There was no lack of blood....the thing is that most people are used to bloody films where you see blood spraying from corpses.....i hate being technical...in something as horrific as this. But first of all Berg was sitting down....he had been calm for sometime and was not doing a lot of movements, because of this his body did not spray any blood, i did see a pool of his blood under him as they were beheading him. I don't think that there was any missing information on the video, but I could be wrong, but at the moment that film was being done a man was killed and it was Berg.

[Edited on 12-5-2004 by Muaddib]

To those who say the photos issued by the family look completely different from the man in the video, I ask that they compare the two side by side. The lack of any facial hair in one, and abundance of it in the other certainly make im look different, but it is the same person.

Essentially, we have four choices to pick about the Nick Berg issue:

(1) Option 1: The Video is Real and the Circumstances are as they appear
(2) Option 2: The Video is Real and the Circumstances are not as they appear
(3) Option 3: The Video is False and the Circumstances are as they appear
(4) Option 4: The Video is False and the Circumstances are not as they appear

Using logic that a 5 year old can master, we obviously come down to options 1 and 2. Those of you who don't see how we come to this narrowing process ask yourselves one question: what is easier? Really cutting off a persons head or faking the process? Now, moving on a bit:

(1) If Nick Berg were captured, and he were to be beheaded, this can easily be accomplished without help from the CIA or other shadow organizations. It's just simply daily practice for Muslim countries. Many limbs (hands/feet) are severed and the practice goes back thousands of years. It's an art form, and it's really quite efficient for them to do this. Heads -- albeit a bit different -- fall into the 'let's sever a body part' category and truly can be done quickly as well.

I personally think the video is real. I'll briefly debunk the debunkers who previously posted things like:


-> There is a woman screaming.
-> Human beings in a fight-or-flight mentality do not talk. They do not sing. They -- believe or not -- shreik like damned banshees. Watch any video on ogrish.com or anything from faces of death. Even the most big and burly men sound like little girls in the midst of a harsh treatment. What -- did you expect Nick Berg to sound like Barry White whilst his topmost parts were shorn clean off? Nope. It's him alright. Shreiking.


-> There are multiple [pick one] cameras, angles, cuts, videos, patches, takes, blah blah ... ad infinauseum.
-> So? Hey -- this isn't Nightline or 60 Minutes here. Were talking 2 handicams and a betamax type of production. "Apu the Camel Herder gets volunteered to film the ordeal. So, he dutifully mans his Sony DTS-338 and gets ta shootin'."


-> Suspicious timing. Wag the dog.
-> This has NOTHING to do with the authenticity of the video itself.


-> That's not Nick Berg. He's [pick one] (a) skinny (b) hairier (c) hairless (d) dark and tan.
-> Nick was in Iraq. He lost water weight. He was also in prison. He (shocking I know) probably didn't eat much of the gritty gruel by choice. Also, it's damned hot and sunny - he got a tan. As far as the hair issue - razors do nice jobs for shaving folks. And trust me, they shaved him. Notice the nice Jewish shaving job? Hmmm. They REALLY wanted to portray him as a Jew as they executed him. Double meaning here.


-> There was [pick one] (a) lots of blood (b) not enough blood (c) not enough struggling (d) non-realistic movement.
-> Cant really tell. Video sucks. Doesn't matter. Video is real.


-> He's wearing an orange prison jumpsuit.
-> So? Remember the Abu Ghirab prison scandal that not 2 days ago was so hot-to-trot in everyone's front page browser favorites? If you took the time to read some of those reports (and the armie's own scandalous Taguba report) mentions plenty-o-escapees from the Bagdad motel. Some of those folks probably 'donated' their jumpers to Al Queda. Or, howzabout this one: Berg gets thrown in Iraqi jail (corroborated by many stories). Bagdad jails were (for a short time) under the command of -- and getting SUPPLIES from -- the Coalition Provisional Authority. How about that. Or, what if he kept his Orange jumpsuit from the US lockup for 'souvenirs' and it got re-used (ehr, to his disappointment probably).


-> He doesn't struggle.
-> Ok. Simply put - he couldn't. One guy holds his head. A guy jumps on his feet. A guy knees his back. His hands are tied. His feet are tied. He's bound, exhausted, hungry, dehydrated, and surpised. Oh, and getting his throat cut. Even on the floor, the range of movement for the head is controlled by the neck muscles, of which the ones having the strongest power are the traps. But alas - they pull the head BACK (and expose the neck). Hmmm, not good ones to instinctively flex. Thus, the lowly chin-to-chest muscles come in to play and those aren't that powerful -- or powerful enough to overcome someone grabbing your headful of hair and countering that movement.



The primary reasons why I think it's real:

Technical:

-> It's easy(er) to produce a real video
-> It's hard(er) to produce a fake video

Political:

-> Al Queda wants to behead someone (like, oh, an American with a Jewish name)
-> The US Govt. doesnt exactly like us to be watching head-cutting AVI's, especially near election run-up time

Finally, the corroboration required to tie this into Mike Berg's family would be immense.

