Are you really that UPSET about Slavery?

Originally posted by EMPIRE
More idiocy.

What a great contibution to the discussion. Lets all put our hands together for this great post.

The question is "Are you really that upset about slavery?"
When my family owned slaves, they got into trouble when the educated them. My family can't help but teach. I still know the decendents of the people they owned. Some of them are actually cousins (broadly related). I am very glad that slavery has been greatly reduced in the world (physical ownership). I know that as long as there are people there will be slaves somewhere and I would hope that people will one day recognize that it is dehumanizing to all parties involved. I would have thought more ATSers would have been against the slavery going on today (Chad, Eastern Europe, Europe, Asia, America - yes America - there are Eastern European women and children among others "kidnapped teens" that are used as whores in America and are killed if they try and escape) but the posts lead me to think otherwise.

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker

Originally posted by EMPIRE
More idiocy.

What a great contibution to the discussion. Lets all put our hands together for this great post.

Unlike you I've made logical contributions to the thread. However, you knew your post was idiocy when you posted it which is why you said, "I'll probably get flammed for saying this but oh well."

The thing is you weren't flamed for it, I simply chose to call it for what it was and now the only thing you can do is fail at sarcasm and wit.

Keep up the good work.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Unlike you I've made logical contributions to the thread. However, you knew your post was idiocy when you posted it which is why you said, "I'll probably get flammed for saying this but oh

I said that expecting a reply such as yours and lo and behold, your post appeared. Maybe you could elaborate as to exactly where my statement is untrue or off base. The descendants of slaves are free citizens of the greatest nation in the world. They have also never been slaves. Can you say the Africans have the same opportunities as black Americans? So please tell me were i'm wrong.

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker

I said that expecting a reply such as yours and lo and behold, your post appeared.

No my friend, you've got it wrong. You were expecting someone to flame you but I've done no such thing. I'm questioning the words contained in your posts, I'm not attacking you. In my opinion your post. not you, is idiocy and full of misconceptions. Hopefully this will clear it up for you.

Maybe you could elaborate as to exactly where my statement is untrue or off base.

I will, just keep reading.

The descendants of slaves are free citizens of the greatest nation in the world.

This would depend on your definition of "free" and it is your opinion that this is the greatest nation in the world.

They have also never been slaves.

Having never been slaves does not mean they have not experienced other hardships in the form of Jim Crow and segregation laws, denial of the right to vote, housing discrimination, racial profiling and other forms of institutional racism and deviance. How many years removed are we from the 60's? You know the time when two African American civil rights leaders were killed? You know...the time when high pressure water hoses and police dogs were used on unarmed citizens simply because they wanted to vote or ride the bus? Do you think all those people are dead?

Can you say the Africans have the same opportunities as black Americans?

No, they don't have the same opportunities. Do you know why they don't have the same opportunities? Does the fact that colonialism helped ruin the continent or how the WCB and IMF helped ruin the continent have anything to do with it?

So please tell me were i'm wrong.

No problem.

Slavery, in the long run, has had a postive effect for blacks.

Slavery, in the long run, has had negative effect for blacks. One such example is how blacks have no infrastructure outside of this country to rely on. I see people mentioning the Irish, or mentioning the Chinese, but these groups of people have countries and infrastructures they can rely on who will accept them as their own. What do blacks have? Where can blacks go? Most Chinese Americans can say, "I'm from this part of China" or "My ancestors are from that part of China", but can most African Americans say "My ancestors are from that part of Africa" or "I'm from this part of Africa"?

This is one example, and I'll glady provide you with more if you address this one.

The slaves decendents now live in one of the greatest nations in the world and have oppertunities those who were left in africa will never have.

I've addressed this, however can you address the reasons why those in Africa will never have the same opportunities?

Hard price to pay, but then again those alive today did not pay it themselves, their ancestors did.

I've addressed this, and those alive today have experienced their share of hardships and still do.



[edit on 28-8-2009 by EMPIRE]

Originally posted by EMPIRE
No my friend, you've got it wrong. You were expecting someone to flame you but I've done no such thing. I'm questioning the words contained in your posts, I'm not attacking you.

I don't buy it my friend. From reading your posts I can tell you have a chip on your shoulder reguarding this subject matter.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
This would depend on your definition of "free" and it is your opinion that this is the greatest nation in the world.

