Masons and conspiracy theories

Well, from my reading here, I have come to the conclusion that Masons, as a group, are not involved in NWO. I guess Icke was wrong about a few things.

But, what brings so many Masons here to ATS lately?
What do you guys think about conspiracy theories? Do you come to ATS to educate people about Masons? Enjoyment or curiosity?
Could you share your reasons for being here?

I came here to learn more about the "evil" Masons and other secret groups who plan to take over the world.
I still think there is an agenda to overtake the world. I still think the government does not have our best interest at heart.

Actually, I came here a couple of years ago while doing some research on Area 51, etc.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe

[deletia]

I guess Icke was wrong about a few things.

Yaay! One more person no longer hates me because I belong to a benevolent fraternal organisation.

I don't mean anything nasty by this, but I'm often reminded of the Simpsons episode with John Waters, where John says to Homer,

"Well, Homer, I've finally earned your respect, and all I had to do was save your life. Now if every gay man in the world could do that, you'd be set!"

But, what brings so many Masons here to ATS lately?
What do you guys think about conspiracy theories? Do you come to ATS to educate people about Masons? Enjoyment or curiosity?
Could you share your reasons for being here?

I actually was looking for material on a speech I was to give to my Scottish Rite Valley on the meaning of the 18th degree, when I came across some hurtful piece of libel on this web-page. I was just at a seminar our Grand Lodge holds every year where I attended a session on anti-masonry, and afterwards two of my brethren pointed out to me that it should not be our way to hate anti-masons, but to embrace them and try through educaion to make them friends (Love thy enemy, don't you know). So, rather than dismissing such libel, I've given myself the challenge to try to help spread a little truth (and my brethren were right... I have found that many anti-masons are quite lovable people who simply have some deeply confused ideas).

I came here to learn more about the "evil" Masons and other secret groups who plan to take over the world.
I still think there is an agenda to overtake the world. I still think the government does not have our best interest at heart.

One thing you should know about Masonry, particularly Scottish Rite Masonry, is that it is dedicated to preventing the kind of take-over-the-world plots and attacks on liberty you're talking about. In my jurisdiction, both in the regular Lodge and in the Scottish Rite Valley, we are repeatedly admonished that we have an absolute duty to fight the tyrant and oppressor. So, if anything, Masonry is on your side against any such plots.

I should note, in a little historical reverie, that tyrants have in fact always tried to quash Masonry. Hitler, as I'm sure you know, shipped many many Masons to concentration camps or to penal garrisons on the Eastern front in WWII, Franco made Masonry illegal (and I believe also tortured Masons), Stalin did the same, as did Mussolini, etc., etc.. Freemasons have a special symbol we sometimes wear which was a very secret code from one person to another that both were Masons during WWII in Nazi Germany and Vichy France. Freemasons were also active in the French resistance (and believe me, the French who were not part of the Vichy gov't were very courageous fighters, as they have always been back to the time of Charlemagne, and despite the venemous slanders that seem to circulate these days).

Anyway, sorry to ramble on, there's my opinion.

What do you guys think about conspiracy theories?
Actually, I believe in conspiracy theories as much as the next person. I came here to read and discuss them with everyone.

Do you come to ATS to educate people about Masons?
Actually, when I first came to this site I looked at the space and science and really enjoyed them. I went to the secret society to learn about the Illuminati as I have only heard the name and basics. I was actually not going to get into Masonic discussions on this board. I did not want to get into arguments of ideas. But, I have read many posts of people asking serious questions, I thought that it is good to answer them.
Honest questions get honest answers.

Enjoyment or curiosity? Basically I come here to learn and share ideas. If I go to the space technology side, I can talk with, learn, and sometimes eve help others in discussion. This is a great site as it has many smart people in it. I love physics and study it for fun, but if I went to a physics forum to talk about the same stuff, I would get lost after about the first 10 seconds. So, here is a great place to share ideas on many subjects.


The same goes for this secret society site. I know really nothing about the illuminati, skull and Cross bones, or my favorite now.. the The Angellic Order of the Fairy Belles. So, I do not discount any of the ideas placed here and would liove to become enlightened myself.
After all, we should all try to discover the hidden mysteries of nature and science.

Could you share your reasons for being here? Probably stated above, but basically come here probably for many of the same reasons everyone else is here.

I hope it helps

Thanks for the replies Rahboni, AlexK and JCMin.
I think it is very true that you can win over people with honest answers to honest questions. I appreciate it.

