ABUSE CRISIS: Pfc. Lynndie England: "I was told to stand there and hold the leash."

Now seen around the world holding a demeaning leash and pointing at prisoner's genitals, Army Pfc. Lynndie England said she was ordered to pose for the now-famous photographs, and felt "kind of weird." In an interview with Denver TV Station KCNC-TV, England confirmed there were worst abuses in the prison, but declined to discuss them. www.CBSnews.com "Well, I mean, they [the photos] were for psy-op reasons," she said "And the reasons worked. I mean, so to us, we were doing our job, which meant we were doing what we were told, and the outcome was what they wanted. They'd come back and they'd look at the pictures, and they'd state, 'Oh, that's a good tactic, keep it up. That's working. This is working. Keep doing it. It's getting what we need.'" ATSNN.com Abuse Crisis Special Coverage Related News Pfc. Lynndie England Talks about Iraqi Prison Scandal Lynndie England lawyer hits out at Bush Why Lynndie England is the public face of Torturegate [Edited on 12-5-2004 by SkepticOverlord] [Edited on 12-5-2004 by SkepticOverlord] [Edited on 13-5-2004 by SkepticOverlord]

This excuse goes back to frickin ancient Rome and earlier.


I WAS ONLY FOLLOWING ORDERS.

It's boolsheet. Soldiers are not forced to follow any orders that violate the rule of law. If they do the deed, they're guilty.

i don't know...she didn't look like she was just standing there with leash in hand posing for a pic. This sicko girl looked like she was in action.

It is very possible that they were told to use these methods of torture, but Ms. England looked like a very willing participant in the all the pics with her in it.

I have seen two with her, I believe, the one with the leash and the one with her pointing to the guy's genitals.....and why was she grinning so much in that second pic, if it was a forced and she felt "kind of wierd".

Justification is being told to do so? I don't think so. If you feel, or know that something is wrong, and do it anyway, much less with a smile on your face, you're chosing to do so. It's no one's fault but your own.

It's hard to determin whether she is just trying to save her skin or there actually is this abuse being allowed and ordered by the U.S military. Regardless of which one is true these troops should be ashamed their unacceptable treatment of the new freedom-filled Iraqi peoples.

Good for her. What we've seen so far is nothing by comparison to what those people do to our soldiers when the capture them. Quit whining about some demeaning photos when those animals are taking videos of themselves ahcking the head off a man who wasn't even a military target.

Originally posted by Mr No One
Good for her. What we've seen so far is nothing by comparison to what those people do to our soldiers when the capture them. Quit whining about some demeaning photos when those animals are taking videos of themselves ahcking the head off a man who wasn't even a military target.

This kind of justification is wrong. The US is supposed to be above this kind of conduct. Just because terrorists are barbaric doesn't mean we should be.

Well, my reaction is this is crap. BUT, my fiancee has a totally different take and always has. She served 10 years Navy, 6 on the Lincoln and 4 Seabees. The whole time this story broke she was telling about how they abused people every day and, were rewarded for it.

She also firmly believes that all the higher-ups knew what was going on, but are now portraying this as 10-12 malcontents just to save the situation. Scapegoats...

They may be scapegoats, and I really wouldn't be surprised if this was ordered. However, you cannot expect to be seen as justified in your actions just because you were ordered to do something, IMO. Just because you're ordered to do it, doesn't make it right.

Would any of you do this if you were ordered to?

I listened to her lawyer today and he made a point that seems to be overlooked here. Why are we only prosecuting the actual perpetrators? This whole thing was being directed by Intelligence in order to break down these prisoners and obtain information. Why hasn't anyone in Intelligence been charged and why hasn't the CO of the prison been charged? It makes about as much sense as charging mafia hitmen without ever going after the capo.

This nasty little creature has been caught red - handed,and now she is trying to pass the buck .
No civilised human should treat anybody this way,irrespective of what they may,or may not have done.
It seems she was an all too willing participant in this sadistic behaviour.
These idiot brutes have caused irrepairable damage and have subsequently damaged U.S claims to have the moral high-ground.

Originally posted by Bleys
I listened to her lawyer today and he made a point that seems to be overlooked here. Why are we only prosecuting the actual perpetrators? This whole thing was being directed by Intelligence in order to break down these prisoners and obtain information. Why hasn't anyone in Intelligence been charged and why hasn't the CO of the prison been charged? It makes about as much sense as charging mafia hitmen without ever going after the capo.

there is an ongoing investigation and more people will be held accountable including some of the higher uppers. However the big deal right now is about the perpetrators caught on film in action, totally justifable action, while the main investigation continues.

That's bs, you can see she was having a good time as she was posing for the pictures, she is just trying to save her skin now imo.

