Masons and conspiracy theories

I'm not a Freemason and the only Freemasons I've spoken to, have been here.
But I am, as one kind person said, a true seeker. As such I have read many books, by authors at different ends of the spectrum. Some authors have been trying to prove points others disprove points, more yet were just seeing which way the wind blows.

In my experience the religious authors, no matter how intelligent they appear to be, ignore glaringly obvious facts, often acquired by historical scholars with no axe to grind, simply to prove the authenticity of the origins of their teachings. HAVE FAITH they cry, when they cannot explain the most simple of anomalies.

The Freemasons on the other hand, although they have there devout christians, are more willing to look at the areas in question and say, well what really happened here, to spawn the tales we have today. They are open to alternative view points surrounding the birth of christianity, therefore they are equally happy to entertain a slanted relationship with Jesus or God, based on a greater understanding of the true historical events.

Everybody is aware that the story of Noah is taken from the much earlier story of Gilgamesh. Everyone except those with faith.
Most people are now aware that Christ was not born on 25/12. Despite the church burying their head in the sand, even they were forced to admit this.
Most, true, scholars believe it unlikely that The Virgin Mary was anything of the sort.
But I guess the church won't be making any statements shortly.

Many Masons will find alternative religious views intolerable in there personal lives, but it is a credit to their organisations, that within the lodge the emphasis is on tolerance and the pursuit of knowledge, however uncomfortable the results might be.


[Edited on 22-5-2004 by Smudge]

Originally posted by Smudge
Many Masons will find alternative religious views intolerable in there personal lives, but it is a credit to their organisations, that within the lodge the emphasis is on tolerance and the pursuit of knowledge, however uncomfortable the results might be.

Why would it be uncomfortable?
My opinion is that everyone has a right to believe in whichever and whatever god they choose.

Personally, I'm not, nor ever have been of a religious faith. This doesn't mean that I hate all people who follow the Christian, Muslim or Judaic faith. What I do get upset about is when those people affect my life adversely when they are following those faiths.

I've chosen to follow my God. In my heart, I know that I am right, but I have no right to tell anyone else to follow Him, just as nobody else should have a right to tell me to follow thiers. It doesn't mean that I should look down on them either. Life is all about choices. And even though I know that I am right, who is to say that they aren't also correct in the choice of their own god?

I never get uncomfortable about people following their own god or an organised faith's god - as long as the way that they worship doesn't threaten to harm me or mine.

Originally posted by Undomiel
So the phrase "Nature's God" is a bit ...shall we say atheistic?

Not at all. The belief that the terms �Nature� and �God� are interchangeable is called �Pantheism� (which literally means �all is God�), and is not atheistic.
The Spanish philosopher Baruch Spinoza first coined the term, and taught Pantheism. Other self-professed Pantheists include W. Johannes Goethe, Stephen Hawking, Albert Einstein, Tenzin Gyatso (the current Dalai Lama), and Carl Gustav Jung. Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, Plotinus, Pythagoras, Buddha, Confucius, Lao Tze, and Xenophanes are examples of early Pantheistic thinkers.
I myself subscribe to Pantheism, since it is the only theological argument that makes sense to me. If we truly believe that God is omnipresent, I can reach no other conclusion. Instead of being some sort of spirit or old man sitting on a cloud, He is an ever present Reality, limitless (what the Qabalists call Ain Soph). He does not exist separately from Nature, but is the very Life itself of Nature.
The Brethren who mentioned that Masonry does not teach Pantheism are correct. The Qabalah (or �Kabbalah�) is usually seen as pantheistic, but Masonry only recommends the study of the Qabalah, and does not force it upon its members.
Instead of teaching that men are gods, Qabalah and Pantheism teach that a spark of the Divine lives within us. Christ Himself declared that the kingdom of heaven is within. Not only us, but in all creatures there is the Divine, and is the reason that not even a single sparrow falls without His knowledge.
The purpose of mysticism is to think outside the box. It was impossible for men to think of God in terms other than what they what they accustomed to. In a sense, man created God in his own image, attributing to Him the prejudices and jealousies of frail humanity.
But God is in every way Perfect, and does not reflect our imperfections. We can see the truth of this through the magical properties of Nature, each process being circumscribed by its own natural law, which is its Divine Law. The hummingbird transferring pollen from flowers no less than the planets moving in their orbits. God is not only a Grand Architect, as the Brethren call him, but also a Master Builder, constantly creating through His Ineffable Will. He not only lays down His designs through the laws observable in the physical sciences, but uses them to continuously create.
This Divine Being, I believe, can be no less than the sum total of all things. He is Life and the Bringer of Life, and as the Apostle Paul once stated, He is also Love, the aching of the heart toward Beauty, Peace, and Understanding. This belief is worlds apart from the vain theories of the Atheists.

