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Who ISN'T a charlatan in the "UFO community"?

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posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 05:45 PM
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I think Charles Hall story is very interesting and he seems like a god fearing honest man too "So yer I take him as credible!"




posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 05:56 PM
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reply to post by internos
 


I'll add my support to Jacques Vallee as one of the best. He's definitely not afraid to explore the possibility of the natural phenomenon and the possible inter-dimensional aspect of UFO's and abduction experiences.

Zorgon writes a great story....links things together in very creative ways....but I can't rank him as a "researcher". If anything, he's more of a conspiracy novelist than researcher. He could possibly do well with a book length project....the fanbois would lap that stuff up.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 05:57 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 06:02 PM
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reply to post by ZombieOctopus
 


I totally see your point. There are so many kooks that make up the field of ufology that it makes it very very difficult to differentiate betwen the charlatans and the genuinely intelligent folks that make very incredible arguments.

Then there are those that use the community as a religious theatre of sorts (the way many t.v. evangelists use people of a religion to make money) to provide a living for themselves...


But as sure as I am about the usury of others in this field I am positive their are those genuinely commited to bringing the truth as close to the surface as possible...



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 06:05 PM
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Originally posted by ZombieOctopus
Dark Mission: The Secret History of NASA - Richard Hoagland: It's difficult to take someone who claims to have exposed a massive government conspiracy seriously, when they have yet to expose a rudimentary understanding of the English language. Sigh. That aside, before reading the book, I thought Hoagland was a little egotistical; now I firmly believe that he's a sociopath. All this book consists of is: ego-stroking, name dropping, paranoid delusional thoughts and building up his illusion of grandeur.


Agreed, I love to listen to Hoaglands theories, I wish they were true but he reaches so far and doesn't come up with any solid evidence to back things up. His background is pretty pathetic, he was a lackey of Cronkite and a museum curator at some small museum. He basically just seems to be a fan of science fiction and tries to create a setting of it on the real world.

I find it fascinating that while he believes Nasa has airbrushed (I have no doubt they do too) - all of his pictorial evidence is also based on Nasa photos - kind of a double standard.

Regarding Whitley Streiber - that guy is a loony galore. That is why he writes fiction - none of his work is classified non-fiction I don't think - he says so himself. WIth that said, just listening to him on radio shows and conferences you can tell he is out of it and does not think rationally.

George Knapp is by far my favorite these days. Jim Marrs, Stanton Friedmann, Bruce Maccabee, etc.

I also like to hear John Lears theories and thoughts - albeit with a grain of salt but his resume is impressive and one thing about him - he has never made a dime off all of it.

[edit on 16-8-2009 by chucktaggart]



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 06:57 PM
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I'm relatively new to UFOlogy but Stanton Friedman just rubs me the wrong way. Maybe he has done a lot of good research but he comes across as sleazy to me. I wish I could find the video of him raising up his book to the camera on Larry King everytime the camera panned to him whether he was speaking or not. That is just wrong.

Richard Dolan seems like a stand up guy from what I have read and the radio interviews.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 07:11 PM
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reply to post by chucktaggart
 


Strieber... I'm undecided if he has a vivid imagination or if he's delusional. If you only read his books, I think you would come to the conclusion that he's just a fictional author. But, if you take a listen to his radio show, Dreamland (formally Art Bell's show), you would easily conclude that he's suffering from extreme paranoid delusions - he's that out there.

I think what happened was: he started selling his fiction as such, made a little money, then people started to ask him if there was a grain of truth to his stories and Strieber couldn't resist adding another niche to his audience. Time went on, his story became more and more elaborate, interweaving it with his own life, until soon he couldn't untangle the fictional events from his own bland existence and he liked the fictional life he created for himself better.

More time past and Strieber began to buy his own snake oil. He told the story so many times - on the radio, on TV, in books, on the internet, in conferences - that he's graduated, in a psychological sense, from illusion, to delusion.

If you do listen to Dreamland sometime (I do, but for entertainment, he's a good story teller), you'll hear him say that his books are most certainly not fictional. Even his newer book "The Greys", which unlike Communion, doesn't say on the cover that it's a true story, he reiterates ad nasium is a non-fictional account. Although, he claims his publisher "forced him" to say otherwise for a variety of deluded, conspiratorial reasons.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 07:24 PM
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reply to post by ZombieOctopus
 


George Knapp may or may not be legitimate, he's done some good reporting, especially on the dumping of toxic waste in Area 51. As for his UFO stuff... a bit wishy washy.