JCMin, I should have told you why I why hear before I asked you the same.
I came here to learn the truth, wherever it may be. A cyber friend told me about ATS during a conspiracy discussion.
I had also read They Cast No Shadows : A collection of essays on the Illuminati, revisionist history, and suppressed technologies., by Brian Desborough. He has been researching conspiracy theories for thirty odd years. My next read was the Biggest seret. by David Icke. He basically said what Desborough said, but in greater detail and with lots of footnotes. So, I believed pretty much everything he said.

So, when I came here, I wanted the current version of the truth. There's lots of very smart people here. In an effort to deny ignorance, I try to keep an open minda bout everything. So, I began to wonder about what the Masons were really about.
I have come to believe Icke's image of the Masons is flawed.
I still believe a lot of what those two men said, esp. Desborough. I am very interested in hearing about suppressed knowledge as I do believe those who rule have decided what we are to have access to.
I hope this explains something about me. Feel free to ask
BTW, this is really the only place I can find good info on Masons as I am a woman, and they do not admit us.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
Yaay! One more person no longer hates me because I belong to a benevolent fraternal organisation.

I actually never hated Masons.
I did, however, think they were all involved in the plot to takeover the world.
I liked your remarks about the Mason stand against tyranny, esp. as it related to WWII.

Well, as brothers, we talk about our intersts, among other things, and someone just posted a comment on this place at a Masonic Website (MoM) so I decided to drop in.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
BTW, this is really the only place I can find good info on Masons as I am a woman, and they do not admit us.

Well, have you heard of the Eastern Star? Many wives of Masons are in this organization. This organization does let women in. www.easternstar.org...

Next, there is also Co-Freemasony, they also let women into the organization. Although not recognized by Freemason Lodges, these lodges have many good members that know alot about freemasonry. The only difference is that they let women in. www.comasonic.org...

If you are interested, I would say find a contact to one of these groups and have a discussion.

Thanks, JCMin...I'll take a look at those.
I'm not ready for that commitment yet, though
You are kind to offer that assistance.

Are Masons part of the NWO ?
I think so . Only 6 U.S presidents have-not been Masons. Most Judges are Masons.Many policemen are Masons. Defence lawyers are Masons .Prosecution lawyers are Masons. Jurors are Masons.
Masons help cover for one another ,they help one another to get promotion over more suitable candidates .
Lots of politicians are also Masons .Now in amongst all of these people all it takes is one corrupting influence to manipulate other Masons and all of a sudden you have a conspiracy on your hands.
Whether willingly or unwillingly Masons are most definitely part of the NWO.

All Presidents have been Christian, most jurors are religous or athiest. Most Judges are too, prosecutors as well, hey and just about anyone else that is working fits into one of the top 5 religions..... Are each one of them part of the NWO also??? Probably many of them were in the Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts.. Maye they are part of the NWO also.....

Hey, I came across another idea... they are also HUMAN!!! They must be in the NWO also...... If you go off your assumptions, the whole world is part of the NWO........

[Edited on 13-5-2004 by JCMinJapan]

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
Thanks, JCMin...I'll take a look at those.
I'm not ready for that commitment yet, though

You are kind to offer that assistance.

Well, there is no reason to have to commit.
You will not be pressured to join anything. You should not also. I mean just go to the loadge and talk with them about the organization. Get your feeling, take it back home with you, then think about... then decide to join or not. These are of course not for everyone and they are looking only for people that truly want to join. I say if you feel PRESSURE to join, definately stay away.

But, you should not be pressured and they will answer any questions you may have.

Freemasonry is definitely dealing with the occult.They worship Isis (the moon goddess, wife of the sun god Osiris).Look up mystery relgions, mythraism and there symbols and idols and see how our own country is filled with masonic and illuminous symnols.It also has the same symbols as some ancient Egyptian idols and so forth.Has anyone seen the movie "From Hell"?It is about Jack the Ripper and Freemasonry all the way back to England.It talks alot about Freemasonry and there occult practices.There are so many symbols of the occult in todays religion and everyday life, it is hard to determine what are not of the occult.They also deal with sun worship and human sacrifice.

[Edited on 14-5-2004 by jhova]

Originally posted by jhova
Freemasonry is definitely dealing with the occult.They worship Isis (the moon goddess, wife of the sun god Osiris).Look up mystery relgions, mythraism and there symbols and idols and see how our own country is filled with masonic and illuminous symnols.It also has the same symbols as some ancient Egyptian idols and so forth.Has anyone seen the movie "From Hell"?It is about Jack the Ripper and Freemasonry all the way back to England.It talks alot about Freemasonry and there occult practices.There are so many symbols of the occult in todays religion and everyday life, it is hard to determine what are not of the occult.They also deal with sun worship and human sacrifice.

