Masons and conspiracy theories

You guys also say numbers and geometric figures and symbolism are no more important to Freemasons than any one else.

Point rested.

Originally posted by akilles
You guys also say numbers and geometric figures and symbolism are no more important to Freemasons than any one else.

Who said that? Certainly not I; I only dismissed the paranoid conspiratorial interpretations of such things, not those things themselves.

Well now, if you would just give us the correct interpretation (for each degree would be fine) of all Masonic symbols, or symbols referenced or used by teachings that are covered in Masonry.

You can start with sacred geometry, then we can move onto symbolism in numbers, and then you can deal with how this is presented to people in plain sight, and yet goes un-noticed by people. And when noticed (such as the eye in the Taco Baal logo) serve only to mystify and confuse people.

No wonder people resort to paranoia and conspiracy, there is so much to fill in, and so few reliable references!

Originally posted by akilles
Well now, if you would just give us the correct interpretation (for each degree would be fine) of all Masonic symbols, or symbols referenced or used by teachings that are covered in Masonry.

If you want to read about Masonic symbolism, then buy "Symbolism of Freemasonry" by Albert Mackey. It's available from Kessinger.

You can start with sacred geometry, then we can move onto symbolism in numbers, and then you can deal with how this is presented to people in plain sight, and yet goes un-noticed by people. And when noticed (such as the eye in the Taco Baal logo) serve only to mystify and confuse people.

This may come as a complete surprise to you, but Sacred Geometry doesn't have anything to do with burritos. Sacred Geometry began with the early Greeks, possibly the Mysteries, but certainly was popularized by the philosopher Pythagoras. If you want me to "start with Sacred Geometry", here's a quick overview:

The Pythagoreans and Platonists were concerned with discovering those things that are most real; and by default, that which is most real is most stable, most stable is least likely to decay, and least likely to decay is most divine.

The best example given of Sacred Geometry was by Pythagoras, later elaborated on by Plato. Assume that I pick up a piece of chalk and draw a square on a blackboard. The square in question will not be a true square because I cannot, as an imperfect being, draw four lines that exactly equidistant, parrallel, and perpendicular. But if you see the image I draw, then you begin to think about a square; not necessarily my square on the blackboard, but the true square which exists only in the world of idea.

In like manner, I can take my imperfect square and purposely elongate one side, making it appear extremely rude. But I can still write a number beneath its base, and another by a side, and determine the area of a square whose dimensions are written on a piece of paper, e.g., a math test. Regardless of how imperfect square is, I will get the right answer on the test question because we are dealing with something that exists independently of the world of phenomenon. This what Plato called the Form.

This doctrine states that Mathematics in general, and especially in Geometry which can be easily demonstrated by visual aid, contains a universal truth, and is immortal. The square always has four sides; long after my imperfect square has been erased from the board, the idea of the square continues to exist; in actuality, it is immortal. Because it is immortal, it is more real than the square I have drawn, and thus its existence has more stability. In effect, its stability is infinitely perfect.

Likewise, 4 plus 1 always equals 5, regardless of whether we're talking about apples or dollars or even nothing at all.

Therefore, mathematics, and geometry in particular, is often viewed as sacred because it touches upon the infinite. This has came even much further than perhaps even Pythagoras himself had imagined; Newton and Einstein have demonstrated that all of phenomenal reality can be expressed through mathematical equation. In essence, number is the building block of everything that exists.

It is certainly no wonder that something so important has been considered sacred by the philosophers, and no wonder that such learning continues to propagated today among the deeper thinkers.

Actually, I get more ridicule than praise for mentioning the Golden Phi, but thats just the world I live in.

Seems true deep thinkers are ridiculed, much like when Greenmanmind discusses ley lines.

So let me ask you a deep question, Masonic Light, what does a tetrahedron look like in 4 dimensions, and how would one depict it in merely 2? Thereby going from material to spiritual?

Originally posted by akilles
... and then you can deal with how this is presented to people in plain sight, and yet goes un-noticed by people. And when noticed (such as the eye in the Taco Baal logo) serve only to mystify and confuse people.

That just doesn't happen. YOU think it does because you think everything is out to get you. But the fact of the matter is that masonry shares it's shapes and figures with tons of city layouts, corporate logos, etc. etc. because they are very basic shapes that can be found EVERYWHERE. Does this mean that masons are everywhere controlling everything, or does it mean that this is a very common and predominant shape in our world?

No wonder people resort to paranoia and conspiracy, there is so much to fill in, and so few reliable references!

Unreliable references? You believe every stupid conspiracy theory you come across, and you're talking about unreliable references?

And if you see an eye in the Taco Bell logo (grasping at straws, dude), and not the very obvious bell, then I'm afraid that you're more delusional than I thought.