Richard Dolan has talked about reptilians lately which makes me think he's mixed in with the coming alien false flag attack and is part of the NWO (whether he knows this or not, he might be in a mind control bubble). He seems to be a good historian, but I don't trust his angle and he could have been fed garbage by TPTB. Garbage in, garbage out.

Nick Pope is a disinfo agent. You can tell this by the fact that he rambles endlessly about UFO's yet allowed himself to be thrown into a television debate against 911 being an inside job. Right, lights in the sky mean massive alien influence on earth, yet thermite means al qeada. His information is worthless because 911 is very obviously an inside job, and he, because of his job history, is clearly an insider (or a useful idiot).

Stanton Friedman has nice prose and usually says smart stuff. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

I personally think that the situation is this: there is no government contact with ET's. They don't want anything to do with the psychopathocracy, they being the aliens. They come here and seek contact either with normal people who don't display fear or with more spiritual and in touch people for more advanced contacts and to give advice. At most the governments have shot a few UFO's down, with little resistance from the aliens, who usually just fly off when provoked. They are higher beings, we are the savages. We don't control the phenomenon, they do. If we decide not to behave like savages there is a chance we can establish personal contact. There probably is not yet ufologist who is fully aware of what the UFO and contact phenomenon really is, which could be something more akin to spiritual counseling than to civilizational diplomacy.

Consider looking for truth in the new age sources, although I wager that there's tons of bs there too. Perhaps the best place to find the truth about UFO's is to meditate on them, in a remote location at night. They will come to you...



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 07:35 PM
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Originally posted by Mindmelding
Consider looking for truth in the new age sources, although I wager that there's tons of bs there too. Perhaps the best place to find the truth about UFO's is to meditate on them, in a remote location at night. They will come to you...


It would seem that we fall on completely opposite sides of the fence.

People that buy into the "new age" movement may have good intentions, but they are the absolutely the most unreliable place for any sort of facts. I would go as far as to say "new age" and facts, are mutually exclusive.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 07:43 PM
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I agree that the UFO community can be frustrating, however imagine how frustrating it is for actual researchers!
I have had the opportunity to go UFO conferences in the UK, here i met a few authors such as Timothy Good, Georgina Bruni, the late Martin Stubbs (NASA smoking gun videos), Nick Pope and others. All of whom i found to be earnest researchers and witnesses, dedicated to their work. There are, of course, some who are charlatans, however it is very difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff.
For me the problem is the subject matter they research. It is in itself fantastical in nature, so straight away people will be skeptical, but of course the further they dig the more fantastical the information they uncover, becomes.
Many say that until hard prove is provided, that they will be skeptical, however what hard evidence do they want? Personally i believe there is plenty out there already, masses of documentation is available, if its fraudulent then governments are telling even bigger lies.
This issue is staggeringly complex, i will try and show this is a future thread (need more posts to be allowed to start thread), as a result it takes a long time and enormous dedication and patience to research this topic. Those who choose to do so should be applauded. At the end of the day all they can do is put forward what information they have found, submit a theory and then let people decide for themselves. That's all they can do, nothing more, this is why there are indeed charlatans in the movement, its a natural consequence i believe.
In many ways this is a question of faith, do you have it? I do, as i have witnessed UFO's on two separate occasions, but that's me , we all have to decide individually.
Disinformation, lies and fraud is a fact of life for the fringe, but in the end all it does is encourage greater research, that's up to us, its our responsibility to do this, we can't just rely on the words and thoughts of others. That's how charlatans flourish. If you find the topic unbelievable than you have 2 choices, forget about it, or start researching yourself. There is no other way.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 03:25 AM
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I think we should also pay homage to those other greats.....

Johnathon Reed
Billy Meier
Michael Horn
Joe Escamilla
Jaime Maussen
Michael Cohen
Richard Where'd My Face On Mars Go Hoagland
Umm....that galactic light federation something or other woman...
Some space rods
Some reptilians

Sorry....I should probably delete this post...



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 04:42 AM
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Originally posted by Tristanchi
I agree that the UFO community can be frustrating, however imagine how frustrating it is for actual researchers!

The researcher that Sam60 mentioned as reliable, Brian Vike, said on his site he's leaving the field, and based on his comments, it does sound like it's hard on the researchers:

I am leaving the UFO field for good, it is time for me to get back to all the things I enjoyed before getting involved with UFOs. The funny thing is I have spent so much time on this unusual topic I forgot I had another life.



