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Masons and conspiracy theories

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posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 07:52 AM
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Ah Leveller:

The childesh Leveller, once again adding nothing of importance to the topic. Sebatwerk: I outlined the motive argument some pages back: perhaps in Eid's old age, he had nothing to lose by doing this. He ended up getting 5 years probation and no jail time. I of course cannot say for sure. In fact, I have made no concrete, hard conclusions. What I am trying to ascertain is wether Steve Mayo actually said what he was paraphrased as saying. As for shootings, I agree 100% Sebatwerk, that shootings like this, if indeed they are part of the second degree, could possibly be in high numbers, since Freemasonary has some 3.5 million members, making 3.5 million potential shootings as they passed through the second degree. But all I know is what witnesses told Police, what Mayo was paraphrased as saying, and what the Masons have publicly stated. I should not have said "murder" but rather, Eid was charged with Manslaughter. Also, a link provided by Leveller (I think) mentioned a shooting at a Masonic lodge over 100 years ago, so something like this has happened before.

I work, from time-to-time, at a major Business Newspaper head office in Central Europe. This Newspaper exists in many different countries. I ran this whole situation by some people there today, and they are extremely sceptical of it being an accident, so before anybody else comes on here and attacks me, know that there are some major questions that need to be answered before we can definatively say that this was an accident and had nothing to do in anyway with Freemasonary. Also, I am not saying this was NOT an accident. The way I presented the case to them was thus, and try to get yourself out of your position and into theirs, hearing this information for the first time:

"There was a shooting at a Masonic Lodge in New York in March of 2004. A long-time Freemason was the perp, who fired a fatal shot into the face of another Freemason, during a ritual into the Fellowcraft, the second degree within Masonary, as stated in an AP article ran in the New York Times and the Washington Times, among others. There were many witnesses on the scene who gave testimony to Police. Eid, the perp, said he had two guns in his pockets and one had real bullets, the other blanks - he accidently pulled out the wrong gun. No explanation was given by Eid as to why he was carrying and loaded gun in the basement of a Masonic Lodge. The witnesses, as stated in the AP article said, despite what Masons have said publicly about guns being used in rituals, the firing ritual goes back over 70 years. There is one problem with this, however: other articles were published and I read 4 of them. In those 4 articles, it stated that the ritual was part of an initiation into the Fellow Craft Club, a club within Masonary, but not associated with Masonary, more or less. 3 of those 4 articles were written by Masons, and perhaps the last one as well."

Now, after hearing this, most people smirk and lean towards it being a cover up. It is not just me is what I am trying to say. So, Axeman and myself are working on this to clear up some discrepencies.

[edit on 4-3-2005 by freudling]




posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 11:17 AM
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freudling

Would it not be useful to get a copy of a ritual book and see if there is any reference to guns in the second degree? This might very well be a pointer for you.

I do feel you are going the long way round on this one as the only people who are going to know the answer to this are freemasons who have been through the degree itself. All of us have confirmed the issue of guns in freemasonry and so I can only conclude that you believe us all to be covering up.

As guns are not legal in the UK, and has no-one has ever breathed a word to the media etc about guns in freemasonry in the UK, it might be fair to assume that there aren't any.

As all of the ritual in the US is descended from either England, Scotland or Ireland and so it must be equally fair to assume that if guns are used in the US they must have been specifically introduced into some, or all, State Grand Lodges any time after the 18th Century.

Why don't you ask some of the well known former masons who campaign against freemasonry (usually on religious grounds) if they have ever seen gun play in open lodge? They would certainly have no incentive to cover anything up as you feel the rest of us have. U2U me and I would be happy to get you in touch with one or two if it helps in your quest.



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 11:34 AM
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Nice to see how you hypocritically call others names whilst whining when the same thing is supposedly done to you, Freudling.
I would say that being "childish" is accusing somebody of murder when they're only guilty of an accident. Eid was old so he had "nothing to lose"? Pathetic. Old people are murderers because they haven't got long left to live? Yeah sure. The streets of the world are littered with the victims of pensioners. Just how do you logically conclude that you aren't making accusations of murder when you make statements like the one above?

As for the press reports you wanted?

Associated Press :

"William James, 47, was killed Monday night at the Southside Masonic Lodge.
"We believe it was completely accidental," said Suffolk County Detective Lt. Jack Fitzpatrick."

web.mit.edu...

