post by moocowman
 


Why do we try so hard to understand that which isn't meant for us to understand.

One either has faith or one doesn't. That's the end of the story.


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 06:50 PM
link   
reply to post by Agree2Disagree
 





My personal God did not. He created us, we manifested sin.

So viruses are not created by your yahwehjesus god ?

Hm, did they suddenly just appear in a big bang from nothing ?

Please explain your theory as to the creator of the animals that we call viruses please.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 06:51 PM
link   
reply to post by Pathos
 




"(the Fall or some other silly myth)" Curiosity. Do you know the whole story?


No, but I refuse to make up one like the religious do! I had rather admit ignorance than create completely unsubstantiated myth (like deist Gods, Fall from grace, original sin, yada yada).

[edit on 20-8-2009 by whatsup]



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 06:56 PM
link   
reply to post by moocowman
 


those are legitimate questions. i've considered them as well. my current theory developed from a question someone asked me regarding the nature of God. It went something like this:

Would God create a rock so big, even He couldn't lift it?

Answer: human free will. by his own decree, human free will is off limits territory. those who are capable of interfering with it, and do so, tend to get a vacation in a far away place. free will acts like a virtual machine on God's desktop. he could interfer with it if asked or moved to do so, but seems he has laws in place that he generally abides by as regards the free will equation. this is so those who disagree and feel it is their right and responsibility to interfer with the free will of others, can't point an accusatory finger back should the question be raised in mixed company.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 06:57 PM
link   

Originally posted by moocowman

God recognized the usefulness of freewill...


That has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard a theist say ever in the world.

Tell me (no please don't I'll probably bite my monitor lol), how is it possible for an omniscient being not to recognize something?

The question should be:

"If God knew man would sin before hand, why would he put them into a garden with the forbidden fruit of knowledge?"
Why did he put his children directly into harms way? Since God is an all seeing being, why did he expose mankind to temptation?

Even though I am a Christian, I personally want to know this answer.

[edit on 20-8-2009 by Pathos]



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 07:03 PM
link   
reply to post by Agree2Disagree
 





Why do we try so hard to understand that which isn't meant for us to understand.


And who made you arbitrator on that which is to be understood and by whom ?






One either has faith or one doesn't. That's the end of the story.


And as we know, faith is by definition believing in something without the requirement of evidence.

So why do you bother entering into debate trying to defend your position with evidence ?

Why bother debating at all ? It doesn't matter to you whether there is any evidence of your claims because you don't need any, you'll just go on believing what someone else that you just happen to agree with has told you.


Your position is now utterly ridiculous, why bother trying to explain yourself when you require no explanation?

All you had to do in your first post is to say you believe what the bible (or whatever you've been told) is true without the need of evidence and leave it that.

" I picked up this book, I read it and believed every word of it and I don't need any evidence of the veracity of its' claims"

There you go, how difficult was that to type out ?



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 07:11 PM
link   
reply to post by Pathos
 


it's a mistranslation. or rather, misunderstood and therefore mistranslated, text.

what's the knowledge of good and evil? the law. why's law necessary? for society. why's society necessary? for slavery, production, commerce. science. art. etc.

where did we sin? consciously, we became aware of the difference between ourselves and the more advanced members of pre-existing civilization. they washed. they worked. they wore protective clothing. they were "civilized". they played musical instruments, wore make up and jewelry and had religion. they had science and language and art. we were naked folks running around in the field with the animals, drinking out of the rivers and generally being "uncivilized."

that's what it boils down to, and gets increasingly more complex as the society advances. what kind of music. how much make up. what kind of clothes. charity, kindness, love, etc etc etc. the uncivilized animal, became a "civilized" human being.

what that does to the psyche of the human mind, at its most basic developmental stage is create a huge negative blob. somehow, we had to deal with the blob.
and so we did. ...i think...



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 07:14 PM
link   
reply to post by Pathos
 





The question should be: "If God knew man would sin before hand, why would he put them into a garden with the forbidden fruit of knowledge?" I would personally like to know this answer.


Or perhaps the observation should be made -

Only a psychopathic nutcase would give a donkey a bowl of strawberries then kick him in the bollocks every time it ate one. Meanwhile the donkeys fathers uncles' sisters wifes' great great grandfathers nephew, chewed on a letter written in giraffe to the first donkey telling it not to eat the strawberries.

xtianity is most definitely a make it up as you go along psychotic cult, that starts its prayer to a mountain god and finishes thanking an Egyptian god.

That's all folks !



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 07:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by doodiepants
reply to post by Republican08
 


1.) I don't want a God coming down and stopping people from doing things. I want freedom.

2.) Also, why is rape or torture bad? Said person will die at the end of their life span and not be comprehend a thing. We're all just pieces of meat tricked into self awareness buy various neurotransmitters anyway. Judging good or bad is just an illusion created human kind.