(this was inspired by another post by a mason on these boards who said that God's handiwork was everywhere, which is true, but it is nature is not "God" as God is infinite, and the physical is finite.

I think I understand your meaning, but I disagree. You earlier described a difference between �spiritual� and �physical�, but I don�t believe such a difference exists outside of our own abstract thoughts. Remember, the word �spirit� is taken from the Latin �spiritis�, which literally means �breath�, i.e., the evidence of Life. Perhaps �spiritual� and �physical� are simply two different ways of talking about the same thing.
Your statement that the �physical is finite� is an example. We must ask: is this really the case? Certainly our finite bodies, at least the way we perceive them with our senses, are finite. But Nature itself? Is the Universe finite?
Let�s assume hypothetically that you and I are immortal, and have a spaceship that could travel at the speed of light, and have decided to explore the Universe. If we left earth in a straight line....where would we eventually arrive? A dead end sign? Or would we continue to travel forever, through infinite space, a �physical� concept? If the Universe is infinite, so, in a sense, is everything contained within it. Perhaps we are only �trained� to see things in a finite sense in order to comprehend them with a limited mind. The heart may be deceptive above all things, but our senses aren�t far behind.

Fiat Lvx.




[Edited on 22-5-2004 by Masonic Light]

Thank you for explaining your individual stances on the topic.

As far as spiritual and physical being the same thing, I think that is pretty much proven incorrect in christian teachings of the bible, although it may be supported by other religious texts. The bible speaks of the finite putting on the infinite, the physical putting on the spiritual. It's the entire premise of Jesus' life. Someone mentioned in another thread, that humanity was at one point, not in the physical dimension - specifically, when in the garden - as it represented our life in another, spiritual dimension in which we didn't have flesh and bones and therefore we were not in the physical realm but the spiritual realm. I don't recall now where he got this interpretation, but I recall thinking the interpretation seemed correct as it explained the "putting on of skins" as symbolic of our placement into the physical realm as the result of our choices in the garden.

Anyway, at that point, it boils down to a difference of interpretation and it opens up a whole new can of worms about the validity or lack thereof, of Paul the apostle, which I'm reeeeeeeeeally tired of arguing about. heh.

Masonic Light,

You seem to be stating in your post that Kabalistic thinking is pantheistic (I spell Kabbalah that way, and of course, because it is an Aramaic word, it's not even written in English letters, hence the variety of spellings).
I agree with you inasmuch as all nature is certainly contained within Ain Soph, but it seems clear to me that the doctrine includes the idea that Ain Soph is, if you will, "Nature plus everything else." I.e., Nature is part of Ain Soph, which is limitless, but Ain Soph is not part of nature. A very crude and completely inaccurate allegory might be my relationship with my foot: my foot is a part of me, but most people would not say I am part of my foot.