CNN:

"Albert Eid, 76, of Patchogue, was arrested and faced an arraignment Tuesday, said Officer Al Prim, a Suffolk County Police spokesman.
No further details were immediately available, Prim said.
In a statement early Tuesday, Carl Fitje, grand master of the New York State Freemasons, said there had been no formal Masonic ceremonies scheduled for Monday night. He said guns did not play a role in any officially sanctioned lodge ceremonies."

web.mit.edu...

New York Post:

"William James, 47, was killed as he underwent the rite for the Fellow Craft Club, a division of the Southside Masonic Temple in Patchogue, said Suffolk Detective Lt. Jack Fitzpatrick.

web.mit.edu...

New York Times:

"A new member of the Fellow Craft Club, a select group within the lodge, would sit in a chair while an older member stood 20 feet away and fired a handgun loaded with blanks.

web.mit.edu...

News12:

"In a statement released Tuesday morning, the lodge's grand master said there had been no formal Masonic ceremonies scheduled for Monday night. He said guns did not play a role in any officially sanctioned lodge ceremonies."

web.mit.edu...

Newsday:

And, 20 feet away, Albert Eid, 76, a trustee of the Fellowcraft Club, the club James was hoping to join, stood with two guns in his front pants pockets.

web.mit.edu...

Link containing the Grandmaster of New York's statement regarding press confusion.

"The death of Brother William James on March 8, 2004
has been widely reported in the public media. We are
deeply anguished and outraged because a fellow Mason
has died in an incident that never should have
happened. Based on currently available information,
it appears that the death occurred during a Southside
Fellowcraft Club social meeting held in the basement
of a building in Patchogue, New York where South Side
Lodge No. 493 meets. Media reports reflecting a lack
of information and understanding of Freemasonry in New
York may have created certain public misconceptions.
The incident did not involve a Masonic Lodge meeting,
the use of a Masonic Lodge room, or any New York
Masonic Ritual. The social club involved was not
itself a Grand Lodge sanctioned Masonic organization.
"

web.mit.edu...

A page from FreemasonryWatch. Even they don't dispute that this was not a sanctioned Masonic event.
They also refer to another Newsday article.

www.freemasonrywatch.org...

Another refutatation that this was a sanctioned event.

www.msana.com...

Associated Press:

"Police called the shooting "completely accidental," but Eid was charged with second-degree manslaughter. He pleaded innocent and bail was set at $2,500.
Carl Fitje, grand master of the New York State Freemasons, said in a statement that guns have no role in any sanctioned ceremonies."

www.fortwayne.com...



One only has to Google to find that a Fellowcraft club is not the Masonic degree.


"What is a Fellowcraft Club?"
www.google.com...

"What is the FellowCraft Degree?"
www.google.com...

As for what Mayo said?

Washington Times:

"We don't use pistols," Steve Mayo, who described himself as a senior deacon of the lodge, told reporters yesterday. "This is not a Masonic ceremony where we bring pistols."

www.washtimes.com...



[edit on 4-3-2005 by Leveller]



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 06:57 PM
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I am so tired of this crap. I think I should stop posting here. Leveller, chirst, I know! I have read those articles and they do NOTHING to further this. Somebody has to provide proof that the following was a misquote:

Mr. Mayo said the Monday night ceremony was an initiation into the Fellow Craft, which is the second degree within the multilevel Masonic system.

Witnesses said this ritual goes back over 70 years. No explanation why Eid had his gun down there. Most of those links you posted are articles I have already read and are written by Masons. They do not, per sey, refute the above. Further, those links about the Fellowcraft Club are a joke: did you even read them? I checked them out and they say nothing about what exactly the Fellowcraft Club is. Therefore, they are useless. I am done with this garbage and will report back after I get a statement from the Police and talk to Mayo personally, if possible. I am also trying to get hold of witnesses. Take it easy.

Freudling



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 07:05 PM
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Originally posted by freudling
I am so tired of this crap. I think I should stop posting here. Leveller, chirst, I know! I have read those articles and they do NOTHING to further this. Somebody has to provide proof that the following was a misquote:

Mr. Mayo said the Monday night ceremony was an initiation into the Fellow Craft, which is the second degree within the multilevel Masonic system.

Freudling



Freudling, the proof is in the pudding! EVERYBODY knows that the fellowcraft ritual involves NONE of the things those guys were doing, so it could not possibly have been the case. What's more, OTHER ARTICLES have claimed it to be a ritual of their "Fellowcraft CLUB". put 2 and 2 together, bro.



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 07:08 PM
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Originally posted by freudling
Sebatwerk: I outlined the motive argument some pages back: perhaps in Eid's old age, he had nothing to lose by doing this. He ended up getting 5 years probation and no jail time. I of course cannot say for sure. In fact, I have made no concrete, hard conclusions.