Why don't you argue from a true atheist perspective?

[edit on 19-8-2009 by doodiepants]


People living in their freedom at the expense of everyone else is called anarchy. You wouldn't want a god to do it, how do you feel about other people doing it? Maybe it's best you just stay away from everyone else in the world and then you could have your freedom.

You're assuming that atheists don't have a moral code?

I KNOW what is wrong and right based on how other people feel when I treat them a certain way. If I cause someone or something PAIN, that is wrong. I know it and it isn't a belief in a god that tells me that. It's just common sense. I know when someone causes me pain, it's wrong.

If we were just pieces of meat, we wouldn't be self-aware.

Don't oversimplify it to make your point, because it makes you look silly. It's what 4 year-olds do to try to win an argument and it never works.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 07:19 PM
link   

Originally posted by Pathos

Originally posted by moocowman

God recognized the usefulness of freewill...


That has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard a theist say ever in the world.

Tell me (no please don't I'll probably bite my monitor lol), how is it possible for an omniscient being not to recognize something?

The question should be:

"If God knew man would sin before hand, why would he put them into a garden with the forbidden fruit of knowledge?"
Why did he put his children directly into harms way? Since God is an all seeing being, why did he expose mankind to temptation?

Even though I am a Christian, I personally want to know this answer.

[edit on 20-8-2009 by Pathos]


It's an age-old question...

Here's my favorite quote about god, from the philosopher, Epicurus:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? "



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 07:23 PM
link   
reply to post by moocowman
 


not a mountain god in the sense of rock mountain. a mountain god in the sense of holy mountain (pyramid, ziggurat, etc). it's always been about the same group and of course, they were worshipped in more than one place. so it's not a start here and end there, but more of a start here and follow to here. same bat time, same bat channel.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 07:40 PM
link   
reply to post by undo
 





not a mountain god in the sense of rock mountain. a mountain god in the sense of holy mountain (pyramid, ziggurat, etc).


I don't necessarily (thank god for spell check I hate that word lol) disagree I'm more inclined to think both.





it's always been about the same group and of course, they were worshipped in more than one place


I'm currently checking out the work of Art and Lois Banta, they make a very strong case for the exodus referring to the exiles of Aketaten and their journey from their homeland to Cannan. Any views on this ? I don't see this proposition conflicting too much to what you observe .



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 07:50 PM
link   
reply to post by moocowman
 


do you mean akhenaten?
enlil was the biblical jehovah. yahweh is the same as jehovah. now someone could fairly easily convince me that yahweh/jehovah was ea (enki) because my current theory is that they were mixed in together in the torah, but not so much in the books after the torah, where it seems to settle down to just enlil.

anyway, enlil is an air/sky/heaven god, not a sun god. enki/ea is a water/earth/fertility god, so he's not a sun god either. the question would then be, how does a sun disc god end up being enlil or enki? enlil was never ever worshipped as a sun god.

i think what you have there are people who think the concept of "son of god" is the same as "sun god", which is like saying, your "son" must be the "sun"



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 07:50 PM
link   

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
Reply to post by whatsup
 


Speak for yourself. Who are you to say my persnal God does not exist? That's a perversion of the word PERSONAL.


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 


As soon as you make claims about your "personal" god that supposedly impact others then we can say it doesn't exist.
Other than that, your free to live in your little bubble...



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 07:53 PM
link   

Originally posted by readerone
(post script )

get over it ...

get over it...

christ said him self , I am the I am .... ( some flameing bush ... not a god . )

if he was a man , why am I diffrent ... if he was god... then whats the point ? was some kind of s/m freak ?

...and who kill'd him ?...
answer = religon !

as I see it , christ was no fan of any organized religon , frankly speaking ... if he were alive to day...

he would be hanging out with IRS auditors , gang banger , whores , and street people .
... and he would speak unkind words about church goers , organized religon , and the rich people who support them ....

look at the pattern , stop looking at the end of your nose , and reach out with your mind .


To them I would say...

"If I were your appendages
I'd hold open your eyes
So you would see
That all of us are heaven sent
There was never meant to be only one
To be only one" Incubus...Megolomaniac

but also,

"Gotta keep my pimphand strong"...Snoop

as well as,

"No one F*cKs with the jesus"....Big Lebowski

and lastly,

Jesus was never a man, but all mankind.

God wouldn't be very just to send one for all would it, unless all were one, the scales would tip.

Jesus the character says, "why do you call me good, none is good but the father in heaven" of which he also says, "the kingdom of heaven is in you"

Oh and whores...I love em, toast.

Peace



new topics

top topics



 
48
<< 19  20  21    23  24  25 >>

log in

join