For me the problem is the subject matter they research. It is in itself fantastical in nature, so straight away people will be skeptical, but of course the further they dig the more fantastical the information they uncover, becomes.


How fantastical it is, is debatable. Lots of things move through the skies, and some of them are not easily identified. Even some things that don't move through the skies are reported as UFOs because they appear to move, like Kenneth Arnold's famous sighing that kicked off the term "flying saucer". In some ways, the truth about his sighting is almost as interesting as if he had seen flying saucers, so fascinating, yes, but fantastical, maybe not.


Many say that until hard prove is provided, that they will be skeptical, however what hard evidence do they want? Personally i believe there is plenty out there already, masses of documentation is available, if its fraudulent then governments are telling even bigger lies.

I spent most of my life growing up believing that at least some UFOs were of extraterrestrial origin, but I never had the time to research the cases myself. Now that I have been doing that, each case I look at seems to fall apart under scrutiny, so though I agree with your other points, I have to say I'm still looking for ANY proof that UFOs are extraterrestrial, so far I haven't found it. But there are definitely UFOs, and while 95% of them can be explained, that leaves a few that are unexplained. But having an unexplained sighting, and jumping to the conclusion that it must be ET, is hardly proof.


This issue is staggeringly complex, i will try and show this is a future thread (need more posts to be allowed to start thread), as a result it takes a long time and enormous dedication and patience to research this topic. Those who choose to do so should be applauded. At the end of the day all they can do is put forward what information they have found, submit a theory and then let people decide for themselves. That's all they can do, nothing more, this is why there are indeed charlatans in the movement, its a natural consequence i believe.


I agree with you, the charlatans can just as easily put forth their theories as more respectable researchers and it takes some effort to sort out the claims.


In many ways this is a question of faith, do you have it? I do, as i have witnessed UFO's on two separate occasions, but that's me , we all have to decide individually.


You are in good company with your question of faith. Isaac Asimov said that one of the few people he ever met who was smarter than himself, was Carl Sagan, a brilliant guy. (OK I might be a little biased if you read my sig). And he had this to say about the "religion of belief in ET" back in 1966 (and I think most of what he says still applies as much today as it did back in 1966):


(click to open player in new window)


"This is religion.........What's involved is psychology and theology"-Carl Sagan



Disinformation, lies and fraud is a fact of life for the fringe, but in the end all it does is encourage greater research, that's up to us, its our responsibility to do this, we can't just rely on the words and thoughts of others. That's how charlatans flourish. If you find the topic unbelievable than you have 2 choices, forget about it, or start researching yourself. There is no other way.


I agree, conducting my own research has really given me a different perspective, as opposed to taking the word of other researchers.


Originally posted by Sam60
I think we should also pay homage to those other greats.....


UFOwatchdog paid homage to 6 pages of characters like those here: www.ufowatchdog.com...

So they beat us to it.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 04:53 AM
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Paracast is awesome, you people should check it out, i have some episodes on my ipod, great listening!!



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 06:11 AM
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Originally posted by Chadwickus
So I hereby nominate internos as a non-charlatan.


Good call Chadwickus!

I wholeheartedly agree! Internos is easily one of the best I know!
We are all lucky to have him as an ATS Member!
 


reply to post by Sam60
 


LOL! You forgot about the Ishtar Command, the Raelians, L Ron Hubbard, Dan Burisch and my mates Stan Romanek and Jeff Peckman to name but a few!

IRM


[edit on 17/8/09 by InfaRedMan]



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 06:38 AM
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Originally posted by Acidtastic
Nick Pope. He's not a charleton. He worked for 21 years at the MOD, 3 of those years in charge of the UFO reporting bit.


His co-workers at the MOD say he was nothing more than a paper pushing bureaucrat. He seems to be an okay bloke, although people erroneously assume (and he appears happy not to dispel the assumption) that he was a British Fox Mulder -- which he wasn't.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 06:53 AM
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Originally posted by McDonalds

Originally posted by Acidtastic
Nick Pope. He's not a charleton. He worked for 21 years at the MOD, 3 of those years in charge of the UFO reporting bit.


His co-workers at the MOD say he was nothing more than a paper pushing bureaucrat. He seems to be an okay bloke, although people erroneously assume (and he appears happy not to dispel the assumption) that he was a British Fox Mulder -- which he wasn't.


I don't think Nick Pope has ever pretended to be a British "Fox Mulder".

I think he has only ever suggested he was in the right place to receive a lot of reports, view a lot of material & make a modest number of follow-ups regarding some cases.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 06:58 AM
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I have heard most of them, and most of teh info is a waste of time.