My overall belief is that (a) he was beheaded, (b) the video is real, and (c) the circumstances are NOT as we see them to be. That leaves a whole 'nother can of worms for another thread.

Finally, the corroboration required to tie this into Mike Berg's family would be immense.

What exactly do you mean by this? If this were some kind of psy ops, Berg's family would not have to have been in on it.


[Edited on 13-5-2004 by spngsambigpants]

Originally posted by Believable Skeptic
-> There are multiple [pick one] cameras, angles, cuts, videos, patches, takes, blah blah ... ad infinauseum.
-> So? Hey -- this isn't Nightline or 60 Minutes here. Were talking 2 handicams and a betamax type of production. "Apu the Camel Herder gets volunteered to film the ordeal. So, he dutifully mans his Sony DTS-338 and gets ta shootin'."

I appreciated your attempt to pose a plausible argument towards this... until I saw what I quoted above. You were being funny for the most part, but this is intolerably racist and not funny at all. Please consider yourself to be an accurate skeptic when you leave behind your racism in exchange for neutrality, and forgive me for being so bold.

[Edited on 5/13/2004 by AlnilamOmega]

My overall belief is that (a) he was beheaded, (b) the video is real, and (c) the circumstances are NOT as we see them to be. That leaves a whole 'nother can of worms for another thread.

I agreed with everything in your message up until (C). Your logic for (A) and (B) were solid, but what is it that leads you to believe that the circumstances are NOT as we seem to be?

Originally posted by AlnilamOmega

Originally posted by Believable Skeptic
-> There are multiple [pick one] cameras, angles, cuts, videos, patches, takes, blah blah ... ad infinauseum.
-> So? Hey -- this isn't Nightline or 60 Minutes here. Were talking 2 handicams and a betamax type of production. "Apu the Camel Herder gets volunteered to film the ordeal. So, he dutifully mans his Sony DTS-338 and gets ta shootin'."

I appreciated your attempt to pose a plausible argument towards this... until I saw what I quoted above. You were being funny for the most part, but this is intolerably racist and not funny at all. Please consider yourself to be an accurate skeptic when you leave behind your racism in exchange for neutrality, and forgive me for being so bold.

[Edited on 5/13/2004 by AlnilamOmega]

rac·ism
n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

I don't see the racist aspect....

Ok, I'll dip my toe in the water on this one.

I think that the video is a fake, possibly 'produced' by the US. That said, and this is the really important bit, I really do believe that the facts contained in the video are true. Berg was beheaded by al Quaeda nutters, but this is, I believe, a 'dramatisation.'

Given the trouble that the US now find themselves in over the 'torture' photo's of Iraqi prisoners, I think all of us see that an element of timing has been applied to the release of this video.

By broadcasting this video, or clips of it, it seems to me to be a classic 'we may be bad but they are much worse' ploy to take the heat off the torture pics....

Just my £0.02 anyway....

[Edited on 13-5-2004 by benjj]

Hold up. Now, US officials are saying that Mr. Berg was told to leave Iraq AND offered a plane ticket home. Supposedly, this happened one month before his beheading was displayed on an "AlQaeda"-linked website. When was this video initially posted?

Excellent title for this thread!

Originally posted by AlnilamOmega

Originally posted by Believable Skeptic
-> There are multiple [pick one] cameras, angles, cuts, videos, patches, takes, blah blah ... ad infinauseum.
-> So? Hey -- this isn't Nightline or 60 Minutes here. Were talking 2 handicams and a betamax type of production. "Apu the Camel Herder gets volunteered to film the ordeal. So, he dutifully mans his Sony DTS-338 and gets ta shootin'."

I appreciated your attempt to pose a plausible argument towards this... until I saw what I quoted above. You were being funny for the most part, but this is intolerably racist and not funny at all. Please consider yourself to be an accurate skeptic when you leave behind your racism in exchange for neutrality, and forgive me for being so bold.

[Edited on 5/13/2004 by AlnilamOmega]

Hmmmm...

"Leave behind racism?" Really now.

Sorry chum. It's just a fact that I have the damned right to talk about anybody any way I freakin choose, thanks. But, getting off my damned-rights soapbox, lemme tell you how it is:

(1) RACISM isn't what I'm about. I'm married to a woman of a different RACE. 11 years married now with BIRACIAL kids. If RACE were so important to my life, I proabably would show it by my actions.

(2) If, for example, I'd said: "Hi. RAGHEADS SUCK AND ARE INFERIOR BEINGS." -- obviously that's RAMPANT RACISM.

(3) Differently, if I'd proclaims "Gosh! I just don't understand the stupid moves of the Taliban", you might imply that I'm exhibiting HIDDEN racism. ("Stupid", "Taliban", same sentence, etc.)