Freud: A motive is a REASON as to why he would have wanted to killed him. Doesn't matter if he thought he could get away with it or not, you can't pin a motive on him and without that there is no murder.



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 09:21 PM
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Originally posted by freudling
I am so tired of this crap. I think I should stop posting here.


What a shame....



Leveller, chirst, I know!


Chirst I know too! ...but I had no idea YOU knew.

Who knew?!?!



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 10:25 PM
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Originally posted by freudling
Somebody has to provide proof that the following was a misquote:

Mr. Mayo said the Monday night ceremony was an initiation into the Fellow Craft, which is the second degree within the multilevel Masonic system.

Witnesses said this ritual goes back over 70 years.


I think the very last sentence proves that it was a misquote. The so-called "Fellow Craft Club"'s ritual goes back 70 years, but the Fellow Craft Degree Ritual of Masonry goes back at least 4 centuries.

[edit on 4-3-2005 by Masonic Light]



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 12:00 AM
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News flash: Witnesses report 400 years to be 'over 70 years old'.

Fellow Craft initiation mystery deepens.

Oh well, atleast someone didn't pay this Eid guy's bail, then wait for him to get out of jail and throw him into a horse drawn carriage, and take him off to his death (think Sep 11, 200 years ago).

As for a motive, what could it possibly be? Either some one thought he was getting in for the wrong reasons, or someone didn't.



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 02:43 AM
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You guys are all right: let's call it an accident.

Best wishes.

Freudling



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 03:08 AM
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Originally posted by freudling
You guys are all right: let's call it an accident.


ARGH! Why are all you conspiracy theorists like that!?!? You seem to think that you're so much more perceptive and discerning than everyone else, especially people who just dont buy into your theories-- if they're not "part of it", then they're just blind or close-minded.

When you make outrageous claims, it's up to you to present solid evidence to back them up. When you don't, people stop taking you seriously. The longer your argument goes on without giving people something solid to work with, the weaker your platform gets and eventually breaks down.

So don't get frustrated dude, it's not that we're too dumb or blind to see what you're saying. It's just that we can't look at the rest of your argument when one part of it doesn't hold up.



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 05:24 AM
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Originally posted by freudling
I Most of those links you posted are articles I have already read and are written by Masons.


That's blatantly untrue. Out of the 13 links I've posted above only two are written by Freemasons - whereas your whole argument rests on one misquote.
One of those links is the letter from the NY Grandmaster. The other explains the basis behind the club.

One thing you might want to do is compare the quote of Mayo I gave with the words that he supposedly said regarding the Second Degree which you can't let go (which, by the way, is not exactly a quote).



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk


ARGH! Why are all you conspiracy theorists like that!?!?


Just for the record, and for the sake of impartiality, Freudling hasn't shown himself to be a conspiracy theorist. I don't always agree with Freudling, but at least his questioning of Masonry comes from an actual incident (the NY shooting), instead of fictional conspiracy stories (which akilles propagates).



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by sebatwerk
ARGH! Why are all you conspiracy theorists like that!?!?


Just for the record, and for the sake of impartiality, Freudling hasn't shown himself to be a conspiracy theorist. I don't always agree with Freudling, but at least his questioning of Masonry comes from an actual incident (the NY shooting), instead of fictional conspiracy stories (which akilles propagates).


Maybe so, but he's still acting superior to all the people who are arguing against him.



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 03:11 PM
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Not saying this is entirely related, but isn't their symbolic death associated with some Masonic rituals?

OK, its not gun play, I'll give you that.

But why can't we take a fatal stance, and say this guy had it coming. He didn't tell his wife, and God was mad
.

Oh #... Propagating lies AGAIN.

Sorry about that. You know its like a floodgate... Next thing I'll be calling Jim Shaw a disinformation agent. I knew that when he said he was re-born Christian though. They don't have that good track record among celebrities
, its like a clean slate to keep doing bad ish.

[edit on 5-3-2005 by akilles]



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by akilles
Next thing I'll be calling Jim Shaw a disinformation agent. I knew that when he said he was re-born Christian though. They don't have that good track record among celebrities


The thing with Shaw is that some of the stuff he wrote was true, while other stuff he completely made up.

The Stuff Shaw Told The Truth About:

1. Jim Shaw was indeed a Mason. He was initiated in Evergreen Lodge No. 713, in Indianapolis, IN, on September 11, 1945 (thought you'd like that date, akilles!). He received the Second and Third Degrees on May 21, 1946 and July 23, 1946, respectively, in Biscayne Bay Lodge No. 124 in Miami. He transferred his membership to Allapattah Lodge No. 271 in Miami on July 1, 1952, and remained a member there until he resigned from the Fraternity on Oct. 25, 1966.