[edit on 6-3-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by akilles
So let me ask you a deep question, Masonic Light, what does a tetrahedron look like in 4 dimensions, and how would one depict it in merely 2? Thereby going from material to spiritual?

Depicted 2d tetrahedron







Depicted 4d tetrahedron

Originally posted by akilles
You can start with sacred geometry, then we can move onto symbolism in numbers, and then you can deal with how this is presented to people in plain sight, and yet goes un-noticed by people. And when noticed (such as the eye in the Taco Baal logo) serve only to mystify and confuse people.

Wow man I have never seen the all seeing eye in all my years hiding within a Taco Baal symbol. I looked for it today and saw it. You are way above top secret in my book. I wonder how many more there are?

Well, it is AN EYE. I didn't say it was the all-seeing eye, but symbolism is symbolism.

Most people don't look twice at a logo, well maybe now people will go to the music store, and count the 4d tetrahedron's on little girl Pop Star's music albums! Or not.

Originally posted by TgSoe
Wow man I have never seen the all seeing eye in all my years hiding within a Taco Baal symbol. I looked for it today and saw it. You are way above top secret in my book. I wonder how many more there are?

Youre kidding, right?

Originally posted by akilles
Well, it is AN EYE. I didn't say it was the all-seeing eye, but symbolism is symbolism.

Most people don't look twice at a logo, well maybe now people will go to the music store, and count the 4d tetrahedron's on little girl Pop Star's music albums! Or not.

Maybe. Then again, maybe...just MAYBE most of us have a lot better things to do that waste our time at the music store looking for evil symbolism. Christ on a crutch! What in the WORLD does this silliness have to do with ANYTHING other than some music groups use certain geometric symbols.

Oh, wait. I forgot. It has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING....just the silly ramblings of a troll (and not a very good one, I might add)

UPDATE on Masonic Shooting:

I just got off the phone with Lt. Fitzpatick from Homicide in Pathogue, who was at the scene investigating the crime. I told him the situation, and he said that whether it was an initiation into the Fellow craft within Masonary or not did not factor into the case. He was not aware of the problems with the articles floating around about this. I brought it to his attention, however. At this point, I don't think anybody can say beyond a reasonable doubt that it was a mere accident. I also don't think anybody can say it was NOT an accident beyond a reasonable doubt. Justice in America is a side show (OJ is innocent!), not that I am saying he premeditated this. The problem is that comment in the AP article supposedly by Mayo. Strangely, I tried to get Mayo's contact from the main Masonic switchboard in New York, but he is not in the database. That seems odd since he was cited in the AP article as being the Senior Deacon.

I don't want to smear Masonary, this case just intrigues me flat out. It could be the Knights of Columbus, who used to sponsor my Hockey team, of which my Grandfather was a member: doesn't matter what group. The case itself has brought up some big issues for me, viz, inconsisitencies in the media, namely, bias.

What makes me think that poor hack is innocent and that it was an accident:

(1) Hard to pin a motive on the Mason, since it is a tad foolish and sure to smear the Mason's name, something doubtless the whole does not want in anyway
(2) He had a permit for his "real" gun since the 50's
(3) He is old (76) and could therefore more easily make such a mistake
(4) From what I have read, he grieved the loss and admitted to the crime immediately

What makes me think it was pre-meditated:

(1) The cops said the perp could not explain why he had a loaded gun in the basement that fatal night. That means the perp did NOT say he carried a gun because he was in a rough area, like some have suggested. He provided no reason whatever.

(2) One can still pin a motive on him: in the twilight of his life, he has nothing to lose with no criminal record. He could have easily predictably with some certainty that he would not see jail time. So one motive is he did it for spirituality: for the society. The man failed the ritual, and he pulled the real gun. And yes, he had 2 guns, only one of which was cited as being his legally.

(2) It is not clear that it was detached from Freemasonary. With all the ambiguity regarding the dozens of articles about this, suspicion surfaces. It appears that the Masons tried to cover their tracks regarding Mayo's comments, which were released in the AP article, saying it was an initiation into the 2nd Degree. The latter can be contested, but I called and asked both the Washington Times and the NY AP and they stand by their story: the burden is on those disputing Mayo's comments to provide verification that is was a mistake. Most articles out there don't mention Police statements and witness testimonies, just that it was not part of Freemasnoary. The other articles I have read are almost all written by Masons. The witnesses say the shooting ritual goes back over 70 years.

What still needs to be done: I need to talk to Steve and I need to find out how old the "Fellow Craft Club" is. Course, I would love to talk to witnesses.

freudling

I'm glad you're looking into this and I hope you get to the truth of the matter. Just one question though...

I posted previously some points to show that guns aren't used in masonic ritual, and you appear to have missed it.

1. Masonic ritual is widely available on the net, and in the UK at least from bookshops.

2. Nowhere, in any masonic ritual of any order, regular or irregular, has there at any time been guns used. This is verifiable information.

