Get a clue America

Originally posted by Wimbly
Trust me, we're just as bored of having Canadians and other people who aren't American, telling us what will work and what we want.

If you are screwed anyhow, a piece of advice won't do you much harm. If you are out of shape and somebody tells you it might be a good idea to lay off fries and go to the gym instead, it's your right to ignore them and make fun of them, and it's completely in your purvue to contract diabetes and lose vision. Kudos to you pride.

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reply to post by ZombieOctopus


I'm pleased that you're angry. First time I have ever seen a Canadian display any emotion in any forum other than at a hockey game.

Why you feel the need to rail against the US is beyond me. I can tell you that those of us south of the border don't give a rip about anything that goes on north of it. Perhaps the only difference being the production of Molson (oh, I forgot - they are owned by an American firm now).

America is a country established on a Federalist model, not a central government. We are a Republic. We want to care for ourselves with minimal interference from the State. We have states that have profoundly different cultures and choose to live in them for that reason (one of the reasons that there has been a net outflow from California, other than illegals for the past 10 years).

The countrys that you site as shining examples of progress are in many cases basket cases. England is broke. France has double digit unemployment and has had it for years. As far as Canada goes, you strike me as a typical Canadian who is tired of being the little brother of the US.

Mind your own affairs and keep out of our business.

By the way, if your health care system is so fantastic, why is the death rate for prostate cancer 30x higher in Canada than in the US? Why do Canadians cross the border to get sophisticated treatments and some routine treatments like dialysis?

Give us a break and like a pior post suggested get off your high horse. Perhaps you can go to one of those Canadian bookstores where what is it, 30 percent of books are mandated to be written by Canadian authors. Or you could listen to Canadian radio, where they have a massive book of words that can't be spoken on the radio for fear that they might offend someone.

Mind your own business and go have a milk toast lunch

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As far as Americans being ignorant to the ways of the wider world outside of our borders, I couldn't agree with Zombieoctopus more.

It's a fact that other western countries spend less on healthcare and get better results through government-run insurance. That means they're more efficient.

Considering that America has not only the largest prison population in the world, but also the highest rate of people in prison, it's safe to say that a lot of those 'socialist', 'fascist', and 'tyrannical' countries also enjoy a higher level of personal freedom.

The argument that a public option for healthcare is part of a grand scheme to enslave the US population is bogus.

Why weren't these town-hall protesters outraged when the PATRIOT act was enacted? Or when Bush illegally invaded Iraq? Or when his administration claimed that we are either with them or we're with the terrorists?

It's because they're as partisan as the liberals they love to rail against for marching in lockstep with the Democrats. They take their orders from the Republican party and the wingnut conservative media.

reply to post by milesp


Miles.. as a reasonable sounding American, could you tell me, are people genuinely talking about all this as some socialist nightmare?

You probably know well enough that i don't need to tell you this but we find that quite astonishing!

reply to post by phoenix103


There's a lot of people who see it as that. You can see it all over ATS in particular. The town hall meetings that members of congress are having are full of people who think that's what happening. The freaking militia movement is making a comeback.

I live in one of the most liberal cities in the midwest and just the other day I saw a guy wearing a hat that simply said 'Obama' with a hammer and sickle on it. I asked him if he thought Obama was a communist and he said yes.

I think it's a minority of people who are buying that crap, but that's only because the VAST majority of people in this country are apolitical.

Conservatives have seemed to have the edge on Liberals in this country for some time now. Once a decade or so, the people get pissed off enough at one party or another to vote out incumbents, but the prevailing philosophy of both parties is pretty conservative compared to the rest of the world.

reply to post by phoenix103

Sir, if you must take that approach then understand mine -

We were kind enough to provide your nation with a beautiful language. Please use it correctly.

The word you are looking for is "bored".

You could at least get the insult correct, if you're going to try and divert a point with insults. How is my spelling of "bored" any different than yours? Look at what you quoted? Its the exact same spelling. Who in the world gave you a star for that?

Originally posted by eradown
I think it is funny you know who our president is. You really should not. Regardless of whither you love Obama or hate him, he won't help you at all. We in America prefer to mind our own bussiness or maybe we really are too big to ignore.

Hilarious! I just couldn't resist responding on this particular comment.

Octo, the OP, I'd like to say, you're not wrong, but you're beating your head against an ever expanding brick wall.

reply to post by dolphinfan


i don't think zombie octo is anti-american, he/she seems to be anti-stupidity.
Any correlation you make is your own.

Hey Ace... still "Biting your lip?"

Read it and weep: Candian Healthcare system 'Imploding'

See, you can rail all you want against us "Stupid" and "Ignorant" Americans who are against Socialism - but we SEE the truth that you dumb Socialists refuse to see - THE SYSTEM DOESN'T WORK! In fact, NEVER before in human histry has socialism ever suceeded - EVER! You cannot keep robbing from the few to provide for the many. Eventually the few wealthy become as poor as the many and the system collapses. It has happened over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again - and it is happening right now!!!