We may be falling down the slippery slope of terminology differences here, so let me clarify my position. If by �Nature� we mean trees, rivers, etc., then I would agree that this forms only a part of Ain Soph. But when using the capitalized �Nature�, I am generally referring to Nature in its highest sense, composing the infinite Universe and everything within it, including the so-called �natural laws� first discovered by Newton, and elaborated on by Darwin and Einstein.
As for spelling, it can be �Kabbalah�, �Qabalah�, or �Cabala�. All could be technically correct in transliteration, but �Kabbalah� usually refers to the orthodox Jewish school, �Cabala� by Christian commentators, and �Qabalah� by Hermeticists, although Levi, Pike, Mackey, and Mathers all used �Kabbalah�, so the variations in spelling are mostly only modern adaptations to express the viewpoint from which the Qabalah is considered.

The lady above makes several good points, and I do not really disagree in theory, only in terminology. From the Qabalistic perspective, the �Fall of Adam� refers to the descent of Spirit into Matter, and the skins used to clothe the First Parents being allegorical symbolism to describe the Body.
Scripture is full of hints to Qabalistic doctrine, but never expresses such openly. Paul�s idea that sin was worthwhile because Grace is so much more worthwhile sort of opens the problem. From the Qabalistic viewpoint, the �Fall�, whatever it really was, was necessary for existence. Without death, there can be no life in any sense of manifested consciousness, but only Potential, which is identified as Kether in the Qabalah.
But where sin did abound, so did Grace much more abound. This saying of the Apostle is in all reality the Summum Bonum, the Stone of the Philosophers, and the Universal Medicine. Jung studied the subject in depth in his essay �Christ: A Symbol of the Self�, to which I will refer interested parties, excepting only to add that Jung based his analysis on Freudian psychology, without the light of the Qabalah, which sheds even more detail.

Fiat Lvx.

i can shed some light on masons.

1. they have initiations/oaths/terms of agreement as well that trick whoever is joining into believing they are aware of what theyre actually signing their souls to.

2. they have wierd stuff going on at their meetings. cult-like dancing and still to this day perform equinox's etc.

3. it would be credible to assume they have ties with the Enlightened Ones, even orders of the eastern star, as well as d.o.r

4. they have their own languages sound to me how should i say ''luciferic'' type. ive attended a meeting before. and its pretty wierd. anyone whose interested surely shouldnt join.

Regarding the points above:

1. They are called "obligations." There is no other name for them. People often use other names, but they are "obligations."
We don't sign our souls to anything. The obligations don't say anything about our souls.

2. I have never ever seen dancing of any kind at any meeting. I've seen all kinds of stuff, but definitely NEVER any dancing.
I wonder what you mean by "performing equinoxes?" Equinoxes occur naturally... there's nothing anyone can do to encourage or discourage them.

3. It would be nice if you defined your terms. Who are the "Enlightened Ones" about whom you speak? I guess since I have no idea who you are talking about, I can safely presume that we do not have ties to any such group.

4. We have our own languages, do we? Are you sure you're not thinking of the Esperanto Society?
You say you've attended a meeting before. Sorry, but you haven't. If you had, #1) you'd know that what you are saying is complete codswallop, and #2) you'd have to be a Mason, which I'm positive you are not.
Anyone who's interested surely should consider joining, and think it through carefully.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
But when using the capitalized �Nature�, I am generally referring to Nature in its highest sense, composing the infinite Universe and everything within it, including the so-called �natural laws� first discovered by Newton, and elaborated on by Darwin and Einstein.

Hmmmm... I'm afraid I still can't agree with you that this is Qabbalah (I will certainly use this spelling if it pleases you, Brother). It is, of course, nonsensical to use positives when discussing Ain Soph (or at least I agree with Maimonides on this point, that only negative phrases can be descriptive), but I will risk being idolatrous and incorrect by saying that Ain Soph is by definition limitless. The universe is limited. So the Ain Soph includes more than just the universe.

If we look at the section of the Zohar for Bere#, we see that in the beginning of beginnings, the king etched etchings upon the luminosity. There was the formation of the circle (ring) that was not white nor black nor red nor green nor any colour, and then the spark occurred from which emerged the gushing that gave the other things colour.