Surely determining that will help you in understanding what happened?

Originally posted by akilles
You guys also say numbers and geometric figures and symbolism are no more important to Freemasons than any one else.

Point rested.

Originally posted by senrak

Maybe. Then again, maybe...just MAYBE most of us have a lot better things to do that waste our time at the music store looking for evil symbolism. Christ on a crutch! What in the WORLD does this silliness have to do with ANYTHING other than some music groups use certain geometric symbols.

Oh, wait. I forgot. It has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING....just the silly ramblings of a troll (and not a very good one, I might add)

Point proven.

[edit on 17-3-2005 by ThePunisher]

[edit on 17-3-2005 by ThePunisher]

Originally posted by akilles
News flash: Witnesses report 400 years to be 'over 70 years old'.

This is the best, most hilarious sentance you have ever posted. I was rolling dude...


Masonic Light: Superb posts my friend.

Freudling: I haven't forgotten about you I have just had some heavy stuff going on and haven't had much time lately. I'll get back to you, the case isn't going anywhere.

And I'm not surprised the newspapers aren't responding well to you. Like they care? Right? I can hear it now: "Hello can I help you? Sir- Sir- Slow down- You're what? You're... You're trying to prove a point on an internet conspiracy forum?! Oh yes, yes, absolutely! We'll help all we can! Just tell us what you need us to do!" Come on. They've got jobs to do too, like they give a rat's ass about ATS. As far as they're concerned that's ancient history and they have no reason to dig it up other than your curiosity. I'm not trying to bust your balls but look at it from the other side, you know?

I hope you do get the facts, and like I said before you have my respect but I don't think you are going to find what you are looking for. The facts are going to turn out to be the facts, I'm afraid.

I'll get back to you about that U2U though, I haven't forgotten, just been delayed.

[edit on 3/17/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by freudling
(2) One can still pin a motive on him: in the twilight of his life, he has nothing to lose with no criminal record. He could have easily predictably with some certainty that he would not see jail time. So one motive is he did it for spirituality: for the society. The man failed the ritual, and he pulled the real gun. And yes, he had 2 guns, only one of which was cited as being his legally.

DUDE DO YOU KNOW WHAT A [B]MOTIVE[/B] IS!?!?!?! THAT is NOT a motive!!!

mo·tive : An emotion, desire, physiological need, or similar impulse that acts as an incitement to action.

Just because one thinks they can get away with something is not A MOTIVE. A motive is a reason to cause someone to take action against that person and kill them. What are you saying, that he just wanted to kill SOMEONE? You don't have any evidence that suggests that, therefore your claim is baseless. It is purely circumstancial evidence, which is bogus.

So one motive is he did it for spirituality: for the society

That DOES fit your definition, dude. I may have a motive to do something, but if I think I will get arrested, that can be a deterrent from actually doing it.

Keep jumping on me though. There is a lot of hand waving. Spiral in, spiral out. Funny how people just can't knock the bias out and aknowledge an inconsistency that needs to be cleared. Well, 6:48am, off to lecture yet again to a group of tired computer programmers.

Have a better one.

Originally posted by freudling
So one motive is he did it for spirituality: for the society

That DOES fit your definition, dude. I may have a motive to do something, but if I think I will get arrested, that can be a deterrent from actually doing it.

Keep jumping on me though. There is a lot of hand waving. Spiral in, spiral out. Funny how people just can't knock the bias out and aknowledge an inconsistency that needs to be cleared. Well, 6:48am, off to lecture yet again to a group of tired computer programmers.

I'm not trying to be hard on you, but that's NOT a motive. PLEASE someone back me up on this. Freudling think that's just because the guy MIGHT have thought he could get away with murder, that means that he had a motive! That's absurd.

Not only is it absurd but could Freudling please explain to me why the police were called to the scene if the shooter thought he could get away with it?

Of course Freudling's argument will be that he called the police because he knew tha he would get away with it, but this defies logic. You don't kill someone on purpose with pre-meditation and then take a chance that it will be believed as an accident. It's far safer to dispose of the evidence. And if it was pre-mediated wouldn't there have been a plan to get rid of the corpse? "Oh, we'll just let the police come and get it and charge our brother with manslaughter".

This theory gets more and more outrageous the more that he expands on it. How can a person promote further questionable material when he hasn't even proven the foundation? What's next? Space aliens as the motive for murder? Is that why the shooting took place? It's as likely and as formulaic in logical procession as anything else that has been put forward so far.



[edit on 18-3-2005 by Leveller]

I clearly stated his motive: HE DID IT FOR THE SOCIETY. Thinking you can get away with something can be necessarily associated with your motive. This point comes up over-and-over in Court cases. Funny though, I am not concerned with figuring out his motive, but rather, clearing up what Mayo said. So, back on track: Evidence to refute Mayo's comments is needed. If not, end of discussion.