[Edited on 14-5-2004 by jhova]

This is simple to answer.

Do I worship Isis? No. I personally believe that Isis was the personification of one facet of God's potentialities (I'm not using the right word here... I mean the powers by which God acts), but this belief is not Masonic. It is merely my own.

Do I worship the sun? No. Again, the sun provides light and life to all creatures on the Earth, and is the Glory of the Lord, but the sun is not God. Sometimes the sun is used as a symbol of certain of God's actions, but it is certainly not worshipped within Masonry.

Do I perform or approve of human sacrifice? No. I do not believe that killing another person is _ever_ justified, and that even killing in self defense is a sin (although a much lesser sin than allowing yourself to be killed). These are my beliefs, mind you, and have no bearing on Freemasonry, which teaches no dogma whatsoever.

Some people may suggest "Ah, but you're a "low ranking" Freemason," (whatever that means) "and you don't know what you're really worshipping." Well, first of all, this is absurd on its face - if you can't tell what you're worshipping, how do you know we're all not worshipping Satan RIGHT NOW?!?! As for the absurd idea that there are "ranks" in Freemasonry designed to keep "lower level" members in the know, I will tell you that I am a 32nd degree SR Mason, and friends with the leader of SR Masonry in Canada, and I have never seen anything in Masonry which conflicts with my Christian faith, or the Muslim, Sikh, or Jewish faith of my friends. I would expand this further, but I do not know that any of my friends are Hindus, Druzes, Zoroastrians, etc. However, inasmuch as there are Hindu and Zoroastrian Masons (I don't know about Druzes... I would love to meet a Brother of that faith), I doubt there is anything in Masonry out of line with their faith either.

Let me ask you something... if Masonry taught all these revolting things you claim it teaches, why would so many of its members be professing religious members? Why would the last set of degrees in the York Rite (the preceptory degrees) require one to be a trinitarian Christian (to agree with the Nicene Creed?)

P.S. You misspelled and miscapitalised "Mithraism" If you're going to libel my order, at least spell correctly, put spaces between your sentences, and try your hand at some paragraph structure.

P.P.S. Sorry to sound frustrated. You did just imply that I supported human sacrifice. I hope you understand and will forgive my irritation.

P.P.P.S. I am having trouble posting this message, so while I wait for the Internet to correct itself, I will note that the fictional movie "From Hell" does not even talk about fictional occult practices of Freemasons. I went to see that movie, and found it quite a laugh, and quite insulting, but never did it claim we did anything occult. Plus, I want you to note, that in that movie, the Freemasons not only did not support the murderer, but even punished him when it became clear that he was the murderer (even though, again, it was fiction)

[Edited on 14-5-2004 by AlexKennedy]

Imhotep and jhova,
I appreciate the time it took you to post on this thread. Are you both Masons? I'm surprised at your answers if you are Masons in good standing.

When I posted this topic, I was hoping to hear from Masons about certain ideas. Namely, what they came to ATS for. And what they, as Masons, thought about conspiracy theory.
I didn't expect folks to say Masons are part of NWO and perform ritual sacrifice. I wasn't looking for anti-Mason sentiment.

Brother jhova (a bit of self indulgent heresy I dare say?) thank for speaking on behalf of the Craft. Your insight and familiarity with the innermost details of our Order is commendable, I have to say the succinct way you outline the symbols, idols(?), and human sacrifices is truly unparalleled. While we abhor your revelations of our secrets, it is always good for the uninitiated, unenlightened to be given a part of light however minute. However, as you have fully embraced the pinnacle of cinematography, "From Hell" you realize that we are now obligated to pursue Masonic charges, and when found guilty, mete out an appropriate sentence as is so aptly demonstrated in the film. While contemplating this, take note of a few other handy symbols: wooden cross (device of torture and execution), derived from the polytheistic/pagan Roman Empire. Outline of a fish, wonder why someone would adorn themselves with the likeness of an animal (pagan)? But as usual I digress... I would like to take this moment to thank Brother AK, for his first response gave me pause, and the opportunity to tone down this reply. I also apologize to AK for misreading his reply and his correction of your misspelling of the word "Mithraism", this is obviously a bit of self indulgence on my part, minus the heresy. As a final word, perhaps the most important symbol for you to consider is the one that has the letters: abc with a checkmark next to it!

