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I am 23, an American Citizen with government run health care.

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posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by Woland
Do you have your own security team or would you go to the police if you'd had your car stolen or house burgled?

If it's the latter, haven't you ever heard personal responsibility? Perhaps, you shouldn't have things that are worth stealing.

Using the tax dollars of people that can afford security teams? Shame on you.


Strawman argument, but for the sake of explaining personal responsibility to you...

I do not own a car, I use public transportation or a bicycle, it reduces my personal expenses & is better for the planet.

I do have a home security system that I pay an agency for 24/7/365 monitoring for, I also have a very protective, very big dog and firearms.

I tend to cover my own arse that way.

So what does that have to do with health care? My local city government gets my property taxes and local taxes that provide for the cost of my local police anyway, so in effect, even if I was robbed, I have paid for the police efforts that would result from such a violation of my property.




posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:08 AM
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reply to post by Yummy Freelunch
 


there are already programs in place to help the really poor, and the disabled.

Why should those who produce, save, live within their means, plan ahead, in other words, know and live their lives as an example of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY pay for the lack of that same personal responsibility in others?

We have a person who chose to get addicted to pain pills that they got for free through a government program, then used that same program to get off the drugs trying to proclaim that the program is a good thing & there should be more of it???

You think this is GOOD??? You think this is RIGHT???

Or how about another poster who not only defaulted on their mortgage & lost their business & filed bankruptcy, but then, when in the worst financial situation they have ever been in had not one but 2 kids that was financed by taxpayer money??

Again, was this a good thing? Was this an example of being personally responsible???

I am only being completely honest in what I think about what is being said here. My opinions are mine, and I do not apologize for them.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:10 AM
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Originally posted by redhatty
Strawman argument, but for the sake of explaining personal responsibility to you...


Hardly. You complain about free healthcare paid for through tax, because the OP pays less tax than you.

I'm asking if you think that the police force, also paid for by tax, is unfair because you pay less tax than Britney Spears, who has her own security team?


so in effect, even if I was robbed, I have paid for the police efforts that would result from such a violation of my property.


The OP pays taxes, too. You took him to task because your tax dollars shouldn't be used for his health. Well, why should Britney Spears, who pays much, much more tax than you*, have her tax dollars used because someone shot one of your guard dogs and you want them to bring the unknown killer to justice?

*Obviously, I'm assuming here, but if you are a multi-millionaire, I apologise.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by Woland]



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally posted by king9072
Best part, is when you leave, and it costs you nothing. Ever.


You sure about that part, champ?



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally posted by redhatty
reply to post by Yummy Freelunch
 


there are already programs in place to help the really poor, and the disabled.

Why should those who produce, save, live within their means, plan ahead, in other words, know and live their lives as an example of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY pay for the lack of that same personal responsibility in others?

We have a person who chose to get addicted to pain pills that they got for free through a government program, then used that same program to get off the drugs trying to proclaim that the program is a good thing & there should be more of it???

You think this is GOOD??? You think this is RIGHT???

Or how about another poster who not only defaulted on their mortgage & lost their business & filed bankruptcy, but then, when in the worst financial situation they have ever been in had not one but 2 kids that was financed by taxpayer money??

Again, was this a good thing? Was this an example of being personally responsible???

I am only being completely honest in what I think about what is being said here. My opinions are mine, and I do not apologize for them.


The OP did use a program to help the poor. He was in an accident, took pain killers for his pain, became addicted, then needed help to remove this addiction. Id say kudos to him for getting off them.
Addiction DOES occur, it happened to Elizabeth Taylor as well, she became addicted to pain meds..doesnt make him a leech or a scum. But a human being that needed help.
The OP says he DOES work, so that means he DOES pay taxes. Yes, I think it is a good thing.

The other poster is in a hard situation as are many in the country right now. I know several people who have lost their homes and jobs. How does this make him a bad person?
Are you saying that having children made him a bad person? You're kidding, right? So is he supposed to give up bearing his seed because he lost the currency that you seem to hold so dear? I give up.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:22 AM
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Originally posted by Woland
Hardly. You complain about free healthcare paid for through tax, because the OP pays less tax than you.

I'm asking if you think that the police force, also paid for by tax, is unfair because you pay less tax than Britney Spears, who has her own security team?


The OP pays NO TAXES, as is clearly revealed in the course of the thread. So should someone who doesn't save their money and doesn't pay any taxes, be proclaiming the goodness of government run health care for everyone?

They are not paying for their own care, nor will they be paying for anyone elses, so by what right do they come along & proclaim how good an idea it is for the .gov to provide health care using themselves as an example?

What is so wrong with the idea of lower income people having a lower cost/sliding scale clinic to go to rather than top of the line high priced doctors? What do you think is going to happen when it is .gov provided health care?

Even mid-class wage earners will end up with that type of clinic care. Who benefits then?? Not the patient.


The OP pays taxes, too. You took him to task because your tax dollars shouldn't be used for his health. Well, why should Britney Spears, who pays much, much more tax than you*, have her tax dollars used because someone shot one of your guard dogs and you want them to bring the unknown killer to justice?


By your comparison, should Britney Spears have the same security system as I do, since I want her to subsidize mine?

Should a person who CAN afford health care, whether through insurance or by self-pay be forced to have a lowered quality of care because there are people who will not save or will not buy their own coverage?



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:23 AM
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reply to post by Woland
 


Police and such are funded by LOCALITIES.

Let's not leave intelligence at the door when entering a thread.


reply to post by redhatty
 




can't tell you about those costs under self pay.