2. Shaw told the truth about being a member of the Scottish Rite. He joined the Rite in 1952, and received the 14° on October 27, the 18° on Oct. 29, the 30° on Nov. 5, and the 32° on Nov. 9 of that year.

3. Shaw also told the truth about being on the Maundy Thursday ritual team, and about being Degree Master of the 25°.

Stuff That Shaw Lied About:

1. Shaw claimed that he was a Past Master, i.e., that he had once served as Worshipful Master of his Blue Lodge. Shaw was never an officer in Indiana. In 1964, he was appointed Steward of Allapattah Lodge, and was appointed Junior Deacon in 1965. He resigned in 1966. He was never elected to any Masonic office, much less Worshipful Master.

2. Shaw claimed that there were "blood oaths" for each Scottish Rite Degree. In reality, the symbolic physical penalties of the Scottish Rite degrees were removed from the ritual by Albert Pike, when he revised them in the 1850's. Shaw's assertion that Scottish Rite rituals contain "blood oaths" is simply a bald-faced lie.

3. Shaw claimed to "Past Master of All Scottish Rite Bodies", which would mean that he had served as Venerable Master of the Lodge of Perfection, Wise Master of the Chapter of Rose Croix, Commander of the Council of Kadosh, and Master of Kadosh of the Consistory. Ironically, he had never been elected to, nor served in, even one of these offices, much less all four.

4. Shaw claimed that he received the 33°. But, in fact, Shaw was never elected nor invited to receive the 33°, and thus his entire description of the degree ritual, as well the whole story about him going to D.C. to receive it, is 100% fictional.

Following is a link to a webpage that shows proof of my claim. It features a photocopy of a letter written by Shaw to the Scottish Rite Secretary a month before he resigned, where he states he is looking forward to get back involved in the meetings. Next is a photocopy of his resignation letter and his membership card, dated Oct. 25; note that his card describes him as 32° KCCH, not 33°. Comapre this with the Temple Reunion program, dated May 8, 1966, which lists him as being degree master of the 25°; it denotes him there also as 32° KCCH, and the photo of Shaw in the brochure shows him wearing the cap of 32° KCCH, not 33°.

Further, there is a letter showing his official demit, which denotes him as 32° KCCH, and the letter from the Sovereign Grand Inspector General of Florida also denotes him as 32° KCCH.

www.tx-mm.org...

There were other lies liberally sprinkled in his book, but these are the most important ones.



posted on Mar, 6 2005 @ 03:12 PM
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Making him a disinformation agent.

I already suspected as much, but thanks for showing the important facts in your opinion.

So what were his true motivations for resigning? So he could write a book? Couldn't he just ask for approval from the Scottish Rite Supreme Council, and wouldn't they merely suggest he sprinkle in some lies, and make up an elaborate story about leaving Masonry for his re-born Christian faith?

Sometimes you just go with the flow



posted on Mar, 6 2005 @ 04:49 PM
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Originally posted by akilles
Making him a disinformation agent.


He did that by himself, without any help from me; as I mentioned earlier, his book "The Deadly Deception" is aptly titled.


So what were his true motivations for resigning? So he could write a book?


Did you actually take a look at the page I linked to? There is a photocopy of his resignation letter, where Shaw writes that he is leaving Masonry because he wants to devote his time to Bible School, and become a minister.

A few important things can be surmised from these letters: it shows that he originally intended to return to Masonry, per his original letter, but only decided to resign 5 weeks later. It also shows that, even though he requested a demit per resignation, he offered to help confer the 25° in the Fall Reunion of the Miami Scottish Rite Temple so as not to place a hardship on the other members of the degree team. And finally (and most importantly in this regard), we see all the evidence in black and white that Shaw was a 32° Knight Commander of the Court of Honour when he resigned, not a 33°, as he falsely claimed some 20 years later.


Couldn't he just ask for approval from the Scottish Rite Supreme Council, and wouldn't they merely suggest he sprinkle in some lies, and make up an elaborate story about leaving Masonry for his re-born Christian faith?


It's important to note that when Shaw left Masonry, he wasn't "anti-Masonry". That came years later, when he saw there was money to made from it. Shaw, after all, was silent for a very long time; then, all of a sudden, he comes to the conclusion that Masonry is the devil's playground.

