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Heaven/Hell

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posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 01:38 AM
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Originally posted by jd140
reply to post by chiron613
 


You are right. What kind of God would torment us with eternal fire?

Read my first post and google what Pope John Paul II had to say on the subject.


What got me with the judeo god, was why would he create a large amount of people, then seemingly hide. And whether you believe he exists means eternity in heaven and if you don't you will burn for all of eternity never ending.

Seems kind of random and a bit like a Michael Vick stance. Get a bunch of animals then just torture them.

Well why get them in the first place then just test them and ultimately send quite a large if not majority to hell to burn forever. Seems all to fishy.]




posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 01:58 AM
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reply to post by Republican08
 


I don't know really. When talking about it I always say Heaven and Hell because that gets everyone on the same page, but I know of many interpretations.

The most common is the Catholic intrepertation where your soul goes to a perfect Heaven to spend forever with God or literally a lake of fire where you burn forever, but are never consumed.

The one I really think the Bible talks about is the new earth theory. When you're dead you're just dead and in the ground regardless if you believed in Jesus or not. Also, in this theory you don't actually have a soul. You're just a body that's dead.

After the destruction of the world God will raise up all the dead that believed in him. A very few elect of those people will be raised up into Heaven to spend forever with God. Most people won't be perfect enough for that though, but those that believed in Jesus will be allowed to live forever on a new earth or some kind of new physical reality. Perhaps even this very same planet just with all the wicked and Satan gone from it.

In this theory Satan will no longer rule the earth. God will and his presence will be felt and being in God's presence will be what stops death and decay. God's energy will constantly renew all and stop the effects of entropy basically. Basically God is the tree of life.

The people that go to Hell won't actually go to Hell. They just won't be raised from the dead. However, after the events of the end there may be dead bodies all over at some point. Those that did not believe in Jesus and therefore won't be resurrected.

Those bodies will be thrown into a literal fire along with the Beast. There will be so many bodies that to describe it I believed that's why Jesus said the smoke would rise from the ashes forever and forever. He was just trying to describe how bad the destruction of the wicked will be. This would be an analogy of what they used to do with criminals and he knew those he was preaching to would get the reference even if we don't.


Another theory is you create your own reality wherever you go, but the spirit and the mind are two separate things. In this theory there is a soul, but it only has vague imprints of your memories or none at all. That the soul has no conscious and only emotions. The world it creates around itself is based on the emotions the soul feels. If you leave the world feeling guilty, ashamed, angry or whatever you form your own personal Hell around you.

Perhaps Jesus knew that some people can't forgive themselves, but if they thought that he was the son of God and that he had forgiven them they could live a life of joy so when they died they would carry that emotion off into eternity instead of the emotions of guilt or shame.


I don't necessarily think you carry your memories off into the afterlife. Because I don't think it's that important because since the after life is forever you would quickly forget all about this world anyway. After all, 100 years seems like a lot to us, but compared to eternity it isn't nothing and I can't even remember where I left my phone most of the time. After a million years or so you would have most likely forgotten any memories you had anyway. With all the thoughts of regret one can have it might be best if your memories didn't go with you. So perhaps just your energy goes on or back to the source.

So, I think you're either physically resurrected as a clean slate with only a vague memory of this world or you're a soul that's mostly an emotional being with no real memories and no real need for memories.

So it may just be your energy that carries on. Your actual consciousness may not be all that important.

One last theory is that THIS right here is supposed to be Heaven. Or more accurately the "Kingdom of God". You see, when Jesus was preaching he would preach about the Kingdom of God and it would come after he returned. He actually said he would return before all the people he was preaching to died.

And he did three days later supposedly. What this theory says is that when Jesus died, at that very instance, the old Heaven and Earth passed away and was replaced by a new Heaven and Earth. The new religion of Christianity. What some people believe he was saying is that God is inside of us, and what we're supposed to be doing is living like Christ to create the new Kingdom of God right here on earth.


And there's a million more.


[edit on 17-8-2009 by tinfoilman]



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 01:59 AM
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reply to post by Republican08
 


Hows it going.

Think about all of this a second here.

In the bible even, there is no mention of man asking god for an explanation of anything. They go straight to the knowledge instead of asking god. It doesnt ever say anything about god telling adam and eve to get lost if they want any answers, adam and eve dont think about that.