It seems clear to me that the King "created space" within the Ain Soph, within which the spark emerged for whatever reason. I.e. the "material" of the Ain Soph was "drawn back" to allow the universe to exist. Hence the Ain Soph includes much much more than the universe.

Whew... I've done so much positive talking about the Ain Soph that I now feel profoundly blasphemous and dirty. At this rate, I might as well go join Madonna and Britney Spears and get a red string tied around my wrist (for $26 American, no less) to ward off the evil eye

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
i can shed some light on masons.

1. they have initiations/oaths/terms of agreement as well that trick whoever is joining into believing they are aware of what theyre actually signing their souls to.

Actually you are wrong, as no one is signing their souls to anything, but of course you would know this because you are a Mason right?

2. they have wierd stuff going on at their meetings. cult-like dancing and still to this day perform equinox's etc.

You use a great deal of malleabel terms. "Weird" in the typical sense means strange, and hence is relative to ones perception which is based upon ones experiences, there is no concrete stance on what is weird and what is not. "Stuff" what "stuff" are you refering to? the "cult-like dancing"??? "cult-like" implies that it is similar but not exactly like "cult dancing" , whatever that may be. So lets try to figure this one out.

"Cult" (kult) n. 1. A system or community of religious worship and ritual, espcially one focusing upon a single deity or spirit. 2. a. Obseessive devotion or veneration for a person, principle, or ideal. b. The object of such devoition. 3. An exlcusive group of persons sharing an esoteric interest.

Hmm, thats interesting, so I guess all religions would be considered a "cult" by the definition as they are all "systems or communitys of religious worship and ritual....." Freemasonry could be assigned to this definition as well as it is "an exclusive group of persons sharing esoteric interest."

But before people get confused and think esoteric has something to do with satanism and the like lets define it.

Esoteric: Adj. 1. Intedned for or understood by only a small group. 2. Difficult to understand; abstruse. 3. Not publicly disclosed; confidential.

So given this information I would then define "cult-like dancing" as; Dancing simliar to or like that practiced by members of a community of religious worship and ritual or those involved in esotericism.

Well isnt this interesting, I can think of no group of esoterics, nor religions which have such practices.

Moving on, you claim that we Masons "perform equinoxes". Well thanks for the compliment but you would have to give mother nature or God that credit as we Masons although very well versed in esoterics, don't perform the various equinoxes. Yes im being a smart ass. What you meant to claim was that wer perform rituals on the equinoxes. I wont claim that we do, nor dont, as it matters not, but various religions perform rituals for equinoxes and solstices as well. Take Christianity for instance, December 25th is the winter solstice, not the date of Yashua's (jesus's) birth. Constantine simply adopted this day as his birth to merge the followers of the old "pagan" religions and the new emerging Christians" So are people wrong, or evil for celebrating the winter solstice or the various equinoxes? In my humble opinion no, they are beautiful and key moments in the cycles of life, nature, and the universe. The showcase the magnificence of God and highlight the attachment of all living things.

3. it would be credible to assume they have ties with the Enlightened Ones, even orders of the eastern star, as well as d.o.r

Please specify who these so called "enlightened ones: are, as well as the "d.o.r." As for the Order of Eastern Stars, yes there are fraternal ties to them, they are like our sister branch so to speak, this is common knowledge, whats your point?

4. they have their own languages sound to me how should i say ''luciferic'' type. ive attended a meeting before. and its pretty wierd. anyone whose interested surely shouldnt join.

We have our own languages? Wow Really, thats amazing! What language is this? What's this about lucifer? or "luciferic" your language is bad, you're not making sense. What meeting did you attend? Who invited you?, Where was it held? Just for clarification you did not attend an actual Lodge meeting as you are not a Mason and therefore would not have been allowed to enter, so all this you are claiming is all really speculation.