It is far more than a woman leading someone around on a leash. And before anyone starts saying it isn't half as bad as what they have done to us, remember that 90% of the people being held at that prison are WRONGLY imprisoned. No charges have been made. This treatment was ordered in order to "break" them. To get any information that would help the military. The actions are unacceptable. I do believe they are being made into scapegoats, but at what point does your attitude toward following orders begin, and your humanity end? Check this out:

www.comcast.net...

how can you be so suprised? its not like this is somekind of annomaly, this is more of a norm when treating prisoners of war by the US gov. the fact that amnesty have had Knowledge of this for what, more than a year I think?
this kind of torture to either get info or just break morale is encuraged by US gov. when they got some regim doing their dirty work, and hidden but rewarded by their own troops.
If you want to get shocked? lets start whith the prisnorners of war that are being kept at guantanamo without any riths at all and wothout even getting charged with somthing, lets start with the fact that since 9/11 the US has broken more serius international laws than any of "the Axis of evil" and to top it of say your doing it for justice and freedom?? # that.

[Edited on 12-5-2004 by disturbence]

Originally posted by Anung Un Rama
Just because terrorists are barbaric doesn't mean we should be.

Some say "To beat the devil, you gotta become the devil your self".

But I still don't understand why there's all these homosexuallity act and nudity involve. Why don't they simply use good old torture method? Is the US army really as sick as it's starting to be portrayed?

I think it has more to do with the culture of the prisoners. Acts of this nature are EXTREMELY offensive to them - showing the bottom of the foot, showing nakedness, homoerotic acts, etc... - all of these things are taboo to muslims.

It's almost as if someone was trying to get these pics done (and seen) on purpose - but why?

I dare not say what one theory could be...



[Edited on 12-5-2004 by natas]

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
She also firmly believes that all the higher-ups knew what was going on, but are now portraying this as 10-12 malcontents just to save the situation. Scapegoats...

That is more in line with my own theories as well. I think your wife has a very good grasp of at least some of the situation. In fact, she sounds like she would make a good ATS member in fact, is she?

I do agree with a few others here who say that this chick in the photos isn't exactly giving the impression that she's too upset over what she's doing. As a matter of fact, she pretty much looks like a gal having a 'good ol' time' in most of the pictures. However, if her story is true, (which I'm sure it is to some degree), a look of pleasure may very well have been part of a 'psi-op' plan. (I personally cannot wait to read more about what those alleged 'ops' were all about too!)

So, depending on what all she was directly involved with, whether it was just humiliation type stuff, or gross physical torture, my opinion about her is not as of yet set. The excuse of 'well I was told to do this or that' only really goes so far, since she made the final choice to do whatever she did. Which, if you're familiar with human psychology isn't really all that shocking to see. I doubt she's as Evil as many people are making her out to be. It's much more likely that she was acting exactly the way a properly brainwashed, over stressed, soldier is supposed to when they are being told what to do by a commanding officer (if that is in fact true.) Not to mention that these people are, after all, in the middle of a freakin WAR, so assuming that she was in a normal state of mind is most likely a bad assumption.

Before I get attacked, let me state specifically, I AM NOT MAKING EXCUSES FOR HER!! What she did is wrong in so many ways, both morally & legally, it's not even questionable. However, I am not ready to believe that she was the 'Ringleader' or even one of the 'Big Fish' in the full scope of this Sinister, Disgusting and Horrible Series of Events. She is a participant though, and needs to be dealt with, but I think it's much more important that none of us get too worked up with her alone, and possibly allow an even more dangerous and corrupt set of criminals slip through un-noticed!!

"We don't hate people anymore--now we just make fun of them. It's more effective that way."--KMFDM

The reason these interrogation techniques were used is exactly that. They were effective. We look at the panties on the head and laugh because it's just silly--like something you'd see on a college movie. To them, it is the utmost in humiliation. When faced with the prospect of being exposed to their friends and family in this condition and facing a life of shame, they spill the beans. "Keep it up! It's working!" I'm sure it did. Understand, we're dealing with some seriously repressed people here. Their taboos on sex are so severe that I find it amazing they're able to procreate at all. Say what you will, our interrogation techniques are more humane than anyone else's. Actually, I find it amazing that they're so effective, being as such.

Scapegoated? Definitely. Interrogators aren't supposed to be prim, proper, and nice. Their subjects need to look upon them as individuals to be feared and loathed. i.e. "I'll tell you whatever you want to know--just keep that freaky perverted woman away from me!"

What did everyone think happened in interrogation? "No tea and crumpets if you don't talk?" "We know you were shooting at us and set off that roadside IED yesterday, don't you really think that was a little much?" Pleeeeease.

Originally posted by Q
We look at the panties on the head and laugh because it's just silly--like something you'd see on a college movie.

Never laughed at either of those, sorry you did.

Getting attack dogs to bite, forcing sexual connection beyond simulation, allowing people to bash their heads into walls, and beating people to death - are they funny? That is what's missing from the first "photo album".

You are barking up the wrong tree.

Rumsfeld today for the first time conceded that the military effort and occupation in Iraq could fail. Almost thirteen months after Bush declared some kind pf "victory".