You only need 1 to be real, is all you need to know.

The rest of ufology is just a load of bull. I would never trust info from a policeman so why society say they are trust worthy is beyond me, corrupt planks of wood.

So thread starter does have a point, just like alex jones to the truth movement there are scum in ufology also, playing on peoples insecurities and other things. People like to be played, just look at the media.

Though i disagree on one thing, you do not need to be a literal genius, to tell the truth, remember you only need one case, to be true. If that person was telling the truth and never went to school, its still the truth.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 07:07 AM
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Originally posted by Mindmelding
reply to post by ZombieOctopus
 

Richard Dolan has talked about reptilians lately which makes me think he's mixed in with the coming alien false flag attack and is part of the NWO (whether he knows this or not, he might be in a mind control bubble).


When he endorsed Laura Knight Jadzick's (sp?) book I was a bit worried and actually emailed him. He seems like a really cool guy and his historical perspective is, I think, on the money. For some reason he's convinced by her stuff but isn't allowing that to change his approach to his own writing, in terms of follow-ups to part I of UFOs and the National Security State.

His lectures that are available on Google Video and YouTube are, for my money, exemplary.


Nick Pope is a disinfo agent. You can tell this by the fact that he rambles endlessly about UFO's yet allowed himself to be thrown into a television debate against 911 being an inside job.


Once a spook, always a spook. I asked Dolan about him, they're on the same circuit of conferences and so on. He said their relations are cordial but they clearly disagree on 9/11.

I'm glad you've seen the 9/11 debate. For me it was the clearest possible sign that Pope is a disinfo agent. It is, of course, possible that he's sincere about the UFO thing but was put onto that panel by his erstwhile masters with a specific brief. I don't know. But I do know I've never really trusted him.

I don't think you should dismiss Dolan's work because of his opinion about reptilians. I've been reading some Icke lately to see if there's anything that convinces me (and there isn't) but otoh I can't completely rule it out, either. I assign it a pretty low probability, though.


Stanton Friedman has nice prose and usually says smart stuff. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.


I have to agree with the poster who finds him sleazy, although his work seems to be ok. There's just a streak of self-aggrandizement about him that I don't like. He always seems to get referred to as "nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman" rather than "UFO researcher Stanton Friedman". And I'd like to have seen the Larry King thing where he's constantly holding up his book. Ewww.


I personally think that the situation is this: there is no government contact with ET's. They don't want anything to do with the psychopathocracy, they being the aliens. They come here and seek contact either with normal people who don't display fear or with more spiritual and in touch people for more advanced contacts and to give advice.


You do realise this is very, very close to Steven Greer's position, don't you? His position is that any threatening encounters with ETs are hoaxes perpetrated by TPTB.

And "psychopathocracy" - what a great word! Thank you for that, I shall be using it as the opportunity arises. Wicked.

If you haven't yet seen Capturing The Light (to date my very favourite UFO documentary ever) then I think you'd really, really like it. It's possible to go to one of those naughty file-sharing torrent sites and find it. WELL worth the effort.

As much as I'd like to believe that the only real ETs are good ETs, I'm not at all sure about that. There's quite a lot of evidence (for example, the terrorisation of remote areas of Brazil in the '70s mentioned by Vallee in one of his books, and other scattered things) that I don't think the government can have perpetrated. I'd love to believe that good has triumphed in the greater galaxy and we're being quarantined as Greer asserts, but it seems too good to be true to me.

There's also the interesting tidbit that Aleister Crowley psychically contacted a being which he referred to as "Lam", which he sketched, and it looks just like a grey. But this was long before any of that stuff was heard of. And of course, his initiate Jack Parsons (head of the California branch of the occult society the Ordo Templi Orientis (the order of the eastern, or rising, temple) was a stellar (no pun intended) member of the JPL in its early days.


Consider looking for truth in the new age sources, although I wager that there's tons of bs there too. Perhaps the best place to find the truth about UFO's is to meditate on them, in a remote location at night. They will come to you...


There is clearly a psychic aspect to the phenomenon which many buffs on here seem to want to wish away. The trouble is there's no ready way to separate the good stuff from the BS. And, for example, one of the first to point this out was John Keel, who seemed to be unlucky enough to be drawn into that hopelessly confusing world to his detriment.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 07:52 AM
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Originally posted by Arbitrageur
I have to say I'm still looking for ANY proof that UFOs are extraterrestrial, so far I haven't found it.


I think you're framing the question incorrectly here.