This statement is idiocy. Definite chip on shoulder.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Having never been slaves does not mean they have not experienced other hardships in the form of Jim Crow and segregation laws, denial of the right to vote, housing discrimination, racial profiling and other forms of institutional racism and deviance. How many years removed are we from the 60's? You know the time when two African American civil rights leaders were killed? You know...the time when high pressure water hoses and police dogs were used on unarmed citizens simply because they wanted to vote or ride the bus? Do you think all those people are dead?

Was this thread created to discuss slavery or am I mistaken. Here you are going on about segregation and racial profiling when this threads subject is slavery, not civil rights. As for the 60s, none of those people were ever slaves and thats fact. Yes they suffered all the injustices you mentioned but they were never slaves.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
No, they don't have the same opportunities. Do you know why they don't have the same opportunities? Does the fact that colonialism helped ruin the continent or how the WCB and IMF helped ruin the continent have anything to do with it?

Once again you are drawing subjects into a discussion on slavery, that while related, have no bearing on the subject matter of this thread.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Slavery, in the long run, has had negative effect for blacks. One such example is how blacks have no infrastructure outside of this country to rely on. I see people mentioning the Irish, or mentioning the Chinese, but these groups of people have countries and infrastructures they can rely on who will accept them as their own. What do blacks have? Where can blacks go? Most Chinese Americans can say, "I'm from this part of China" or "My ancestors are from that part of China", but can most African Americans say "My ancestors are from that part of Africa" or "I'm from this part of Africa"?

This is complete gobblygook. I'm a white Canadian and have no foreign infrastructure to fall back on. Even most white americans have no relation to the family that stayed behind in europe.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
I've addressed this, and those alive today have experienced their share of hardships and still do.

They still have never been slaves no matter what hardships they have endured. Your are failing to prove my "misconceptions". You do remmember we are discussing slavery and not civil rights right?

Originally posted by EMPIRE
In my opinion your post. not you, is idiocy and full of misconceptions. Hopefully this will clear it up for you.

You have utterly failed to point out your precieved misconceptions in my statement, or to prove they are false in any way. You choose to draw the entire history of blacks in america into a discussion on slavery. Sorry to tell you this but the 60's and the events that happend have no place in a discussion on slavery. You have cleared nothing up and have actually "muddied the water" by drawing events unrelated to slavery into this discussion.

I don't buy it my friend. From reading your posts I can tell you have a chip on your shoulder reguarding this subject matter.

What you buy or don’t buy is of no concern to me. You are not a behavioral psychologist and know nothing about me to know when, and if, I have a chip on my shoulder. You’re making these false claims because you feel guilty and inadequate about your post. What’s next? You’re going to say I’m an “angry black man”? You’re going to make the claim without knowing what race or gender I am aren’t you?

This statement is idiocy. Definite chip on shoulder.

No, the statement is 100% logical as the definition of “free” has different meanings to different people. Some may say you aren’t free because you work a 9-5. Some may say you aren’t free because of the Patriot Act and Homeland Security. On the flipside, some may say you are free because you have the right to vote or no longer have to sit at the back of the bus. In regards to the greatest nation on the globe, again this is a matter of opinion as I’m sure Russians, Chinese and Japanese all feel their country is the greatest on the planet.

Was this thread created to discuss slavery or am I mistaken. Here you are going on about segregation and racial profiling when this threads subject is slavery, not civil rights. As for the 60s, none of those people were ever slaves and thats fact. Yes they suffered all the injustices you mentioned but they were never slaves.

I wouldn’t say the thread was started to discuss slavery, but to discuss if people were upset about slavery and to remove the burden that the OP may have. Do you understand causation and correlation? If so, you would know I’m talking about segregation and racial profiling because they are by-products of slavery which make them relevant to this topic. Moreover, you were the one who made the absurd claim that, “Slavery, in the long run, has had a positive effect for blacks.”, yet somehow forget the things I mentioned are negative effects of slavery. If we are going to discuss positives it is only logical to discuss the negative aspects as well. Therefore, it is highly erroneous to assume that because they weren’t slaves that somehow they don’t experience any hardships that resulted from slavery. Again, do you understand correlation and causation?

Once again you are drawing subjects into a discussion on slavery, that while related, have no bearing on the subject matter of this thread.

No, once again you’re projecting, using fallacies, have no understanding about this subject and have forgotten what you’ve typed. Yes they are related and yes they are highly relevant to the subject matter of the thread. You forget that what you quoted was a direct result of you asking, “Can you say the Africans have the same opportunities as black Americans?” What you’re failing to comprehend is if this question is answered with a no, the only logical course of action is to address why not, and the things I mentioned shed light on why this is so and also are the cause or byproduct of slavery.

