In America, Crazy Is a Preexisting Condition

In America, Crazy Is a Preexisting Condition

www.washingtonpost.com

In Michigan, meanwhile, the indelible image was of the father who wheeled his handicapped adult son up to Rep. John Dingell and bellowed that "under the Obama health-care plan, which you support, this man would be given no care whatsoever." He pressed his case further on Fox News.

In New Hampshire, outside a building where Obama spoke, cameras trained on the pistol strapped to the leg of libertarian William Kostric. He then explained on CNN why the "tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of tyrants and patriots."

It was interesting to hear a BBC reporter on

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I find this article very interesting because it shows how fear mongering and generated conspiracies are used to frighten people into believing things that are not true, only to further their own agenda. This article gives example from our history of these tactics being used over and over.

This happens on all sides, usually originating from the extremes and it is very detrimental to civilized discussion.

I am not opposed to people going to town hall meetings and voicing their opinions, it should be allowed from all sides to express their view on these issues. But what some of these people are doing in these town halls is completely unacceptable. They are attempting to derail open discussion. They say they want answers but it seems to have more to do with them talking/venting or just attempting to disrupt the meetings than getting any answers. Case in point, the women who asked her question and then said she didnt even remember what the answer was.

They are also evoking social psychology in order to create mob mentality and group think. To make it appear as though they are the majority in these events. I could show up to one of these events and get up and scream a bunch of lies to further my stance and i'm sure i could get applause and recognition from the crowd even if none of what i said was true.

The loudest person is not necessarily the one who is right.

I also think this is very relevant for a conspiracy website, because we can see that people have claimed all sorts of hidden agendas and conspiracies in the past that have turned out to be false. So it really makes you question how much faith you should put in many of the conspiracies on this site, when history has shown that there are many conspiracies that are devised that turn out to be completely false.

I am prepared to be attacked

www.washingtonpost.com
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"What you are doing, is sentencing our families to death"




People are, for the most part, inherently stupid. They eat up whatever propaganda they are fed by people they agree with, and then get TV spots on Fox News to regurgitate said propaganda. Apparently he doesn't understand that if he has private insurance, his plan won't change at all.

I'm no fan of this particular brand of health care reform, but when people come out with ridiculous claims like this, it belittles all the opposition to this health care plan. For all we know, he could be a democrat plant put in place to make republicans seem like idiots.

reply to post by iamcamouflage


No attack brother ATS'er, but have you read the bill? I have made a pledge not to discuss issues about the bill with people who have not read it. It would be a waste of time. I would recommend reading it or visiting the ATS threads that have broken it down.

Please, by all means, make up your own mind, but do it in an informed fashion.

Mike

America in general is stupid. Look at our educational scores vs. other countries. Read ATS for about fifteen minutes. Watch television "news". Is it any wonder that borderline retarded people are showing up at these town hall meetings and making such a fuss, I mean look who their leaders are (I'm still waiting for Palin's death squads to show up) The Republicans and the right in general have made their livings off of these people. But it's to be expected when you destroy education, intellectual culture and spend all your money on defense and Israel.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by CuriousSkeptic]

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic
America in general is stupid. Look at our educational scores vs. other countries. Read ATS for about fifteen minutes. Watch television "news". Is it any wonder that borderline retarded people are showing up at these town hall meetings and making such a fuss, I mean look who their leaders are (I'm still waiting for Palin's death squads to show up) The Republicans and the right in general have made their livings off of these people. But it's to be expected when you destroy education, intellectual culture and spend all your money on defense and Israel.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by CuriousSkeptic]

This is why I only debate with people who have read the bill. It would be pointless, otherwise.

Deny Ignorance

Originally posted by mikerussellus

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic
America in general is stupid. Look at our educational scores vs. other countries. Read ATS for about fifteen minutes. Watch television "news". Is it any wonder that borderline retarded people are showing up at these town hall meetings and making such a fuss, I mean look who their leaders are (I'm still waiting for Palin's death squads to show up) The Republicans and the right in general have made their livings off of these people. But it's to be expected when you destroy education, intellectual culture and spend all your money on defense and Israel.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by CuriousSkeptic]

This is why I only debate with people who have read the bill. It would be pointless, otherwise.

