Healthcare and Human Rights ...

Hi folks, as some of you may be aware we have a little healthcare reform issue going on in the US.

Maybe you noticed a thread or two on the topic.

I think we're all a little burned out on repeating ourselves with the same old back and forth talking points. Not that they are not valid, they are simply talked out.

So ...

Let's see if we can take a little more fundamental approach to this and see where most folk stand at their core. I believe this approach has some merit, not only for the intellectual exercise, but to calibrate our discourse accordingly and perhaps gain some insight and knowledge into and from each other's perspectives.

In the above spirit, allow me to ask you three questions ...

Is healthcare a fundamental human right and why?

Is healthcare not a fundamental human right and why?

Should healthcare be a fundamental human right and why?

You may choose to answer one or all of the above questions, you can frame them humanistically or constitutionally or both.

Here's some stuff to get us started:

Health Care Is a Right, Not a Privilege
Helathcare is not a right
Should healthcare be a right

The latter contains this caption:

A right is defined as a natural entitlement. The Declaration of Independence delineates the most basic of human rights as inalienable: "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Because they are an entitlement, not a privilege or favor, we do not owe anyone gratitude for their recognition of our rights. The purpose of rights is to protect individual autonomy, however, every right confers on someone a responsibility or obligation. There is no free lunch.

Liberty rights protect unencumbered effort and choices, as far as the rights of others are not encroached on. The responsibility for protecting our individual right to liberty rests largely on the state's police power, which is dedicated to protect the citizenry from physical harm.

The right to the pursuit of happiness is to some extent synonymous with the right to own property. The right to the accumulation of property does not confer an entitlement to be given wealth though the government in general guarantees that an individual will not be deprived of his property and sometimes even provides incentives for people to accumulate property. This right obviously has the corresponding responsibility of individual ingenuity and hard work.

For the purposes of this conversation, and in an effort to stay on topic, we don't really need to dwell once again into the particulars of the healthcare bill/bills. Though you are obviously welcome to include your thoughts on that, it is largely irrelevant to the conversation. Because I the end of the day, if we do not agree that healthcare is or should be a human right then we surely should apply that knowledge onto any future policy decision.

So, speak you heart and your mind, and let's see if we can have a nice, thoughtful, and considered discourse on the topic.

[edit on 16 Aug 2009 by schrodingers dog]

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
Is healthcare a fundamental human right and why?

Yes it is a human right providing one is talking about treatment of physical injures , mental injuries and illness not boob jobs .

Should healthcare be a fundamental human right and why?

Try going without it when your not in good health enough said . The real debate is about how to best deliver health care to people .

Originally posted by xpert11

Yes it is a human right providing one is talking about treatment of physical injures , mental injuries and illness not boob jobs .

I reluctantly agree.
Elective cosmetic surgery other than for birth deformities or trauma is not a basic human right.

Try going without it when your not in good health enough said . The real debate is about how to best deliver health care to people .

True, but there are many threads on that, little real progress can be made unless we first determine if healthcare is a right or a privilege. Hence the idea behind this thread.

I think health care is a human right ONLY to the extent that if someone is sick, they have a right to be seen and treated. The reason I think this is that to do otherwise (let a person remain ill or die) is inhumane. I can see health care falling under the right to pursue happiness.

I don't think health insurance is a right. But I do think that everyone in this country should have access to it. Because that's the way we get health care. So, as it's set up now, I want to see this bill pass. Because I want to live in a society where we take care of our fellow man instead of being selfish and leaving him to be sick or die. If those who can afford it have to give a little extra to make sure that everyone can have access to good health care, I'm absolutely okay with that. Because I don't want to live in a society where the people who are fortunate enough to have a good income take care of themselves and let the less fortunate in our society go without health care and get sick and die.

Hi S-Dog, I decided to jump in here. I don't know if we will agree or not, but discussion is still a good thing. You ask:

Is healthcare a fundamental human right and why?

Is healthcare not a fundamental human right and why?

Should healthcare be a fundamental human right and why?

Here is how I see it, ACCESS to healthcare is a basic human right. And we have access to healthcare pretty much everywhere in this country.