This is complete gobblygook. I'm a white Canadian and have no foreign infrastructure to fall back on. Even most white americans have no relation to the family that stayed behind in europe.

It’s “gobblygook” to you because you fail to comprehend cogent posts and aren’t too familiar with race relations or sociology. You are a white Canadian and have White Privilege. White Americans who have no connection to their European family still have White Privilege. You can rely on this infrastructure, and do rely on this infrastructure everyday. You can go to Canada, fit right in and it will be as if you have never left because not too much cultural change would have occurred. Can the same be said for African Americans going to Africa?

They still have never been slaves no matter what hardships they have endured. Your are failing to prove my "misconceptions". You do remmember we are discussing slavery and not civil rights right?

I’ve addressed this. Having never been slaves does not mean because they weren’t slaves, they can’t be upset by it. The reason this is so is because everything I mentioned is directly, not indirectly, linked to slavery.

You have utterly failed to point out your precieved misconceptions in my statement, or to prove they are false in any way. You choose to draw the entire history of blacks in america into a discussion on slavery. Sorry to tell you this but the 60's and the events that happend have no place in a discussion on slavery. You have cleared nothing up and have actually "muddied the water" by drawing events unrelated to slavery into this discussion.

Due to your lack of knowledge, you think I’ve failed, but rest assured those with an open mind, and very basic cognitive skills, can and do understand my premise. Your statements are false, and it pains me to see that a board devoted to growth and understanding has members that are either “blind racists” or lack real world experiences outside of a 25 mile radius.

No, I did not choose to draw the entire history of African Americans into this discussion, as that would be millions of pages long, so please refrain from sarcasm as it does nothing to help your case. As previously stated, what happened in the 60’s is a by-product of slavery and highly relevant to the topic even though those in the 60’s may not have experienced physical slavery. If waters have been muddled, they have muddled by your arrogance, false accusations, lack of knowledge, inept use of sarcasm, bait tactics, avoidance of questions, bottle spinning, word-jugglery, fallacies and unwillingness to step outside of your comfort zone.

Keep up the good work!


[edit on 28-8-2009 by EMPIRE]

reply to post by Doctor G


I gave you a star for pointing it out.. slavery was never about being black "tho yes" in the USA it means a lot to the people who live there and my own history but at the same time you cant go round shouting ALL WHITES HATE BLACKS because thats just silly... this is the year 2009...

We are meant to LEARN from our past MISTAKES and try to fix them.. and you pointed out something very important

We still have slaves now.. sex trade and a load of other ways and means to "use" someone because.. of the way we live

the very fact you use money is a "slave"

one thing people kinda for get is .. we use to be the LION in the jungle

people just want to be SHEEP

lazy not bothered dont care lifes just good if him alright jack fu blah blah

no wonder the world is going tits up... but i gave you a star because you made a great point and EDUCATION is the KEY

reply to post by EMPIRE


EMPIRE i can say you do make very valid points here.. but some people who are yes dare i say WHITE do not get it.. and that has nothing to do with them as a person in that regard, but as you stated and i liked how you was nice in putting it.. EDUCATION

You see people get USED everyday

If you say to someone SLAVE the first thing they THINK is BLACK and rightly so.. and why?

Because the biggest trade of HUMANS as a commodity was black people.

Now my self personally can not stand labels "BLACK WHITE" whatever i find it childish .. But our history as a race.. is somewhat effed up

It all comes down to respect... I respect all people some do get on my tits.. but .. i still respect the view they hold.

Because it makes me a better person for it.

This is the understanding and the real debate. am i upset that people was traded like oil? YES i am.. do i hold a grudge? no i dont..

im just the same as everyone on this rock we call home... evolution of the mind is not the same as evolution of ones BODY

; )

reply to post by FreeSpeaker


I can and do understand your point, but what EMPIRE is saying is valid in that the civil rights movement did in fact come from being a slave..

A slave is a person with NO rights because they are NOTHING they are just like a house hold good thing.

People use to TRADE humans and still do .. dont matter what colour you are my friend MONEY is what they care about and POWER...

Yes black people felt the brunt of it.. but we ALL do now.. this is why we are on ats

MONEY GOD ALIENS WHY WHO WERE WHEN

its all a big LIE.. and thinking a white person is any better than a black person is just STUPID

we know our past ALL of us do .. MISTAKES can be made and why not?

but harping on about in justice is just down right crackers... and the reason why i say that is because the people who print the money you call YOURS do not NEED MONEY they PRINT IT

server / user

money / idiot

get what im saying?

You will never see the people who run the planet on the fortune 500

do you know why?

They OWN it.

Slaves have always been around and still are and the shocking part is

your one of em.

not by choice.. by force and they never even needed to shoot u, they just brain wash u

MKULTRA controlling your brain funny and very very EVIL

Originally posted by EMPIRE
What you buy or don’t buy is of no concern to me. You are not a behavioral psychologist and know nothing about me to know when, and if, I have a chip on my shoulder. You’re making these false claims because you feel guilty and inadequate about your post. What’s next? You’re going to say I’m an “angry black man”? You’re going to make the claim without knowing what race or gender I am aren’t you?

Read your own words, you come across angry. You say i'm making "false claims because you(I) feel guilty and inadequate about your(my) post". Based on the your replies to myself and others, you come across arrogant and dismissive of others contributions here. You seem to think only your opinion matters here, otherwise I see no purpose to your snide remarks. Its my opinion that you have a chip on your shoulder because of that.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
No, the statement is 100% logical as the definition of “free” has different meanings to different people. Some may say you aren’t free because you work a 9-5. Some may say you aren’t free because of the Patriot Act and Homeland Security. On the flipside, some may say you are free because you have the right to vote or no longer have to sit at the back of the bus. In regards to the greatest nation on the globe, again this is a matter of opinion as I’m sure Russians, Chinese and Japanese all feel their country is the greatest on the planet.

I actaully agree with you here. Problem is, as you said, freedom has different meanings to different people, its a matter of perspective in other words. So what makes your perspective correct and mine incorrect?

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Do you understand causation and correlation? If so, you would know I’m talking about segregation and racial profiling because they are by-products of slavery which make them relevant to this topic. Moreover, you were the one who made the absurd claim that, “Slavery, in the long run, has had a positive effect for blacks.”, yet somehow forget the things I mentioned are negative effects of slavery. If we are going to discuss positives it is only logical to discuss the negative aspects as well. Therefore, it is highly erroneous to assume that because they weren’t slaves that somehow they don’t experience any hardships that resulted from slavery. Again, do you understand correlation and causation?

I still stand by my opinion that slavery ended up having a positive effect overall. You agreed black americans have better oppertunities than the people from their ancestoral homeland, and then go on about colonialism as if that invalidates your agreement that black americans have better oppertunitites than africans. I still consider the civil rights issues seperate to the issue of slavery, it is a by-product as you said yourself and is a subject unto itself imo.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
No, once again you’re projecting, using fallacies, have no understanding about this subject and have forgotten what you’ve typed.

Here you go again. Polite and civil as always. You sure you don't have that chip on your shoulder?

Originally posted by EMPIRE
It’s “gobblygook” to you because you fail to comprehend cogent posts and aren’t too familiar with race relations or sociology.

Again with the insults and arrogance. Maybe you have that chip on your shoulder from having a big head.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
You are a white Canadian and have White Privilege. White Americans who have no connection to their European family still have White Privilege. You can rely on this infrastructure, and do rely on this infrastructure everyday. You can go to Canada, fit right in and it will be as if you have never left because not too much cultural change would have occurred. Can the same be said for African Americans going to Africa?

Again, gobblygook. Hate to tell you this but in Canada, we don't have a problem with black people, or asian people, or mexican poeple. I imagine black americans would have no problem being accepted in Canada. We don't have a reputation for racial tollerance for nothing. As for white privilage, I find that idea laughable. I have no more privilage than any other Canadian no matter what race. Fact is in Canada, minorities have more privileges than white people.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Due to your lack of knowledge, you think I’ve failed, but rest assured those with an open mind, and very basic cognitive skills, can and do understand my premise. Your statements are false, and it pains me to see that a board devoted to growth and understanding has members that are either “blind racists” or lack real world experiences outside of a 25 mile radius.

I think you have well established your arrogance and intollerance by this point. You have yet to prove any statement I have made is false and for someone who bemoans that a board devoted to growth and understanding has members that are "blind racists" or "lack world experience", you are by far the ruddest, most intolerent, dismissive and conceted poster I have ever come across on any board.

reply to post by FreeSpeaker

Read your own words, you come across angry. You say i'm making "false claims because you(I) feel guilty and inadequate about your(my) post"…Its my opinion that you have a chip on your shoulder because of that.