Expensive. And the "cheap" plans don't usually cover anything beyond what you mentioned. And I noticed dental and vision were absent from the bill.

reply to post by Yummy Freelunch
 




Who are you to judge another human being because of a currency. Money does not make a man.
In a society where there ARE poorer people, someone has to help them, and that someone is YOU, and everyone else. Deal with it.


1. He is entitled to an opinion, and to accuse arrogance with an arrogant tone doesn't help sway favor in your direction...

2. It's not "my job" or "his job" or ANYONES "job" to take of ANYONE except themselves. If you feel inclined to donate to certain organizations that help the poor, by all means do so. I donate to Shriners as well as other small local charities that directly benefit people. But I won't be "strong armed" into "helping" anyone.



If we lived in an Indian tribe, there wouldnt BE poor people


We would all live in huts. Sounds appealing.. but even the poor are not THAT poor in America. The poor here have it easy. Compared to the poor in Africa, South America and Asia they live like kings and queens! .. but your idea is in line with communist beliefs.. we can't all be rich, that's impossible.... but we CAN all be poor.. hey, it's equal.

How long would you last in a stick hut. In northern New York. In the winter.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:28 AM
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reply to post by Yummy Freelunch
 




The OP did use a program to help the poor. He was in an accident, took pain killers for his pain, became addicted, then needed help to remove this addiction. Id say kudos to him for getting off them.


He used government funded programs to abuse a drug then used government funded programs to get off the drugs.

Then had the #@!%$! nerve to bitch about the programs!!!!

Kudos indeed.



Addiction DOES occur


"Accidentally Addicted" .. I like that one.

People fall on hard times. There are many charities and individuals that help those that do. If the government will give me anything I want, what's the goal to work?



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:29 AM
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Originally posted by Yummy Freelunch
The OP did use a program to help the poor. He was in an accident, took pain killers for his pain, became addicted, then needed help to remove this addiction. Id say kudos to him for getting off them.
Addiction DOES occur, it happened to Elizabeth Taylor as well, she became addicted to pain meds..doesnt make him a leech or a scum. But a human being that needed help.
The OP says he DOES work, so that means he DOES pay taxes. Yes, I think it is a good thing.


The OP also stated that he gets a refund every year, that is NOT "paying" taxes, that is having the .gov "borrow" some of your money for a while, you still get it back.

You didn't even touch on my question, if the OP never had medicaid to pay for his pain pills, do you think the OP would have managed to become addicted in the first place?


The other poster is in a hard situation as are many in the country right now. I know several people who have lost their homes and jobs. How does this make him a bad person?
Are you saying that having children made him a bad person? You're kidding, right?


No, I didn't say that it made him a "bad" person, do NOT put words in my mouth.

What it does display is a LACK of the concept of Personal Responsibility. And that applies for anyone who choses to procreate without being able to afford to do so.

Responsible people have children when they are in a stable position, and they save up money for the cost and care of the child. Irresponsible people have kids when they can't afford it.

DO YOU not understand the concept of Personal Responsibility??? If not, then I give up too.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:32 AM
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What is boils down to is that the main problem in this country is the fact that there are alot of people out there who are just plain lazy and expect to be taken care of and things handed to them. If these people would practice personal responsibility, then there would be much less need and the people who truly need assistance would be able to get it. I know far too many people who are collecting because they know their way around the system and it's easier than going out and furthering their education and trying to find a higher paying job. Granted, that is easier said than done these days, but a year ago?

If I had a choice on where my tax dollars went to cover people for medical expenses and such it would be for the 34 year old mom who has been diagnosed with breast cancer after her husband lost his job and she is now unable to work, it would be for the 4 year old in the cancer wing at the children's hospital being treated for leukemia. It would be for alot of people who need it, not those who can't control their urges and destroy their own health and figure it is easier to live off of others or the system, no for the anchor babies and illegals filling up our ER's. These people are stealing from the hardworking tax paying citizens of this country who can not get any help when they truly deserve it. I'm talking hardship and temporary set back, not leeching off the government.

My doctor will work with us on payments knowing I am the only insured member of our household at the moment. Thankfully we don't have much need to go there. Thankfully there are a few doctors out there who are more concerned about treating a human than rushing a patient through just to collect insurance money.

Get off you butts people, those of you who are able to learn and able to work. Take responsibility for yourselves and quit placing blame for your problems on others, ie: doctors give me pills and keeps doing so so now I'm an addict and it's someone else's fault. I smoked, on occasion still do. I sure as heck can't blame it on the mfg who makes them, the store that sells them to me or someone to pay for me for quitting assistance. Yeah, I was addicted, but I also quit. Just like the other person that posted - addicted to painkillers after an accident, threw them away and quit. Well done, taking responsibility for yourself. I am responsible for me, no one else is and the only other person I am responsible for technically is my daughter and my family.

We are not in a real good place right now, but I'm surely not blaming anyone. That's just the way it is. So, we sacrifice things we used to have or do, no big deal, everyone has adjusted just fine. Just have more appreciation for what we do have as well. Those who are making adjustments to their lifestyles to either better them or get out from under being supported by government programs, well done, you are strong people.

And in no way am I slamming anyone who is actually disabled and I do not have a problem with helping anyone who truly needs help because we all need a little bit at some point in our lives.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:33 AM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Woland
 


Police and such are funded by LOCALITIES.

Let's not leave intelligence at the door when entering a thread.


reply to post by redhatty
 




can't tell you about those costs under self pay.


Expensive. And the "cheap" plans don't usually cover anything beyond what you mentioned. And I noticed dental and vision were absent from the bill.

reply to post by Yummy Freelunch
 




Who are you to judge another human being because of a currency. