Phoenix: Dozens of armed citizens attend todays Obama Speech

Originally posted by grover

You are rapidly becoming not worth arguing with.

Why is that? because I am making a very valid argument you have no excuse, or defense against?

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by grover

 

I know exactly what you said.

Do tell us grover...when is a good time to have a legally owned firearm with you? After you were robbed? After you were killed for $20? After your wife, daughter, son is killed?... Hope none of the above ever happens to you.



[edit on 18-8-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

A gun culture increases the overall risk of armed robberies, and usage of weapons such as knives. Same with youths in Britain who carry knives, by carrying the weapon and showing it, you are provoking somebody who may not actually be a killer. Just give them the money etc and walk away. That's the best thing to do, not cowboy law and citizen arrest!

I understand that with everybody potentially having guns at the moment in the US, then you may feel safer carrying one. But if guns were banned, then from what I've said you cannot logically give a good reason to carry one.

Originally posted by john124

A gun culture increases the overall risk of armed robberies, and usage of weapons such as knives. Same with youths in Britain who carry knives, by carrying the weapon and showing it, you are provoking somebody who may not actually be a killer. Just give them the money etc and walk away. That's the best thing to do, not cowboy law and citizen arrest!

Really? is that why since the gun ban in the UK, crimes with handguns have INCREASED dramatically, and even the police in the UK says they can't stop criminals?...

Why is it that every country where guns were banned has seen an increase in crime with guns? Could it be because criminals don't get their guns legally? and when law abiding citizens don't have guns only criminals have guns?...

reply to post by john124


BTW, guess you didn't get to see what was the main reason your Brittish patriots decided to do the largest "PEACEFUL" demonstration in the history of England.

Here it is in case you missed it, and watch it to the end to see what cops have to say and what happens when law abiding citizens now in the UK DARE to try to defend themselves in their own homes...

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by john124

A gun culture increases the overall risk of armed robberies, and usage of weapons such as knives. Same with youths in Britain who carry knives, by carrying the weapon and showing it, you are provoking somebody who may not actually be a killer. Just give them the money etc and walk away. That's the best thing to do, not cowboy law and citizen arrest!

Really? is that why since the gun ban in the UK, crimes with handguns have INCREASED dramatically, and even the police in the UK says they can't stop criminals?...

Why is it that every country where guns were banned has seen an increase in crime with guns? Could it be because criminals don't get their guns legally? and when law abiding citizens don't have guns only criminals have guns?...

I didn't say gun crime is non-existent where guns are banned by law.

Gun crime is much worse in the US than in the UK. There are mass-murder stories almost every other week.

Whether an American is carrying a gun and abiding by law, or isn't, they are still contributing to a gun culture.

There may be individual cases where having a gun for protection is good, but in for most cases a complete ban on guns would reduce overall gun crime significantly. Efforts to reduce illegal selling of weapons has to be undertaken as well.

Don't you see the two levels of problems: if people are armed against the criminals who are the primary problem, whether they own guns legal or illegal, then the other citizens promote a pro-gun culture where some people will be sensible, and others will be idiots. The idiots will leave guns lying around possibly near children where accidents may occur, use them after drinking/drugs, out of anger or psychotic behaviour, and various other inadvertent circumstances or accidents.

I'm afraid that to prevent the idiots from killing people, the law-abiding citizens will have to give up their weapons. If the economy gets worse and there are riots, then giving up your guns now would prevent the idiots from going on killing sprees. It's just a matter of not being selfish. And to assume you could be fighting your govt. with your guns is paranoid and actually that problem may be brought about by carrying the guns in the first place.

And in many cases, just like the kids in London with their knives, that carrying a gun will provoke aggression in thieves or other criminals who carry one. These likely being young adults possibly drugged out or kids. If, instead of handing over your wallet, you pull out a gun, then the thief may panic and attack. It's also possible he/she would run away like a coward though. But it's still best to be safe, rather than take the law into your own hands.

[edit on 18-8-2009 by john124]

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Keep up the hard work. Not sure you will get through to them but at least you are providing factual, thought provoking ideas.

reply to post by john124


gun crime soars in UK

UK is violent crime capital of Europe

violent crime underestimated for 10 years in UK





[edit on 18-8-2009 by hotrodturbo7]

Originally posted by john124.

Gun crime is much worse in the US than in the UK. There are mass-murder stories almost every other week.

Nope, your media doesn't show the crimes as much as the media in the U.S. does...

BTW, the worse crimes in the U.S. happens in states which have BANNED FIREARMS, or have heavy restrictions...

States such as Wyoming crime is almost not existant...

People around here can leave their cars/trucks running and go into a shop to buy something and their cars/trucks won't be robbed...

Try doing that in New York or in most places in California where there are bans and heavy restrictions in firearms and your car/truck won't last 1 minute without some CRIMINAL trying to steal it.. Of course, and try to walk alone through gang land in any mayor cities, or even just to go to the movies, or such...

Originally posted by john124.
Whether an American is carrying a gun and abiding by law, or isn't, they are still contributing to a gun culture.

Nope, they are contributing to something called the BILL OF RIGHTS....which in the Second Amendment it clearly gives all law abiding citizens the RIGHT to own and bear arms, and no amount of excuses by people like you will ever change that.

Originally posted by john124.
There may be individual cases where having a gun for protection is good, but in for most cases a complete ban on guns would reduce overall gun crime significantly. Efforts to reduce illegal selling of weapons has to be undertaken as well.