Am I coming across as angry or is it your opinion that I’m coming across as angry? You should be more consistent when you make these claims, friend. My question to you is how does a person who is angry, or have a chip on their shoulder, actually act? You don’t know me, have shown you aren’t a person familiar with behavioral issues (or how to identify them) so can I really expect you to answer the question and actually provide proof to validate your assessment? No. Contrary to your opinion or belief, I do not have the opinion that my opinion is the only one that matters here. However, I know for a fact your opinion lacks merit, and this is what you have a problem with—someone pointing it out.

I actaully agree with you here. Problem is, as you said, freedom has different meanings to different people, its a matter of perspective in other words. So what makes your perspective correct and mine incorrect?

In this thread, I don’t recall giving my personal opinion about freedom. In fact, if I recall correctly, I said, “This would depend on your definition of "free" and it is your opinion that this is the greatest nation in the world.” You then replied with, “This statement is idiocy. Definite chip on shoulder.” It was never an issue of me being right or you being wrong, but a matter of perspective. However, due to your initial response which showed anger and hostility, you didn’t consider the context of the statement and falsely accused me.

I still stand by my opinion that slavery ended up having a positive effect overall. You agreed black americans have better oppertunities than the people from their ancestoral homeland,.. I still consider the civil rights issues seperate to the issue of slavery, it is a by-product as you said yourself and is a subject unto itself imo.

You can stand by your opinion all you want, but that does not mean your opinion is supported by any field/studies devoted to understanding human beings and society as a whole. Slavery not only contributed to wiping out entire civilizations, both Native and African, but it also introduced health issues, especially dietary ones that are still present in African Americans to this day. I have not once said Black Americans don’t have it better then those in Africa. However, what I’m saying is those that are in a better position are not in a better position simply because of slavery and being in America, rather, these are in a better position because of the damage slavery caused to Africa, the damage it still causes today, and institutions such as the IMF and World Bank.

Here you go again. Polite and civil as always. You sure you don't have that chip on your shoulder?

No, I’m being quite honest. I’m giving you an assessment based on critical analysis of your statements, your inability to articulate your beliefs in a precise and cogent manner and the fact that you’re actually doing, and continue to do, exactly what I said you were doing.

Again with the insults and arrogance. Maybe you have that chip on your shoulder from having a big head.

See above. You knew someone was going to reply, but the reply you anticipated has not come, and if it does come, it will not come from me. You are not being insulted, I gain nothing by personally attacking you nor am I showing arrogance. You say something is “gobblygook”, and yet when I tell you why it is gobblygook to yourself, you confuse it with being insulted. What I have done is questioned your statements, opinions, logic and provided evidence to support my claim that you’re off the mark in this area.

Again, gobblygook. Hate to tell you this but in Canada, we don't have a problem with black people, or asian people, or mexican poeple.

Again, it’s “gobblygook” to you because you fail to comprehend cogent posts and aren’t too familiar with race relations or sociology. I, EMPIRE, never said Canada had a “problem” with Blacks, Asians or Mexicans and never introduced it as an issue, and your mentioning of it has nothing to do with what I said. However, I hate to tell you this, and only because it is true and not because I’m proving you wrong, but racism in Canada is present—therefore a problem. I have several links I can post to support this claim, and if it is within the rules of ATS to post them I will.

I imagine black americans would have no problem being accepted in Canada. We don't have a reputation for racial tollerance for nothing. As for white privilage, I find that idea laughable. I have no more privilage than any other Canadian no matter what race. Fact is in Canada, minorities have more privileges than white people.

See above, and concerning White Privilege, you can Google “White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack” by Peggy McIntosh, find the book “White Privilege” by Paula S. Rothenberg [ISBN-10: 1-4292-0660-8], Google the name “Tim Wise” or simply Google “White Privilege”.

I think you have well established your arrogance and intollerance by this point. You have yet to prove any statement I have made is false and…you are by far the ruddest, most intolerent, dismissive and conceted poster I have ever come across on any board.

The OP can understand my perspective, and after reading the last two posts by the OP, I believe he understands what exactly is going on with this world, not just Blacks, Whites, Asians, etc. You are entitled to your opinions, but your assessment is way off and almost fanatical. Knowing this to be true, I will not give much attention to this last piece as doing so will only create an outlet for your projection. What I will do, however, is reiterate or rephrase some of the questions asked:

Do you understand correlation and causation?

Do African Americans have an infrastructure outside of this country, governed by Africans or African Americans, that can be utilized to achieve social mobility? If so where is this place and how does one utilize this infrastructure?

Do you know why Africans don't have the same opportunities? Does the fact that colonialism helped ruin the continent, or how the WCB and IMF helped ruin the continent have anything to do with it?