First, there's the all-too-common misuse of the word "proof". There are two kinds of proof: mathematical and legal. The mathematical kind is basically using logic to determine whether a given proposition can be deduced from a given starting point and obey the rules of a closed system. The legal kind is based on no more than swaying people's opinion,

I would say that "evidence" is a better word in your sentence.

Now I think that there's actually plenty of evidence about, and for me at least, the Socorro sighting is particularly convincing. You have a policeman as a witness, some independent testimony concerning lights in the sky around the same time, and most importantly physical evidence which Hynek himself came to assess IIRC. This consisted of four circular depressions in closely-packed desert soil that could only have been produced by pressure measured in the tons. These four marks were arranged in an unequal quadrilateral the diagonals of which crossed at right angles to each other.

Attempts to link this to testing of unconventional aircraft are, for me, very unconvincing.

What does that leave?

I watched the Carl Sagan video. Now he's an interesting guy, and as you say, pretty smart. However, I'd previously reached the conclusion that he was basically an insider who was publicly debunking the issue. Certainly his co-panelist was introduced as having CIA connections, so I'm happy to disregard anything he said. Love the eyepatch, though. And it's fine for an astronmer - it must make it easier to look through an eyepiece! Plus it makes him look rather piratical, arrr me hearties.

Now examining the argument in the video. The narrative mentions "God's quarantine", the speed of light. Sorry, but I have never believed that nonsense. Did you know that when cars were first introduced there had to be a man walking in front of them with a red flag? I find it hard to believe that the Universe is built like that. This, however, is merely the argument from personal incredulity (which we'll come back to later) and says little about anything other than my personal beliefs.

However, I'd point out that we've been doing halfway sensible science for only the tiniest time and to assume that the speed of light cannot ever be broken is, to me, unsafe. I'm happy to put it alongside the idea that steam trains would kill anybody because at over 30mph the air would be sucked out of your lungs.

Now Sagan is a big, big fan (or so it would seem from his public pronouncements) of the fallacy of personal incredulity. Witness the number of people happy to quote his saying "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof/evidence". (I've seen both attributed to him: I'd like to think he originally said evidence for reasons mentioned earlier in the post.)

This is clearly a restatement of the argument of personal incredulity, and Sagan's assessment of the situation in the video is based entirely on personal incredulity, rather than logic or evidence. He simply cannot believe that lots of alien civilisations are visiting us.

Now back in the seventies I read the rather wonderful Operation Trojan Horse by John Keel, which heavily influenced my approach to the subject. One of his main arguments that UFOs and their occupants are not what they seem is the sheer variety of craft and creatures that people claim to have seen. I was swayed by that for a long time. But as time wore on there seemed to be more and more evidence that the universe is actually teeming with life: and there's evidence that UFO sightings go back thousands of years. I wish I could find a link to a collection of mediaeval paintings all of which feature, quite blatantly, UFOs just like the ones we see.

If there are thousands, even millions of civilisations out there that are interested in what's going on elsewhere in the galaxy, it would only take a small proportion to turn up here to make quite a splash, even if they were furtive in what they were doing. We can, I think, safely remove the assumption that travel times would have to be measured in decades.

I do think that Sagan has a point about many people finding ETs a substitute for God. But he characterises everyone who thinks at least some UFOs are extraterrestrial in nature as being desperate people who want the ETs to step in and sort us out. That's clearly an unfair generalisation and I'm sure there are plenty of people like myself who are simply convinced that something is going on and would like very much to know what that something is.

I was leafing through one of his books in a bookstore one day (it might even have been Demon-Haunted World and there was something in it that really made me sit up. Damned if I can remember what it was, but it was just hugely out of place and made me think, ok, that guy definitely knows more than he's saying.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 08:07 AM
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reply to post by internos
 


Thanks for the applause, coming from yourself, that's very cool.

One other thing about Hynek. In Vallee's Forbidden Science (lost my copy, dammit), somewhere, there's an interesting incident where Hynek "accidentally" loses one of a pair of stereo images that caught a UFO quite by chance. I think it was a plane doing some surveying or something... my memory's thin on this, frankly. But obviously it would mean that an accurate estimate of the thing's size could have been made. But just the one image... much, much less than half the value of two images.

The impression I got was that Hynek, as Vallee saw it (and they were together on Blue Book for a long time), was occasionally pressured to hide or lose the best bits of evidence. And of course he did come out with the "swamp gas" nonsense on one very high-profile case.

So... not exactly a charlatan, but not quite trustworthy either IMO.

[edit on 17-8-2009 by rich23]



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