Is idol the inner part of lol? Just wondering?

I don't know what that guy is on, but I know for a FACT that mystery religions are the basis for freemason beliefs.Mystery religions deal with sacrifice and sun worship.Mystery religions have placed many of there pagan beliefs in everyday religious practices.The pyramid on the us dollar is definitley a link to egypt, especially with the eye of horus or osirus, the egyptian sun-god.The architect, is who the compass (which is at 33degrees) and the bent ruler is symbolic for.On true masonry cloths, like the ones worn in the eighteen hundreds had sun dials and images of the sun on there sleeves, and paid homage to the light of the east, where naturally the sun rises.Sun gods in most beliefs were the keepers of knowledge or arts or religions.Sometimes there female counterparts, or there wives were worshipped as well.Osirus's counterpart is Isis, the moon goddess.Sometimes, Osirus, or his Greek counterpart Apollo were shown in statues holding the torch of the light of knowledge, just like the statue of liberty (that was designed by a Spanish mason).And the statue of Liberty has a counterpart in France just like it.We know plenty about mystery religions, and masons claim to have almost identical symbols, ideals, idols, and possibly the sick rituals that go on in them.The cultures of meso america and south america also worshipped the sun, the mayans, aztecs, olmecs.They also built pyramids with cult like numerical meanings like our dollar bill, which was designed by a freemason.

Go watch the movie "From Hell". It will give you some insite on mystery religions and freemasonry.Also look up mystery religions, and there connections with the mysteries talked about in freemasonry.Who is the great architect?The mind behind builders of the pyramids?What light or knowledge is being brought into the world?

Originally posted by jhova

[deletia]

Mystery religions deal with sacrifice and sun worship.

Like the Mysteries of Eleusis, which were centred around Demeter's search for Persephone? And in which the only sacrifice was that a pig was roasted in what amounts to an ancient Greek beach barbecue? And which barred no-one (including slaves) except anyone who had killed another human being?

Or perhaps you mean the Mysteries which were conducted in the catacombs of Rome during the first few decades AD, in which so-called "audientes" were exposed to bizarre teaching about the undead, were named with odd title of "catechumen" when they had accepted enough of the doctrine, and then were called "faithful" when they had engaged in a bizzare blood-drinking and flesh-eating ritual? No, wait, that's Christianity!

Mystery religions have placed many of there pagan beliefs in everyday religious practices.

I hate to bring this up - it is irrelevant to your argument, but please make sure to use "there," "their," and "they're" correctly. (Sorry... I am studying to be a teacher, and some habits are hard to break).

I don't understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that Christian religious practices engender idolatry? Or perhaps you are talking about Islam or Judaism, the other two religions usually considered "non-pagan." Muslims would be shocked and dismayed at your assertion that they are idolaters... Islam is the most strictly monotheistic religion on the planet, to the degree that for a long time many Muslims felt that trinitarian Christians were polytheists (trinitarianism is a hard doctrine to come to grips with). Judaism is the original monotheistic desert religion (not necessarily the first monotheistic faith in the world, mind you)... if this taint of paganism has gripped Judaism, then none of us are safe!

But... if you're so concerned about idolatry, why have you chosen such a provocatively quasi-blasphemous name as "jhova?' I assume you did not do it merely to shock or annoy.

The pyramid on the us dollar is definitley a link to egypt, especially with the eye of horus or osirus, the egyptian sun-god.

The object to which you refer on the American dollar is not a pyramid. It is a triangle or delta, signifying the Deity. The eye within signifies that the Deity is omniscient.

The architect, is who the compass (which is at 33degrees) and the bent ruler is symbolic for.

First of all, please capitalise Architect here, because I believe that you must mean the Architect of all Creation, i.e. God. If that is what you mean, then you are partly correct in saying that the compasses are symbolic for Him, but in the same sense that all objects are sybolic of their creator. The compasses do not represent God per se within my lodge, but the mistake is understandable. I assume that by "bent ruler" you mean a square? Please get the name correct, not only for understanding's sake but also out of respect for your "opponents." Again, the square and compasses together do not represent God per se, nor any lesser human architect.

On true masonry cloths, like the ones worn in the eighteen hundreds had sun dials and images of the sun on there sleeves, and paid homage to the light of the east, where naturally the sun rises.

I'm not sure what you meant by "Masonry colths." At first I thought you meant aprons, but then I read the word sleeves. What does the presence of sundials or the sun mean, pray tell? There are cartoons of the sun on many Sunkist (tm) product packages, but I'm sure that even the most upset individual would not claim that it indicates any kind of sun-worship. Let me ask you this, are you advocating a world in which no depictions of the sun will be allowed?