Sorry, I don't buy it. I do, however, understand that it's easier for Masons to see through Shaw's lies than non-Masons. After all, we know he's lying from our personal experience and knowledge of Masonic ritual and law; fortunately, though, the non-Masons just don't have to take our word for it, and can verify the facts independently.

The Supreme Council 33° meets once every two years, at which time they elect new KCCH's and 33°'s. The names of all the members who have been elected either to the KCCH or 33° appear in the next issue of the Transactions of the Supreme Council, which contain the minutes to the Supreme Council meeting, and the speeches there given. These books are available to the public, and can be found in large public libraries. If you go back to the '60's, you will find James Dayton Shaw listed as having been elected to be invested with the Order of Knight Commander of the Court of Honour, an honor bestowed upon Shaw by the Supreme Council that we've never denied. But you will not find him in the lists of members who have been nominated, nor elected, to the 33°.

Fortunately, the inconsistency in Shaw's story here is almost infinitely easy to demonstrate. Shaw claims (truthfully) that he received the Knight Commander of the Court of Honor December 18, 1965. However, he doesn't tell us when he supposedly received the 33°...but he gives us a hint, and this hint is self-contradictory, and proves he was lying.

On p. 90 of his book, he wrote:

I had been a K.C.C.H. for only four years. A man cannot even be considered for the 33rd Degree until he has been a K.C.C.H. four years. I was being considered for the 33rd in the minimum time!

Shaw is above referring to Article IV, Section 9, of the Statutes of the Supreme Council, which reads in part that all nominees for the 33° must be at least 35 years of age, and must have been Knight Commander of the Court of Honour for at least 46 months previously to being nominated to the 33°.

Now, I'm no expert mathematician, but I know that if Shaw received the KCCH in 1965, and that if he claimed to have been elected to the 33° in the minimum time of 4 years, that would mean that he must have received the 33° in 1969. Upon checking the 1969 Transactions of the Supreme Council, I do not see his name listed among those who received the 33° that year. This is hardly surprising, considering the fact that he resigned from Masonry on October 25, 1966, ten months after receiving the K.C.C.H.




[edit on 6-3-2005 by Masonic Light]



posted on Mar, 6 2005 @ 08:25 PM
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So the long time that he was quiet, was to distance himself from his Masonic allegiances?

Did he happen to release his book in accordance with the Satanic Ritual Abuse scare that happened in the 80s? Is that the cashing in you mean?

And so Zoroastrianism is conveyed in the 32 degree, what knowledge is received in the 33 degree? Why the insistence that there is no corresponding 'power' that comes with the degree?

Because that would destroy the insistence that a Mason goes as high as he wants, as high as he is able. Because that means something is being kept from the rest, wouldn't it?



posted on Mar, 6 2005 @ 08:37 PM
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Originally posted by akilles
So the long time that he was quiet, was to distance himself from his Masonic allegiances?


I would say that the during the time he was quiet on the subject, he couldn't have cared less.


Did he happen to release his book in accordance with the Satanic Ritual Abuse scare that happened in the 80s? Is that the cashing in you mean?


The book was published in the 80's, but Shaw didn't claim that Masonry was involved in any satanic ritual abuse, or that the two were in any way connected. What he did claim was that Masonry taught salvation by good works and reincarnation, both of which were contrary to Christian teachings.

Now, I personally have received all the degrees that Shaw did, plus a great many more that he did not receive (for example, Shaw was never a member of the York Rite or the York appendant bodies). Furthermore, I've been a Masonic official in the past, and have participated in its government, which Shaw did not. Neither reincarnation nor salvation by good works are taught as being correct doctrines in Masonry. These ideas are indeed talked about in a couple of the degrees, but it is never claimed that they are true, only that some people have believed such things, and it is important for the Masonic philosopher to investigate such matters when studying the development of religion and morals.


And so Zoroastrianism is conveyed in the 32 degree, what knowledge is received in the 33 degree? Why the insistence that there is no corresponding 'power' that comes with the degree?


As has been mentioned a zillion times here, the 33° is honorary. It was originally created simply to recognize the voting members of the Supreme Council. It was later adapted where it could be conferred on any member to honor them for their service. The actual ritual of the degree concerns the legendary history of the Knights Templar.


Because that would destroy the insistence that a Mason goes as high as he wants, as high as he is able. Because that means something is being kept from the rest, wouldn't it?


You guys are the ones claiming that, not us. Also mentioned a zillion times before, there is nothing "higher" than a Master Mason. A 33° Mason has been honored by the Supreme Council, and kudos to him on a job well done. But he doesn't "outrank" any other Master Mason by virtue of that degree.



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