So please, with all due respect, mind your contry's business and not America's. We will take care of ourselves and make dmaned sure that socialism doesn't infect us - at least as best we can! Here's some more good reading for you from us "Stupid" and "Ignorant" Americans..

Overhauling Healthcare System Top Priority for Candian Doctors
Top 10 Ways the UK Rations Healthcare
Waiting lists - or waiting to die
French Healthcare Should Copy US!
France Has Good Healthcare at HIGH Cost!
Universal Healthcare Won't Work - Witness Medicare
TennCare already implementing cuts in service!
Over 200,000 Dropped from Tenncare plan!

Ok, I hope you get the point - I could on and on for pages! Sure, I know our healthcare system is far from perfect - but so is every socialist program out there. I do not want to replace an ok system with another ok system, or one that is worse. The government can't even administer a freaking "Cash for clunkers" program! Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security are going broke! And the very legislative body that is desperately trying to ram this crap down our throats have already exempted themselves from it - because it sucks!

Originally posted by rich23
One of my best friends was treated for leukaemia a while ago. He nearly died but he's been in remission for three years now and is doing well. Never had to pay a penny. I'm glad my National Insurance contributions go to help people: I think it's a mark of a civilised society.

bold emphasis mine

As would I, just as long as it was accomplished in as across the board (equal) manner you allude to.

Unfortunately, and as previously mentioned, I just don't "see" that type "program" coming to be as the end result of the current proposals, discussions, debates or offered propositions on the proverbial table ... too Many vested interest(s) - well funded groups looking to "get" a piece of the pie. (?)

Me?
How 'bout a "Plan" directly and proportionately tied to that of "Congressional cost-of-living Raises" ... voted on Year after Year. (?)

Surely THAT can be accomplished.




 

[edit on 17-8-2009 by 12m8keall2c]

I am torn on this.

By no means is the NHS here in the UK perfect, but it's there and is available to all.

Here's what I think has gone wrong in America...

Obama says he had a radical plan to overhaul the healthcare system. He'd been saying it throughout the campaign hadn't he?
So it seems that the majority were at least happy about the basic principal, the discussion, otherwise he wouldn't have won.

Now, he's started this without any clear and adequate plan in place. He's proposed something that no one in a position of responsibility has read. He hasn't consulted the people on his proposals, and then he's eventually asked them for their opinion without offering the correct information for digestion. It was reactive rather than proactive.

What did he think would be the response?!

As a result of this, the Republican voter has seized on this as a battle. The ones who voted him in are a little confused and not really appreciative of the methods he's used in expressing the idea or disseminating the information. Therefore the majority going to these meetings are going to be either a little peeved, or extremely angry (depending on your political slant to begin with).

It doesn't bother me if people insult the NHS. I'm not American and they're not British. They can have their opinion and I'm not patriotic enough to give a damn.
Just as we ridicule America for the Bush years (remember that the vast majority of the planet sat back and laughed at the American people for voting him in a second time! If you believe that they did, that is)

OP; either way, it is a minority actually vocally insulting other nations. They're the kinds of people who usually only know a country exists because their young men and women are being killed there in battle.
Many of them are just itching for a fight because it's not their man as the face of the nation.
And, yes, also some are there fighting and screaming about it because he is Black (I'm not going to shy away from the FACT here, racism exists).
But the vast majority are there simply because this has been handled extremely badly, and with immensely bad timing.

Please don't blame the majority for the actions and opinions of a select few.

Originally posted by VinceP1974

Thanks for the answer. Your implication was that the lobbying was resulting in the public reaction against the plan.

I was looking for figures that stated how much money was going into that effort. Because I assert public opposition has nothing to do with any group whatsoever. It's a genuine opposition on principle.

The real, meaningful opposition to this is the opposition from the people. That is what will kill it.

I don't think that the lobbyist are busing in fake protesters, or paying people to raise concerns at the town-halls, and such was certainly not my intent, impliedly or no. But I can see where you might get that idea, so I'm glad we could clear that up.

That said however, I do believe that while the protesters' opposition is genuine and in most cases truly based on principle, I also am afraid that it is based, in many instances, on false premises which have been promoted by the insurance lobby and their wholly owned representatives.

I am of course referring to the cries of the vast majority of the protesters claiming that "their Country" has been hijacked by socialists and Nazis. I will grant you that these are real citizens whose concern is real, but that concern is nonetheless based on a falsehood, i.e. that the United States has been "overrun" by Socialists etc.

I would submit that Senator Joe McCarthy genuinely was concerned with the promulgation of Communist principles spreading throughout America, but was gravely mistaken about not only the extent of such spread, but moreover, about who was responsible and involved in such Communist activities. This "red scare" lead to one of the darkest times in modern American politics and destroyed more than a few good Americans in the process.