Deny Ignorance

I've read the bill as well, although I'm confused which one is which now. Even though I usually disagree with you, you usually know what you're talking about Mike.

reply to post by mikerussellus


Are you talking about the actual bill or the one that was made up? I know that some blogger made up some stuff and posted it online and someone else (I am not sure if it was you or not) posted it on ATS.

reply to post by CuriousSkeptic


Actually I'm impressed. I would really like to debate the bill with someone who has read it. HR3200 has become a buzz word but it's been rare that someone has read the darn thing.

Case in point, the Healthcare Commissioner. Who is this position appointed by? The president? Congress? Is this a term served or an appointment for life?

If you have any issues with it brought about by the "opposition" I would like to take the oppourtunity to answer.

reply to post by mikerussellus


Believe it or not I'm on the fence about the bill and this whole thing. I just think people's over-reactions to this whole thing and the mind-boggling idiocy of the opposition and the right wing in the last few months has been appalling. I got no issue with people who have articulate complaints or issues. I also am not sure who I'd rather have controlling my destiny with a hand on the cord. Private corporate enterprise or the US Government. To paraphrase Patton, if I'm surround with the American Health Industry on one side and the US government on the other, I'd attack in both directions.

On the bill itself, I'm generally pro with the exception of a couple of frightening vague paragraphs and that once past the deadline you can no longer have private insurance. I'm not an expert on the subject (my talents lie in history and analysis, not law) I'm learning towards Medicare being expands into this health care plan while allowing private insurance companies to compete against the government health care. The two competing against each other would hopefully generate the best situation for everyone. Of course this is America where the government can # up a cup of coffee and then American corporate business will try to sell it to you for 100 times its worth.


[edit on 15-8-2009 by CuriousSkeptic]

reply to post by CuriousSkeptic


My reply to that has been, "In private insurance, they may not pay for the treatment. In government care, they will deny it."

Over exaggeration granted, but I say this to illustrate the point.

Worst case; on one side they say we want the money!!

On the other, they say, "NEXT!"

Originally posted by mikerussellus
reply to post by iamcamouflage

 

No attack brother ATS'er, but have you read the bill? I have made a pledge not to discuss issues about the bill with people who have not read it. It would be a waste of time. I would recommend reading it or visiting the ATS threads that have broken it down.

Please, by all means, make up your own mind, but do it in an informed fashion.

Mike

I will admit I have not read the entire 1000+ pages of this bill. I have seen some of the breakdowns and while I dont agree with everything in it, I cant remember any time when I have ever agreed with everything contained in a piece of legislation.

But what I will say is that the "debate" that is being presented by these "yellers" is almost completely unfounded. The people who are the loudest and most outspoken against the health care proposal are by far the most ignorant as to whats contained within and even what the current system entitles or disenfranchise them from.

My point with posting this article was to show that lies are, and have always been created in order to influence the LCD, which can result in the movement of a sometimes faulty agenda. And the way by which this opposition is going about getting their message out is flawed, ignorant and discourages honest, open debate on the issues.

If you opposed to something, get your facts straight, get educated and present your case. Standing up and yelling that you dont want America to turn into Russia, is not the basis for an intelligent argument.

If you do not wish to discuss this issue with me because I have not read it, in its entirety, I understand.

I fully agree with your last statement, that be entitled to your own opinion but do so in an informed fashion. I am bothered by public flaming of people by ignorant, ill-informed people.

Regards and I thank you for this civil discussion. Although this thread will probably turn into something very ugly, once the "yellers" infect it.

reply to post by iamcamouflage


Where you and I may disagree is with some of the 'yellers'. I believe they have read the bill. Now granted, I (personally) have debunked some of what is in the bill (see past threads about the bill that I have read, reported and debunked. I am a conservative, but an honest one) and it made me sick agreeing with parts of it.

But while there may be points that are good, (I honestly don't think the bill was written by Satan and meant to destroy mankind, and cause kittens to die. . )there are many points in the bill that are just plain power-hungry stupid.

It is some of those points that have caused a "pucker-factor" in most democratic politicians. Because whether you agree or disagree, they did read the bill. And it put them one up on many of these politicicans.

I think most of these people going to town hall meetings learned how to debate from the following show.

how to debate at town hall meetings

reply to post by JBA2848






I want to see Arlen Spector, a white-trash broad who will show her t#ts and an angry boyfriend who thinks Spector is her doctor.

Pay-per-view would cover the deficit created by the bill!!

As bad as the counter-productive style of disruption is, one can look upon it as a form of hyperbole.