I do not know what hell is, I have never been there but at times in my life I have asked many questions and it led me to god. I always get my answers and I prefer that and sometimes I have to wait. (you know some of them)

Life is a path of knowledge that everyone chose, wisdom comes from experience, in the end hell to me is an absence of god, we are already in a world that is without god and look around at it. We cannot function without god, after life what makes anyone think they can function without god? What is god? hint hint, just my opinion about being at one with god if that makes sense.

I thought I had a dream about heaven once, I was in my home that was now a tall standing 3 storey castle, it was a lovely sunny morning, I had no worries about anything, outside everything was more vivid than this reality. Lot of people I knew were outside, it was more than that as there was a sense that someone was watching you in a way that kept butterflies in your stomach way more than a crush for example.
To cut a long story short, this was actually a wake up call to change my house, as in myself.

I have the things in my dream now and in 5 minutes I leave for the job that I prayed to get after 12 months of being out of work as well. Sometimes you need to swallow your pride and ask.

This is that morning and boy it feels good to know that I have someone I trust guiding me along the way.



[edit on 17-8-2009 by XXXN3O]



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 02:01 AM
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Could it possibly be that we are all living in hell now? Where the "soul" must go through pain and suffering in countless lives to learn from its mistakes and become more enlightened?
upon which we return to light, and become everything and nothing. or as some call it, "heaven".



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 02:02 AM
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reply to post by Republican08
 


I wanted to add one more thing. The misconception that God would torture people forever in Hell. Most people believe it's not God doing that. It's Satan doing the torturing. Others believe that God throws the sinners in there to be tortured with Satan and he gets tortured too.

However, I believe if there really is a place called Hell well there's no actual torturing going on. It's just the natural conclusion of what happens when you put all the bad people in the same place.

I mean you could take a perfect utopia and put all the bad people there, but just like a prison riot, if there's no good people around anywhere eventually the utopia won't be a utopia very long.

It'll just naturally degrade into Hell because that's the only place evil can exist in because if it doesn't it will simply destroy the place until it is like that.

[edit on 17-8-2009 by tinfoilman]



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 02:56 AM
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reply to post by tinfoilman
 


Wasn't hell like a mistranslation from bibles, that it was actually some sort of garbage grounds... or a place where they laid dead bodies (similar to a cemetery).



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 03:01 AM
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reply to post by Republican08
 


Yes that's what I was talking about. I don't know if it was garbage or bodies or both, but something that was on fire I'm pretty sure and with garbage burning you can only imagine.

I think the story of Hell may have been using that pit as an analogy to those that don't live their life correctly. You become garbage and so don't be surprised if society just throws you out. Also, don't be surprised if God does the same.

Well that's what some people think anyway.

EDIT:
Or if it was a cemetery Jesus may have been alluding to that's your fate if you don't believe in me and you sin. You don't get resurrected and that'll be your Hell for eternity.


[edit on 17-8-2009 by tinfoilman]



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 03:28 AM
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Originally posted by Republican08
Now for like a week now, i've had tons of dreams where I go to hell. There probably the most terrifying dreams, i've ever had.

I'm sorry... but am I the only one who finds this absolutely hilarious? In an ironic sort of way...


The way I see it though, we choose whether to make our life heaven or hell... it can be a wonderful adventure or it can be a pit of self-torment. You can experience life, accept lessons learned, and move on, or you can torture yourself dwelling on things you have no power over. I do a little of both... I like to call it balance. Hey, no one's perfect. Whatever I may think now will not matter when I die, regardless what actually happens after death, if anything.

It sounds like maybe someone "put the fear of God in ya" to the point that you are subconsciously afraid of hell (perhaps whatever concept of hell you had as a child?) now that you are an atheist... that's just my amateur dream interpretation for ya.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 03:43 AM
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Sinners suffer the judgement of eternal fire, the Bible gives us an example of what that judgement is like.
"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." Jude 1:7
Do Sodom and Gomorrah exist today?
No, they suffered the eternal fire judgement.

Would it make any sense for a loving God to torture people for eternity?
No, nor does he. The choice is eternal life or eternal death.


www.accuracyingenesis.com...

[edit on 17-8-2009 by peaceonearth]



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 08:00 AM
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Perhaps the best story about hell in the bible is probably the one about the rich man and Lazarus. The Catholics I'm pretty sure take the story literally, at least the ones I've talked to. I think Abraham's bosom is where purgatory comes from but I've never been Catholic so don't quote me on that. The interesting thing about this story is in hell the rich man has a tongue, is thirsty, and can speak to Abraham from hell afar off. But there is a gulf fixed and they can't pass between.