(4) But, gosh man...I just made a funny comment (funny to me, and I agree humor is in the eye of the beholder).

-> Dont waive the RACIST STICK around my words because I used a humerous colloquialism for describing a STEREOTYPE (funny or not, stereotypes are part of our world). RACISM =X= STEREOTYPE.

-> If you want to black-and-white this issue, then I'm sure you'll agree that if you interview the typical Iraqi they have equally similar stereotypes. But, does that make them RACIST? Is saying "John Wayne Cowboy American" any worse than saying "Apu the Camel Herder"? Does it even matter? Hell, they didn't offend me! I bet cha if I traveled to Iraq and asked a middle aged man if he thought he was a camel herder and if his name was Apu -- he'd look at me funny and continue scratching the dirt or walking up the road to buy goat milk. Hell, I don't know! He might even laugh.

-> Why is it that Chris Rock can make jokes about African Americans but if I say the word N!GGER I become a racist?

-> Why is is that *I* can say the word WHITEY but when my best friend (who is black) says "HONKEY or WHITEY" the average reader assumes he's just come from a Black Panther convention and is looking for some white girlfriends to impregnate?

Realize please that RACISM is a condition. Not a statement or a group of words. RACISM is an INTENT to HATE coupled with IGNORANCE. It is not a humorous off-step into comedy that we HAVE to laugh at, because some of it is TRUE!

I know my history and realize that much of civilization was born in the Sumer valley and within the borders of present day Iraq? I'm not ignorant. I don't hate Iraqi's. I don't intend to discredit them.

I just made a statement. But I'm not a racist.

Good lord. I believe you have no sense of Humor! Did a car hit you and knock the funny box out of your noggin?

I mean, c'mon! One of my BEST FRIENDS is an Iranian-born American who served with me in the United States Marine Corps. Even HE laughts at himself, at jokes -- at life. He even calls me a JEW when I'm cheap about certain things. (And I'm not Jewish). And (shock) I LAUGH!

LAUGH MAN! Or, if not, grimmace and move on.

If you're looking for an apology -- here it is:

[Edited on 13-5-2004 by Believable Skeptic]

11) When Berg decapitated, there was almost no blood. If Berg were still
alive at this point, with the cut starting at front of throat, blood would
have been spraying everywhere. Berg's severed head, the floor, Berg's
clothes, and even the hand of the "Arab" who decapitated Berg had no visible
blood on it.

12) Berg's body didn't move while on the ground. Although held down, Berg
would have tried to instinctively wiggle and writhe away from captor's grip.

ok i'm going to comment on these two do some searching and some more...

first i've seen a person die in a manner similar to this and blood does not come spraying out...why? because in the front of the throat it is mostly tendon and muscle. its really tough to cut through and there really are no veins there. you have no idea how hard it to is cut through a voice box...trust me...blood doesnt spray out. thats hollywood BS people.

the person who cut this other persons head off didnt have any blood on him either. it is COMPLETELY possible to do this and not get any blood on you. now since i've not seen the video yet (i'm going to for investigative purposes) i cant say any of this with any certainty but it sounds more like his head was more or less sawed/chopped off. there is the possiblity there is blood on their hands but you cant see it (droplets) the blood more or less pours out and on a dark floor with poor quality footage its almost impossible to see how much there is.

as for 12, did his body move AT all? it is possible he was traumatized and went into shock and his body sort of short circuited and was paralyzed from this. i am NOT saying this is the case but is a possiblity. sometimes the person doesnt move at all, especially if they dont know its coming.



now i smell bull#. from where i dont know but i think things are not as they appear, in the video and in general for this situation.

now after i watch the video i will make notes of it and check out THIS thread and some other boards and try to put something together.

something is rotten in denmark and i dont like one bit of it.

I have been unable to find a link to the video, can anyone help me out. From the minute I heard about the beheading, I felt it was a diversion from the American government. Not only was it used as a diversion, it was used to say, see what they do to us, no wonder why we abuse their prisoners. Furthermore, the abuse of the Iraqi prisoners does not shock me one bit, I expected it, and would have been shocked if there was no abuse. I think the American people, Canadian here, need to open their eyes real wide and follow exactly what is going on, instead of following so blindly. To me, they are following Bush as blindly as their enemies are following the Islamic religion. Being an outsider, looking in, I want to scream out, OPEN YOUR EYES PEOPLE before too much happens. Bush has done nothing but cause you people a lot of shame and problems.

can someone let me know what the link is to the video

This is the time this post was written. Notice the dates.

01:39:40 Fri May 14 2004 in Asia/Baghdad converts to
17:39:40 Thu May 13 2004 in America/New_York

So maybe that is why the dates are mixed up? I don't know though, I'm just asking. There are a lot of questions I'm asking about this case.