Obviously you seem to be totally oblivious to the fact that gun crimes in England HAVE INCREASED DRAMATICALLY since the handgun ban....

Do you understand the fact that CRIMINALS do not buy guns legally?...

Originally posted by john124.
I'm afraid that to prevent the idiots from killing people, the law-abiding citizens will have to give up their weapons.

No they don't, your country is a prime example of how wrong your argument is...

Do watch the video I gave about what is happening IN YOUR COUNTRY...

You are either trying to ignore, and dismiss the truth, or you have been living outside of England for a long time..

[edit on 18-8-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

[edited for double post]

[edit on 18-8-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by Anonymous Avatar

No one willing to stand up for their civil liberties is going to show up to a protest drunk much less drunk with a gun... Have you EVER seen someone drunk at a protest?

I would say right now there are tens of millions of VERY angry gun owners right now in the United States and not one has yet to "let off a few rounds to make a point."

I will bet my worthless money if such a thing were to every happen it would be a plant.

Agreed 100% on that one, I'm a Canadian and I thought the protest was extremely civil, if you don't use your rights you lose them is the bottom line. I wish Canada's gun control laws allowed to us carry arms, maybe I'm just paranoid but I think I would feel a lot safer. The constitution was written so if and when a totalitarian or fascist government gets put into place the people can fight back or defend them selves if need be. Some countries governments have a slavery like strangle hold on the people and they don't even realize it... But that's just my opinion.

reply to post by john124


The thing about banning guns in the US is that people have their own opinions on the subject, regardless of what the law says. I don't think many would willingly turn over their guns to the government in the current political climate. I KNOW I sure as hell wouldn't. When the government asks for your gun, that's the time to give it to them- bullets first.

That is why gun control will never work in the US. The government can pass any laws they want, but the people will refuse to hand over their guns willingly. If the government wants the peoples' guns, it's going to have to try to take them by force. Which is impossible. There are too many of us, and we are too heavily armed. They can wheedle away here and there with little restrictions, but the right to bear arms is a huge line in the sand that cannot be crossed.

reply to post by Solar.Absolution


Indeed the Second Amendment was written to protect us from exactly what the government is trying to do.

It is time for the people to send a message and show a little teeth to show we are tired of being bullied and lied to. I applause these people for doing just that.

reply to post by Roadblockx



Thanks, many other members are doing a good job too in protecting our rights, and more so our Second Amendment right.

Even the forefathers of this nation stated the main reason why American citizens should be armed, and it is in case we need to defend ourselves against a tyrannical government.

BTW, I am not advocating violence, i believe violence is the last resort that should be used, but if your life, or the life of a relative or innocent person is at stake and you can save it with your firearm, you have a right to defend yourself, and or defend your family or innocent people.

As some other members stated, if you don't protect your rights the government won't protect them for you, they will try to take them away from you like they have done in England/UK, Australia, Canada etc, etc..

Originally posted by jam321
I wonder how many sniper rifles were being aimed at these armed citizens.

for exercising their rights.

At that guy with the assault rifle, probably atleast 3-4 snipers had their target right on his head the ENTIRE time and he probably had no clue.....


Imagine how fearful and worried you would be knowing you have sniper targets on your head and if even one of them F up then you are gone before you even know you are gone.....


Glad to see people exercising their rights to carry weapons and still being smart enough not to use them........

Its their right of course to stand in public armed to the teeth.

Its also the right of the government to have 3 snipers with a headshot targetted on each one of them (lets hope all the snipers are level headed and not overreactionary).

Express your freedom, but once you pull the gun, its all over except the call to the coroner.

Also, should a conservative republican get into office, I do hope you wont mind the same types of demonstrations being held with armed unstable left wingers...all about our rights verses demonstrating social acceptability.

American Patriotism,
brought to you today by National Health Insurance Corporation.

Originally posted by LucidDreamer85
At that guy with the assault rifle, probably atleast 3-4 snipers had their target right on his head the ENTIRE time and he probably had no clue...

I wouldn't be surprised that he didn't have a clue, doesn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer...

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Its their right of course to stand in public armed to the teeth.

Its also the right of the government to have 3 snipers with a headshot targetted on each one of them (lets hope all the snipers are level headed and not overreactionary).

Express your freedom, but once you pull the gun, its all over except the call to the coroner.

Also, should a conservative republican get into office, I do hope you wont mind the same types of demonstrations being held with armed unstable left wingers...all about our rights verses demonstrating social acceptability.

American Patriotism,
brought to you today by National Health Insurance Corporation.

Should anyone who sites in the Presidential Office and violates the people and the constitution this I would hope armed citizens shows up at their protests as well regardless of their skin color or what political party they affiliate themselves with.

Those things are irrelevant.

Originally posted by whaaa
As long as gun owners like myself act responsibly and act within the law; I can see it as a proper demonstration as per the constitution.

But what will be the result when some drunk, medicated or very angry gun owner decides to let off a few rounds just to make a point? Eventually we all know this will happen. What then? How will the cops react? The secret service?

the reaction? I think you'll see the rest of the people there with guns on the guy telling him to lay his weapon on the deck faster than the cops and secret service would be able to. If he even made it into the rally.

Recalculating....



[edit on 18-8-2009 by Roadblockx]

what amazes me the most in this entire thread is the voracity people will argue to protect their rights to own and carry a handgun and yet there was very little in the way of opposition to the utter destruction of the bill of rights by the Patriot Act. Take away all my rights, but you will never take away my gun.

simply shock and awe...