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luke 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Another interesting thing that you asked about, hell actually is not eternal. In the book of Revelation hell gives up her dead on judgment day.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The lake of fire is actually the final death. But you can have your name removed from the book of life.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 08:31 AM
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Originally posted by nutorius
Could it possibly be that we are all living in hell now? Where the "soul" must go through pain and suffering in countless lives to learn from its mistakes and become more enlightened?
upon which we return to light, and become everything and nothing. or as some call it, "heaven".


Autowrench:
This has been my own take, many times I have though, and stated this...we are in Hell. Realistic thinking though, both Heaven and Hell can be found here on Earth, depending on one's finances and place in the world, and state of happiness or unhappiness.

Personally I could never imagine either concept that the church rams down one's throat at every opportunity...I was raised in a Holy Roller type church and this was a daily message. It is a scare tactic, and scaremongering, and mind control. My brother, who is a Christian minister, told me of the teachings in Theology College that taught him how to mesmerise and control a congregation using his voice and hands. If you go to one of these churches on a Sunday morning where they preach fire and brimstone, and carefully watch the preacher as he talks, you will see this first hand. Be careful though, they have a nasty habit of embarrassing one into giving up their heart and soul to a made up deity while they pray over you. I have often thought, with my knowledge of the Bible and religion, I could make a great deal of money as a preacher.....bad Karma though, to lead a bunch of ignorant people down a path they cannot escape from. Tempting, though!



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 08:31 AM
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I don't believe in Hell because to me, it presents a paradox:

A mother enters Heaven. Her only son was murdered in a gang fight in revenge for his murder of another gang members' entire family.

The mother asks God, "where is my son?"

God says, "Your son was an evil person. He is not here, but it's okay, because you're in heaven."

The mother says, "No I'm not. I still love my son, despite the horrible things he did in his life. This is not heaven without him."

Heaven can not exist if Hell exists as well.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by peaceonearth

Do Sodom and Gomorrah exist today?
No, they suffered the eternal fire judgement.


Autowrench:
I believe these cities, which have been found, by the way, were destroyed by the "Great Weapons of Terror" made by the Annunnaki and unleashed in one of their wars, the very war that accidentally destroyed Sumeria. If the God of the bible does this kind of thing, then why hasn't he destroyed other cities? Read beyond the bible, friend, and open your mind to other possibilities. Read the story again, and replace the word, "Lord" with "Alien" and you will have it. Just my take.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 10:06 AM
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I cannot imagine how painful it must be to burn for eternity... burning hurts!

When I was young someone told me that hell is a massive decaying body

(stinky) and that demons try to grab you from the walls that they are stuck in.

The person told me that hell has fire pits and that demons throw you in there

and thats where you burn. I had a dream where I went to heaven, it was super

real and I spoke to an angel. I asked whether I was dreaming... the angel said

"No" and laughed and then I woke up.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 11:27 AM
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As an atheist...

Heaven and Hell are as you perceive them. It's your life.

You can choose to make your life heaven, hell, or somewhere in-between.

There is no 'after-life'. There's nothing to consider 'beyond'.

You make your life what it is. If life is good then you're in heaven, if bad then you're in hell, otherwise you're in turmoil.

The end.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 04:10 PM
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Originally posted by eMachine

Originally posted by Republican08
Now for like a week now, i've had tons of dreams where I go to hell. There probably the most terrifying dreams, i've ever had.



It sounds like maybe someone "put the fear of God in ya" to the point that you are subconsciously afraid of hell (perhaps whatever concept of hell you had as a child?) now that you are an atheist... that's just my amateur dream interpretation for ya.


Yep.... Partly why i'm against childhood indoctrination.

Especially from the starting church of mine. It was all talk about fire and hell. Now my adult brain is struggling to put away these images.

But i'll tell you the dreams are creepy as all hell. Literally.

My latest one. There were a million of these 4ft by 4 ft cubicles, all metal, stack width and length.

Each contained one smushed person in it, fully conscious in their body. And they would sit there for 4 minutes, and then the fire would begin in the small cubicle, and you can hear their screams. Then after there all burned up, they poof right back with full knowledge of what was going to happen again, and you can hear their screams of anticipatory despair of what pain their about to go through. And their all alone, noone else there in their smushed cage.

And that's lightly putting the feeling of that dream. Shook me up all day.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by Republican08

Originally posted by eMachine

Originally posted by Republican08
Now for like a week now, i've had tons of dreams where I go to hell. There probably the most terrifying dreams, i've ever had.