Your post is a collage of mis-cut, tainted, pieces of information, soft undecisive language, and hot air. You obvioulsy know nothing about Freemasonry so I wonder why you feel as if you were capable of speeking on it. Forgive me if i've been an asshole in this reply, I know I have, but I like my Brethren take our craft very seriously. It is quite frustrating and annoying not only to be accused of so many false things, but also by those who know nothing, and have done no research. As a man who has debated thousands of topics hundreds of thousands of times over the span of my life I can say that I can respect men and their false opinions who I dont agree with as long as they have done research and have evidence to back up their claims. However people who simply assume things, take things on face value, and just make things up, piss me off, and im a bit tired of being nice and understanding about it.

Hotep

[Edited on 5/23/04 by Khonsu]

I sort of agree with Alex here. Isn't Nature a physicality?

I agree with Pantheism meaning God is everything if we look at it another way.
Man is a point within a circle. To me, everything within that circle has been created by God as the physical. Everything outside is the created spiritual. God himself is both inside and outside of the circle.

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
i can shed some light on masons.

Please let ATS readers know when you propose to make a start.

Conversely, I think the shedding of light by Freemasons on this topic is not bad at all.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
Hmmmm... I'm afraid I still can't agree with you that this is Qabbalah (I will certainly use this spelling if it pleases you, Brother).

�Qabalah� became a popular spelling around the turn of the 20th century. Today, it is the preferred spelling used by Hermetic scholars, because the Hebrew letter Qoph is generally begun with a �q� when transliterated into English, instead of the soft �Kaph�, which is not found in the Hebrew spelling of the word, and is denoted by the English �k�. According to Rabbi David Cooper, �Kabbalah� shows the influence of the Yiddish language on the word, while �Qabalah� is the most grammatically correct transliteration from the pure Hebrew. �Qabalah� was used exclusively by Dr. Paul Foster Case, Dion Fortune, Aleister Crowley, Charles Stansfeld Jones, and most modern Gentile subscribers of the Doctrine who have been initiated into the Western Mystery Tradition.

It seems clear to me that the King "created space" within the Ain Soph, within which the spark emerged for whatever reason. I.e. the "material" of the Ain Soph was "drawn back" to allow the universe to exist. Hence the Ain Soph includes much much more than the universe.

I must disagree, and I tend to take the same viewpoint as Pike, Crowley, Case, and Mathers. There can be no knowledge of things that cannot be compared; an attempt to comprehend such would be nothing more than an abstraction. But God is not abstract, He is an ever-present Reality.
I think Crowley�s definition of Ain Soph is the best, as he identified Ain Soph with �infinite space�, being the Body of Nuit. Pike, Case, and Mathers touched upon the subject, but Crowley elaborated in depth because it was central to his doctrine, which several years later was demonstrated by Einstein utilizing his relativity theory.
If we assume that the Hermeticsts and quantum physicists are correct concerning the infinity of the Universe, this in itself is Ain Soph, which means Without Limit.

For those desiring serious study of the ancient wisdom of the Qabalah, it is my pleasure to send an invitation to view the website of Builders of the Adytum. BOTA was founded by Dr. Paul Foster Case as the successor of the Alpha et Omega Temple of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, and has been serving Aspirants to the Qabalistic and Hermetic Sciences for almost a century. Our website is www.bota.org...

Fiat Lvx.





[Edited on 23-5-2004 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
i can shed some light on masons....

... ive attended a meeting before...

If you are a woman, I'd say you've NEVER attended a meeting. So, how would you shed any light about them.
What first-hand information do you have to offer? Or, at least reliable information, with credible links. I'm all for both sides of a debate, not just wild speculation.

topsecretombomb I will not give your post the benefit of being quoted; it�s that distasteful. I will instead ask that if this is a case of attempted humor, make it overtly so, and we might get a laugh. If you are engaged in any other activities, please cease, and desist. There have been several attempts by posters (posers?) to pass themselves off as either Masons or as someone who has managed to attend a meeting without the Light, Rights, and Benefits. Trust me, as a true traveling man (in the literal sense) if you are not fully prepared to put yourself in the position; you will embarrass yourself... GREATLY. The Craft has been insuring the sanctity of its Communications for a Millennium or more, (everyone has a different idea about length of time) and it's just not easy to circumvent our methods. A good example of how hard it is to fool us. All this being said the mental picture of the typical 60-70 year old Mason in full Masonic Regalia; undulating in a "possessed" dance is briefly humorous, but only because I know all those guys have two left feet. Now AK, your "pill" is doing some pretty bizarre stuff, anything you'd like to share with us about the Canadian Lodges?