Sure, some people are going to be ignorant enough to believe some of the anti bill propaganda, but even the wildest of exaggerations prove the point that there exist some very questionable things about the "change" we are receiving.

Instead of explaining the more legitimately questionable parts of the bill, they remain focused primarily on the LeftVsRight war and who is feeding the disinformational campaigns, rather than looking for the root causes of the fears. People don't usually just believe things they hear, there has the be the right conditions to put their minds into a more receptive state before outrageous lies will be accepted as truths.

I suppose that then just brings us back around to the ignorance of people, but if they were so easily inclined to believe in things like death-panels, why would it be so difficult to assuage their fears?

This explains why liberals want socialized healthcare, they can't get private healthcare because of their "preexisting condition" (craziness)

(It's a joke)

reply to post by mikerussellus


In some cases yes, the reader of the bill may be more informed than members of congress. I have seen some of the data regarding how much of what they sign they actually read and its disturbing that they yada, yada, yada and then sign legislation that can have sweeping consequences.

I will say that my disagreement with this bill has to do with the fact they are not really reforming healthcare, they are merely tweaking portions to ensure that more people are covered. But this still leaves the insurance companies in the mix and I feel like they are a big part of the problem. Private companies have a bottom line and share holders, who these companies are begotten to. This creates a system where they have to by law, weigh the pros and cons of providing and/or denying treatment if it affects their profits(and it does).

I tend to think that if we are going the way of changing healtcare to some universal coverage, we go all the way. Single payer system, no strings, no insurance coverage. Simply, you get hurt/sick, you go to doctor, you get treatment, no charge.

People really bash the Canadian health care system here in the states but you will be hard pressed to find many Canadians that will bash it. They are happy with the coverage. There are always people who will use one example of someone who had to wait some time for care and passed away. But i can assure you that this happens all the time here in the states. Not to mention I love how so many say you will be waiting months for care, as if we have immediate surgeries and care in this country. The only time you are rushed right into surgery in this country, is if it is life or death. I personally know many people here in the states with "good" insurance that they pay for and they are forced to wait for most surgeries and treatments. They usually schedule most procedures at least a few weeks to a couple months down the road unless its a necessity to have it done quickly.

A friend of mine had his kidney stone surgery re-scheduled 3 times, he had to wait about 3 months in pain before treatment. My mom needed surgery on her hand, they scheduled it 2 months in the future.

The people in this country who think our healthcare system is perfect, are either paying out the butt for top of the line coverage or they have not had a serious medical condition that has forced them to have to deal with insurance coverage.

I can testify first hand as to the problems with the current system. I have employer provided health care, although I have to pay $120 a month to have this coverage. I went on the Blue Cross/Blue Shield website and found a better plan than i currently have for a much better price, but, i'm not eligible because my employer provides me with healthcare(again, they "provide" me with something i have to pay for). I am forced to use my company health care even though its not the best deal. I cannot obtain private insurance, unless my employer does not provide me with a group rate.

Another example, this insurance i have is really terrible. Its called SRC and I get denied or challenged for almost every claim I make. I will go to the doctor or dentist, they will say i'm covered for that doctor, i will get treatment and then a few months later they will send me a notice that they will not be covering a certain service because it was more than they allot for that service. I dont know this information until AFTER the service is rendered , leaving me stuck with the difference.

Last example, in 2005 I broke my jaw playing backyard football, knocked me out cold. While unconscious my someone called an ambulance, i didnt need it, i was conscious and fine(except for the broken jaw) within minutes. Nonetheless I was basically forced to ride a mile down the road in the ambulance. This cost $1000, my insurance company would not cover the cost of this because they said I the use of an ambulance had not been pre-approved. I was unconscious!! Someone else called for it and if I had been in real need of an ambulance(lets say dying on the spot) am I to wait on the phone with my insurance company to get approval to call an ambulance?

Our system is flawed and I dont agree with the bill as written but I think that having this discussion is one step in the right direction. In Industrialized nations health care should be a right not a privilege reserved for the rich and powerful.

What about they cut 50% of the military budget and use this money to cover the uninssured? No tax increase, no nothing, people covered, no big legislation, no trouble.

Bring back the troops from Iraq and Afghanistan right now.

But of course, it's too simple and the militaro-industrial complex want their money. And the government want total control over everyone, all the time.

[edit on 16-8-2009 by Vitchilo]