What I think you are really asking though is should it be a right to receive healthcare without any significant direct out of pocket costs?

There I say, probably not.

Some say "basic health care" should be a right, and it's costs should be subsidized by the people's taxes and .gov efforts.

Well, exactly how do you define basic health care?

Is it the annual physical & vaccines required from birth to go to schools and participate in sports activities?

Is it treatment for colds and ear infections and allergies and broken bones and bad teeth?

Is basic health care to include all treatment for all disease, regardless of the cause of it's origin?

What I personally think is that we should all have a fundamental right to access to health care that CURES our diseases, not just treats the symptoms of them.

But that isn't a reality in today's world now is it?

I also think we have a fundamental right to access to non-fluoridated water and fresh food that still carry their full nutritional value.

But that isn't a reality either, is it? Well wait, it is, but...

I have to either pay for that pure clean water, or buy the distillation equipment to make it myself. I can buy the heirloom seeds and grow my own food, without pesticides or any genetic modifications to my foods. I can search for a rancher that doesn't use steroids or hormones in his cattle or poultry for my meats and buy them from him.

But wait... if I have to pay for it, it isn't actually a right, is it?

But, it is still accessible, so I still have the right to spend my money for the benefit of my health to have optimum food and water.

I still have the right to pay for "alternative" therapies that can actually CURE a disease & not just drug me to alleviate the symptoms of the disease.

So I still have those basic fundamental rights.

How is healthcare different?

Oh, I know, It's REALLY expensive!!!!

But then, is it "correct" for us to say to those who provide our medical care, that they have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get the education and training to heal us, and then we will limit what they can earn?

Is it "correct" for us to demand that our hospitals have the best and most state of the art equipment to help diagnose and treat us, but then tell them that we will limit what they can charge us for access to that equipment, regardless of the cost to the hospital facility?

Is it a fundamental right for a person with, say.. Diabetes, to choose to ignore what is best for them, and continue to consume foods that will keep their blood glucose out of control, and cause more problems later, from blindness to loss of limb, to heart disease?

Is it a fundamental right for the above diabetic to then demand that someone else pays for the extra care and procedures they need to remain alive & somewhat healthy, even though they were the ones responsible for the decline in the their health status in the first place?

We ALL have access to healthcare, so that right is, in essence, granted & ensured.

The real question on the table is Do we have a right to have OTHER PEOPLE pay the costs related to our healthcare.

To that I say no.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


for me - it's like asking if people deserve to be fed

I am aware that there are people who will say - it's not my responsibility or obligation to feed them

I know some of these people

I also know that they can say whatever they want - and they do - but when it gets down to it - they cannot stand by and let someone go hungry

I once watched one of these types fill a car with groceries for a woman living out of her car

so - with health care - it might be easy to say it's not a right - and maybe easy for people to feel comfortable with that as long as it's just a discussion - but what kind of person would deny assistance to someone in pain when that person is right in front of them?

I say - maybe not a right - it's just part of being human - we help each other

it's just easier to deny our humanity once it becomes about money and legislation - and the people are hypothetical

who cares about hypothetical people?

Yes. Health care is a right, we ought to fund so that all citizens have equal treatment, a bare minimum level of treatment. The argument over funding is misplaced. We have a common defense, public education, court systems that provide attorney's, we fund research grants to fund new drugs, we fund scholarships and offer tax breaks to corporations that hire certain types of people. Yet, we flip out over helping publicly drive down the individual cost of insurance and medical care. We scream bloody murder over this one issue while we are being raped ever which way in other areas. There is a balance, and I don't think government should have their hand in everything, but we ought to think about our fellow man that ultimately we pay anyway through higher costs of uninsured.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Perhaps this healthcare debate is far less about the healthcare and is really about ensuring a political gridlock, as world attention is fixated on the screaming and fighting.

I bet that by and large this is a distractionary technique to draw public attention away from other issues that could very well uncover the depth of the deceit and corruption of world leaders (in other countries they have their hot button distractions as well).

Healthcare won't mean a thing when you are unemployed and living on the streets eating rich people's handouts and garbage.