[Edited on 23-5-2004 by Mirthful Me]

Well, as I keep telling you, that's no "pill," that's a picture of me at my High School Graduation Dance

As for Canadian Lodges... No offense against my Brethren, at all, but many of them are large older Scotsmen, and I don't think anybody wants to see any of us dance.

Hmm, thats interesting, so I guess all religions would be considered a "cult" by the definition as they are all "systems or communitys of religious worship and ritual....." Freemasonry could be assigned to this definition as well as it is "an exclusive group of persons sharing esoteric interest."

you talk about esoteric interests. well we all know the masons that first join arent even aware of what their fully getting themselves into. .

Please specify who these so called "enlightened ones: are, as well as the "d.o.r." As for the Order of Eastern Stars, yes there are fraternal ties to them, they are like our sister branch so to speak, this is common knowledge, whats your point?

if any brain has done any researching on the illuminati, masons etc. youd realize that they are refferred to as teh enlightened ones because the word illuminate means to do so. in a certain speaketh of course. you seem to know that churches are sometimes misplaced as cults? is that why you dont know that d.o.r stands for daughters of rebecca? yea you know who they are. khonshu ive been to masonic get togethers, daughters of rebecca ceremonys, eastern star ceremonies. theyre all the same. and they dont make any sense to me! my beliefs fill all the gaps for me.

Your post is a collage of mis-cut, tainted, pieces of information, soft undecisive language, and hot air. You obvioulsy know nothing about Freemasonry so I wonder why you feel as if you were capable of speeking on it. Forgive me if i've been an in this reply, I know I have, but I like my Brethren take our craft very seriously. It is quite frustrating and annoying not only to be accused of so many false things, but also by those who know nothing, and have done no research. As a man who has debated thousands of topics hundreds of thousands of times over the span of my life I can say that I can respect men and their false opinions who I dont agree with as long as they have done research and have evidence to back up their claims.

mis cut, tainted? pieces of information? soft undecisive language? and hot air? sure i dont make my punctuation perfect, like oldies do. excuse me if your older than me sure you are. but does that necessarily anyone that isnt you doesnt hold credible information? what if i told you my friends father is a drunk mason who leaves all his things laying around in his room? meaning we dont have to look through anything to figure masons out? well thats exactly what he does! so please dont talk down on someone whom you dont know. much less know anything about.
just because i advise about the dangers of fraternal groups doesnt mean you can pick at me and mistake my information as ''hot air.'' i dunno what oxygen youve been breathing lately.

Hmm.

I can find no reference to the "Daughters of Rebecca" except an overblown romance novel and an unexplained emblem. I personally have never heard of them. The traditional quasi-Masonic order for young women is "Job's Daughters." There is also the "Rainbow for Girls," which I believe is less popular.

Going to a "Masonic get-together" is different from going to a Lodge meeting. There may well have been dancing at a "Masonic get-together" because it may have been, you know, a dance. There is no dancing at Lodge meetings.

Masons take no obligation at any point which is contrary to their loyalties to God, their country, or their family. This is clearly stated to them. A mason put in a situation where his obligation would cause him to betray God, his family, or a justly formed govornment is obliged to ignore his obligation to Masonry.

You may well think of your friend's father as "drunk," but it is often the case that we badly misinterpret the charater and actions of adults when we are young. You claim that you have read all kinds of "Masonic stuff" that tells you all about Masonry... yet you seem to know nothing about Masonry. I can only conclude that you have misinterpreted what you have seen or are lying.

Originally posted by topsecretombomb

you talk about esoteric interests. well we all know the masons that first join arent even aware of what their fully getting themselves into. .