It sounds like maybe someone "put the fear of God in ya" to the point that you are subconsciously afraid of hell (perhaps whatever concept of hell you had as a child?) now that you are an atheist... that's just my amateur dream interpretation for ya.


Yep.... Partly why i'm against childhood indoctrination.

Especially from the starting church of mine. It was all talk about fire and hell. Now my adult brain is struggling to put away these images.

But i'll tell you the dreams are creepy as all hell. Literally.

My latest one. There were a million of these 4ft by 4 ft cubicles, all metal, stack width and length.

Each contained one smushed person in it, fully conscious in their body. And they would sit there for 4 minutes, and then the fire would begin in the small cubicle, and you can hear their screams. Then after there all burned up, they poof right back with full knowledge of what was going to happen again, and you can hear their screams of anticipatory despair of what pain their about to go through. And their all alone, noone else there in their smushed cage.

And that's lightly putting the feeling of that dream. Shook me up all day.


I do have to say to you, many children do not know anything about well...anything really.

If nobody taught anything we would not know anything. Is this not the reason many come to a site like this, to learn?

If anything, teaching kids about religion makes them question things. Your proof of that as am I.

Many come back to belief after experience in life and that is why they call it truth yet others do not understand. You can choose what to believe or not, thats the whole point.

Hope that makes sense.

I know what your dreams are my friend and deep down so do you.



[edit on 17-8-2009 by XXXN3O]



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 04:22 PM
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Originally posted by LordBucket


jd140
It only makes sense that if you are in heaven and feel love and
joy then if you are in hell you feel anguish and pain.


To me this sort of assumption seems a gross simplification. Consider the human condition even here on earth. There are people who enjoy scary movies. And roller coasters. And Hamlet. These are not things that evoke feelings of "joy" or "happy," but it's still possible to appreciate them. Is shakespearian tragedy forbidden in heaven?

I can only assume that once no longer confined to a physical body and given eternity to work with...the human capacity for "appreciating" states other than "joy and happy" would grow. If one is only permitted to experience these two narrow states emotions in heaven...then heaven seems a terribly small minded and limiting place.

Right now there are people jumping out of airplanes for the thrill it gives them. Diving with sharks. Watching soap operas. If even within the limited span of single human lifetime, people are able to appreciate the emotions conjured up by these sorts of activities...how could an eternity of only "joy and happy" possibly qualify as "heaven?"

If you are truly a spirit with all of eternity to work with...is it possible you might want to experience things like misery, pain and death...experience being ripped to pieces, eaten alive, raped, murdered, incinerated, etc., for the "variety," for the "thrill," just like some people here on earth can enjoy the variety of emotions they do?



It is one thing to expierance a thrill and another thing having to live without joy or love for eternity. Thrill seekers love their family members or having a good light hearted laugh at a joke.

If hell is real then, as I said I believe, it is void of anything good.

Even the most hateful human beings have loved someone or something. Hitler for example loved his wife. Manson loved his "children". Nobody is completely void of love or joy.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 04:24 PM
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im not really a believer in the traditional religious views of heaven, hell, and god.

In my view, this is how I saw god, and hell/heaven

god is the molecules that makes up every living plant and person in the universe. "god" is in all of us, and if we could all come together i believe we would find "heaven" here on earth. With all of us as bits of god always in turmoil and fighting, we are living in our own personal hell, until we can figure out how to change things and come together as human beings and realize we are all here for the same things and there is no reason we should be so divided

Thats my view of it. I think heaven and hell are here, on this earth, and we experience moments of heaven and hell. We all experience moments of pure bliss and joy and love, and we all experience pain, heartache, and sadness.

I think all the answers to all of our questions are surrounding us, we just have to look a little harder to figure it out



[edit on 17-8-2009 by calihan_12]



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by Republican08

Originally posted by jd140
reply to post by chiron613
 


You are right. What kind of God would torment us with eternal fire?

Read my first post and google what Pope John Paul II had to say on the subject.


What got me with the judeo god, was why would he create a large amount of people, then seemingly hide. And whether you believe he exists means eternity in heaven and if you don't you will burn for all of eternity never ending.

Seems kind of random and a bit like a Michael Vick stance. Get a bunch of animals then just torture them.

Well why get them in the first place then just test them and ultimately send quite a large if not majority to hell to burn forever. Seems all to fishy.]


Again you are talking to a person who believes if hell is real then it is not a place of fire.

I have already explained my stance, if you want to question that route then I will do the best I can to answer. If you want to talk about a burning lake of fire, then I can't help you there.



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