We are cooked like the proverbial goose. Period.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I think health care is a human right ONLY to the extent that if someone is sick, they have a right to be seen and treated. The reason I think this is that to do otherwise (let a person remain ill or die) is inhumane. I can see health care falling under the right to pursue happiness.

I don't think health insurance is a right. But I do think that everyone in this country should have access to it. Because that's the way we get health care. So, as it's set up now, I want to see this bill pass. Because I want to live in a society where we take care of our fellow man instead of being selfish and leaving him to be sick or die. If those who can afford it have to give a little extra to make sure that everyone can have access to good health care, I'm absolutely okay with that. Because I don't want to live in a society where the people who are fortunate enough to have a good income take care of themselves and let the less fortunate in our society go without health care and get sick and die.

Maybe you don't realize that you already have what you ask for. If you don't have insurance, and are truely sick or hurt, you can go to the E-room and they have to help you. How do you think all the illegals get help.

reply to post by GideonHM and j2000


Do you guys mind offering your thoughts on healthcare as a fundamental human right as it relates to the OP.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


In my opinion, healthcare is not a right, it is a service.

for long parts of our history, healthcare was the responsibility of the individual and/or their family (unit). Even back in various tribal times, there was a medicine man, and they often were tendered some sort of payment.

See, here is the thing, these people are maintaining the body as a specialist, much as a mechanic is a specialist who keeps your car running, and the computer geek keeps your computer running, and so on. Now, you don't seem to ever suddenly declare that these services are rights too, because you know that you don't really need them to live and survive.

But, when it comes to a person's survival, they suddenly get entirely selfish and somehow manufacture in their heads that because a person can do a certain task, that it is their soulbound duty to perform it for them. It is this entirely ego driven sense of self entitlement that makes people believe that they should get everything for free, because it is an emergency, but only for them because we know, god forbid, any other emergency is trumped by theirs. They also conveniently forget that whole payment thing at the end.

Mind you, this completely takes out the case of good samaritanism(sp?) on the part of a doctor. If they want to treat a person for free on teh spot, or even for pay on teh spot, they should be able to, but they should not be mandated to.

That is, unless you rather relish the idea of at any given time being 'morally obligated' and mandated to do your craft on demand to whomever for a fee you don't even get to determine, and then later jump through hoops to get that payment because its from a third party who is also going to second guess you at every turn.

But I digress. Healthcare is a service, and you do not have a right to it. In fact, doctors should have more rights as to being able to pick and choose their clientele.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Clearly I'd have to say it is a human right, to better yourself and your

body should always be readily available if you so shall please to persue it.

I believe that as Americans we should hold to the ideal of Freedom and the

ability to provide any type of freedoms necessary to an individual who

wants them. The healthcare bill may seem alarming in some aspects but if

you don't try it how are we gonna know how it will play out? A bill can

always be changed once instated and I believe the republican's are

alarmed because what if this makes alot of people happy? I think we all

know the result of that, Dems in office for a long time. As stated before

I'm undeclared and I'm not pro-party I'm pro-people and believe me if

America has to revolt because of faulty policy the people in office will

change it, don't forget that the military have families too.

If you ask me, or any human being for that matter some of these questions are really dumb. Is health care a right? That's like asking is being alive a right?

Do I have the right to be healthy? Who are you to say?

reply to post by CoffinFeeder


You really think the payment still isn't going to be there? Taxes my friend

Taxes and I'm already paying them so why not say pay 5 dollars more in

taxes instead of 50 dollars a month in medicare? Also don't forget that the

high class MD's won't just go out of business the bill need to be structured

to accomodate them as well, so in essence better care will be available

but possibly for the people who REALLY need it and not just the people

who can afford it.