That doesn�t even make sense. I�ve never met a candidate for Masonry in my life who didn�t know what they were �getting into�. If not, why would they even join?
Before a man is initiated in my Jurisdiction, he is required to attend a Masonic education program, and the Fraternity�s books could fill several libraries. It is expected that new candidate have some basic knowledge of the Fraternity�s history and philosophy before his initiation. If this weren�t case, the Fraternity would have died long ago from lack of interest in it.

if any brain has done any researching on the illuminati, masons etc. youd realize that they are refferred to as teh enlightened ones because the word illuminate means to do so. in a certain speaketh of course. you seem to know that churches are sometimes misplaced as cults? is that why you dont know that d.o.r stands for daughters of rebecca? yea you know who they are. khonshu ive been to masonic get togethers, daughters of rebecca ceremonys, eastern star ceremonies. theyre all the same. and they dont make any sense to me! my beliefs fill all the gaps for me.

Daughters of Rebecca have nothing to do with Freemasonry. They are a ladies� auxiliary to the Oddfellows, a non-Masonic fraternal order.
Order of the Eastern Star is an auxiliary to Masonic Lodges in some countries, but nothing you�ve said indicates that you have ever attended any �functions� of either of these two organizations. Whether or not they make any sense to you is irrelevant. After all, what you say makes no sense to me either.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
you talk about esoteric interests. well we all know the masons that first join arent even aware of what their fully getting themselves into. .

Like your other posts you are wrong. You talk about me not talking down to someone I don't know yet its perfectly ok for you to talk down on the millions of Masons who you dont know and our craft.

if any brain has done any researching on the illuminati, masons etc. youd realize that they are refferred to as teh enlightened ones because the word illuminate means to do so. in a certain speaketh of course. you seem to know that churches are sometimes misplaced as cults? is that why you dont know that d.o.r stands for daughters of rebecca? yea you know who they are. khonshu ive been to masonic get togethers, daughters of rebecca ceremonys, eastern star ceremonies. theyre all the same. and they dont make any sense to me! my beliefs fill all the gaps for me.

Of course I know of the illuminati, but their name isn't the "enlightened ones". Its not their official title nor has it ever been, so me assuming that you meant them as well as you referring to them by such a title is in error.

Actually i've never heard of the d.o.r or daughters or Rebecca (look! I guess you do learn something new everyday!)as they are not affiliated to Freemasonry nor any of the things i've researched.

These ceremonies, that you claim to have seen make no sense to you because you are not a member~! This is the key point myself as well as many of the other Brethren have been trying to stress to you.

mis cut, tainted? pieces of information? soft undecisive language? and hot air? sure i dont make my punctuation perfect, like oldies do. excuse me if your older than me sure you are. but does that necessarily anyone that isnt you doesnt hold credible information? what if i told you my friends father is a drunk mason who leaves all his things laying around in his room? meaning we dont have to look through anything to figure masons out? well thats exactly what he does! so please dont talk down on someone whom you dont know. much less know anything about.
just because i advise about the dangers of fraternal groups doesnt mean you can pick at me and mistake my information as ''hot air.'' i dunno what oxygen youve been breathing lately.

I could care less about your grammar and punctuation, I was refering to your content. By the way who said I was so old? Watch making assumptions, that can be a dangerous habit. I have no problem accepting and appreciating information regardless to the contributors age, age is not a factor. However the point you seem to miss is that your information is inaccurate, its false, in short you dont know what you are talking about. I don't care how many books you've read regarding Freemasonry, nor how man fuctions you claim to have gone to, unless you are a member you will never undertstand. Im speaking to you as a man who did research regarding Freemasonry for years before I joined, im speaking to you not out of arrogance but out of experience, so heed my words.

P.S. Two things: 1. My name is Khonsu, not "khonshu". 2. Respect your elders, and stop rifling through things that do not belong to you, as you are only getting confused anyway, and have no right looking through them in the first place.