Now, before this goes any further, I'm not comparing the protesters to Sen. McCarthy, but only pointing out that carrying around pictures of President of The United States of America in an SS uniform and sporting a Hitler mustache is a slippery slope none of us should be foolish enough to slide down. I was no fan of GWB and even felt betrayed after having been a supporter in 2000, but I still did not think it was ok to characterize him as a Nazi, and I won't accept that it is OK to do so now to the current administration.

I agree real "meaningful" opposition will kill the proposed reform, but what is "meaningful" In other words, calling the plan that would ensure that insurance companies had to pay doctors/nurses for their time spent in counseling patients on end of life care options (such as living wills) - "death panels," was a way to stir the emotions of real Americans. And those real Americans showed up at meetings to protest, but that does not mean that the premise which they were protesting was based on reality, and, in fact, they were the unwitting tools of the insurance lobby that had started such insane rumors to begin with.

As evidence of this I submit the following: a woman named Betsy McCaughey is most often named as the first person to start the rumors about death panels. She is also on the board of directors of the Cantel Medical Corporation. This is a multimillion dollar medical corporation which went from trading around $3 in 2000, to over $30 in 2005, under the Bush administration. It would appear to me then, that people like this woman have a vested self interest in seeing heath reform of any sort fail.

If you follow the money the lobby is spending, and the bloggers who spread the lies concerning the actually proposal, it becomes apparent: the people protesting are genuinely angry, but they are genuinely mistaken about who it is that has been lying to them.

If the debate were about small business and middle class being unfairly burdened I would be all for it, but as long as it is based on name calling and banner waving by people unfortunately too blind to see that they are being used, it will only serve to divide the people.

Another thread where someone is angry at the use of the word "socialist". Methinks it has something to do with Mr. Obama giving socialism a bad name.

If running banks, auto companies, and so to be health care is not socialism, can someone explain to me what is?

Looks like the silent majority is not willing to be silent anymore, and certain people don't like it one bit.

Originally posted by Wimbly
Trust me, we're just as bored of having Canadians and other people who aren't American, telling us what will work and what we want. In fact, I'd say the ribbing your NHC is taking from us, is a direct result of people not minding their own business.

I couldn't care less about how dumb the American health care system is, but when people start talking ignorant trash about our health care system, they'd better be ready for a reality check.

Currently, the US spends twice as much (16% GDP as opposed to 8% GDP) on its health care as the UK, but as other posters have remarked, providers do as much as they can to exclude people from treatment.

And I just love the way every time I raise the point about how the people who complain about their taxes being used to help people never kick up about their taxes being used to kill people... it gets ignored.

[edit on 17-8-2009 by rich23]

Originally posted by ZombieOctopus
I am in support, however, of Obama's push for socialized health care in America. [edit on 8/17/2009 by ZombieOctopus]

Stop whining.
You aren't here. You arent one of the ones who have been targeted by premium taxation specifically so that the wealthy can pay less. You arent saddled with something as monstrously insane as being a taxpayer for a government that thinks it has to "run the world" and that most of the rest of the world expects so damn much out of.

Social medical care, like all other government programs here in the states will not make medical care any less expensive. It will make it more expensive and less effective. As far as not having care, that for the most part is a lie. Anyone on government help has medical care of some form or another. Many are qualified but have not used it. The law requires REQUIRES that any illegal immigrant that walks into a hospital be treated, but guess what? I pay 600 a month in premiums and my deductible is a thousand dollars up front. My deductible will go up under the new plan and with targeted premium taxes I will pay another 1800-2000 a year so others can have healthcare that they don't pay for.

Most of the folks who are hurting are the ones who run that income line between welfare and middle class. They are the ones who are hurting and going without because they actually pay for their healthcare and their premiums are the ones that are specifically being targeted for more taxation.

Meanwhile the wealthy and the government handout recipients either don't pay it or don't need it.

I think it's fantastic that you live in a country where your government is reasonable and responsible enough to administer an effective health care system. The united states government, with its present power structure is not only incapable of administering a health care system that is reasonable and effective, it has no intention of doing so in the first place.

Study the legislation and stop buying into the hype.

We have the right to fight for a government that will do beneficial works for the citizens. This bill is not beneficial for the citizens it is a disaster for the citizens.

You can cry crocodile tears and scream in self righteous outrage but until you pay my bills and do my job and pay for my healthcare, just go back to your responsibly run government and be happy you have it.

We're still fighting to get one over here.

[edit on 023131p://f45Monday by badgerprints]

reply to post by phoenix103


Laughable how exactly? It's easy to throw a personal attack amnd straw man the argument. How about pointing out where I'm wrong exactly instead of falling back on the tried and true method of attacking those who disagree with you personally instead of using logic to argue a point?

reply to post by phoenix103


Wow. what a way to throw your weight around without adding absolutely nothing of worth to the discussion.

It's such a treat to read the posts of someone who's not only a bully, but a know-it-all.

I'm amazed you're not a politician, or on board with team Obama.