Sun gods in most beliefs were the keepers of knowledge or arts or religions.

I am curious about this. I have not encountered this. Obviously, you are talking about polytheisms, since you speak of "sun gods." Let's take a look.

Greek:
Helios: No, just a god of the sun. Fairly white-bread, didn't do too much interesting.

Babylonian:
Shamash: Apparently he provided laws to humanity, but that doesn't seem to be knowledge of arts and religion.

Egyptian:
Ra, Amun-Ra, and Atum-Ra all appear to be related more to kingship than knowledge. In fact, from a brief search, I find that Ra was considered to be unwilling to interact directly with humanity at all.

I could go on, but I'm short on time.

Sometimes there female counterparts, or there wives were worshipped as well.Osirus's counterpart is Isis, the moon goddess.Sometimes, Osirus, or his Greek counterpart Apollo were shown in statues holding the torch of the light of knowledge, just like the statue of liberty (that was designed by a Spanish mason).

Neither Osiris nor Apollo were sun gods. It is a common misconception that Apollo was a sun god, in fact that place in greek mythology was always held by helios. Apollo was only associated with the sun because of the metaphor that he and his sister Artemis were like the sun and the moon, in their seperate spheres of influence.

I don't know where the idea that Osiris was a sun god comes from. The sun god is clearly Ra.

The statue of liberty was designed by a French sculptor, Fr�d�ric Auguste Bartholdi.

And the statue of Liberty has a counterpart in France just like it.

What counterpart is that?

We know plenty about mystery religions, and masons claim to have almost identical symbols, ideals, idols, and possibly the sick rituals that go on in them.

I make no such claim and know of no Mason who does.

The cultures of meso america and south america also worshipped the sun, the mayans, aztecs, olmecs.

These polytheistic cultures worshipped many aspects of the physical world. To claim they worshipped only the sun is demeaning.

They also built pyramids with cult like numerical meanings like our dollar bill, which was designed by a freemason.

Numerical meanings are cult-like? Are the song "One is the Lonliest Number," (sung by THREE Dog Night!!!) or the sitcom "Three's Company," tools of indoctrination?

Neither of the men who designed the dollar bill were Freemasons. Benjamin Franklin was one, but he did no design work (see link above)

I regret the format that I have used to rebut but it was the only way I could expose and forge a coherent response.

Originally posted by jhova
I don't know what that guy is on Sober, but I know for a FACT Indisputable as demonstrated by the capital letters that mystery religions are the basis for freemason beliefs Links/references please. Mystery religions deal with sacrifice and sun worship Then they aren't a mystery.Mystery religions have placed many of there pagan beliefs in everyday religious practices True, but that is such a general statement that it has no relevance to Masonry or anything else.The pyramid on the us dollar is definitley a link to egypt, especially with the eye of horus or osirus, the egyptian sun-god Got me on that one, the U.S. and Egypt are indistinguishable due to parallel culture, language, religion, and economy.The architect Great Architect, is who the compass (which is at 33degrees) Sixty degrees. and the bent ruler It's a square is symbolic for Actually the Craft designates with a "G".On true masonry cloths Clothes?.,like the ones worn in the eighteen hundreds We are naked now, such savages had sun dials Timepieces? and images of the sun on there sleeves, and paid homage to the light of the east, where naturally the sun rises No homage is ever paid save to ones personal chosen Diety.Sun gods in most beliefs were the keepers of knowledge Unlike here or arts or religions.Sometimes there female counterparts, or there wives were worshipped as well Of course an all male fraternity would.Osirus's counterpart is Isis, the moon goddess.Sometimes, Osirus, or his Greek counterpart Apollo were shown in statues holding the torch of the light of knowledge Better than the darkness of ignorance, just like the statue of liberty (that was designed by a Spanish mason) Relevence escapes me.And the statue of Liberty has a counterpart in France just like it We finally agree, I hate the French too!.We know plenty about mystery religions, and masons claim to have almost identical symbols, ideals, idols, and possibly the sick rituals that go on in them.The cultures of meso america and south america also worshipped the sun, the mayans, aztecs, olmecs All devoutly Masonic cultures.They also built pyramids with cult like numerical meanings like our dollar bill,Ah yes, the denomination of one. which was designed by a freemason.

Who is the "we" constantly referred to? Implying a majority viewpoint does not bolster an argument, nor infer a level of validity.