[edit on 16-8-2009 by NoJoker13]

basic health care is a right. nobody should have to suffer in pain or die from a condition that can be treated with the medical knowledge we have to date, no matter how expensive it is. and nobody should die in the gutter - all humans should have the right to a decent death (not euthanasia) in decent conditions.

however because of that cost associated it is also an obligation on the part of each of us. that means we should all - by law - have to participate to some kind of healthcare fund ("insurance") that will guarantee to pay any costs (less a reasonable co-pay) in case we do get seriously sick. at the same time by law that fund should not be allowed to "drop" anyone especially when they get sick and should not be able to reject anyone (or jack up rates to inhuman levels) based on past medical history.

this will free up emergency rooms and reduce overall costs. yes you can go to the ER for care, but it will cost you (or society) tens of times more than a regular doc's visit. and because most ERs are crowded, you're likely to get worse care than a non-emergency doctor would provide you with.

i think there should be a cap to out of pocket healthcare costs based on how much each person is earning. a fixed percent or sum will not do it because someone making 30K can't afford as much as someone making 300K.

and given the fact that insurers would not be allowed to dump sick people, there should be a national health database available to each doctor so that when you have to see 3 doctors for the same problem you don't get to take the same test 3 times unless it was inconclusive and needs to be repeated. it will also stop "doctor shoppers" from abusing the current system. now that will save a lot of $$$!

[edit on 16-8-2009 by DarkSecret]

Not only a fundamental right, but a moral right. Just think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs to get the big picture. As sentient beings, we all have the need for self-preservation. And, being that we are also moral beings, we show compasion towards others in their suffering (or should).

Healthcare, properly defined, reprents our civilized attempts to meet these needs. Preserve the body and show compasion towards our fellow man.

Originally posted by CoffinFeeder
reply to post by schrodingers dog

 

In my opinion, healthcare is not a right, it is a service.

for long parts of our history, healthcare was the responsibility of the individual and/or their family (unit). Even back in various tribal times, there was a medicine man, and they often were tendered some sort of payment.

See, here is the thing, these people are maintaining the body as a specialist, much as a mechanic is a specialist who keeps your car running, and the computer geek keeps your computer running, and so on. Now, you don't seem to ever suddenly declare that these services are rights too, because you know that you don't really need them to live and survive.

so when you're diagnosed with cancer and your insurance drops you where are you going to shop for a new body? geek squad?

because you're basically implying that you're able to buy a new or used body just as you can buy a car, computer, house, etc. it is after all a service, and since there's profit to be made, the providers/new body dealers should line up to get your money for that brand new highend body. right? right?

if healthcare is just a service you're advocating eugenics since most poor will not afford it and die out. but then again natural selection and survival of the fittest is a good thing right? it also saves your precious tax payer money to go subsidize haliburton or the F22

I say yes it is a human right...

It impacts life and in dire cases ability itself -

I believe it is an exception in the capitalist realm, just as military, justice system, roads, basic infrastructure and prison system. All which could be giving a SOCIALIST tag by the merits that everyone pays for it, (should) benefit from it.,By the same definition a toilet in
a national park or an AMTRAK station is dabbling in socialist behavior. However in this case lack of access to a toilet does not have the potential to kill, destroy families or unravel the very wealth of a nation. In a bit of right wing thought, prisons for instance, I liken the debate to-taxation,,,, logic being.

"IF YOU OVER TAX THE WEALTHY YOU ARE PUNISHING THEM FOR BEING SUCCESSFUL"

WEELLLLLLLL, does that not mean:

"IF YOU PROVIDE CONVICTED CRIMINALS WITH HEALTH CARE (AS THEY HAVE) AREN'T YOU PUNISHING THE INNOCENT"?

OR REWARDING THE CRIMINALS????

Anyhow I could apply many things on the basis of logic and find ways to apply ANTI HEALTH LOGIC TOO...

Things that are perfectly acceptable and much less fundamental -

I just think this society takes time to grow - from womans rights to civil rights - this is the next stop and like the other past Neanderthalisms it is just a matter of time.
We cannot be a society that allows such a fundamental thing to be over looked.
It impacts EVERY person, it is the new slavery and TIS A MATTER OF TIME INDEED.



[edit on 16-8-2009 by mental modulator]

[edit on 16-8-2009 by mental modulator]

Originally posted by CoffinFeeder
reply to post by schrodingers dog

 

Even back in various tribal times,

Well put and extremely poetic

great way to frame the debate

reply to post by DarkSecret


In essence the feller is saying to go to work with a brain tumor, save up, work hard,,, and one day boy all this can be yours....



AS LONG AS YOU ARE NOT LAZY!!!

Tribal Indeed



[edit on 16-8-2009 by mental modulator]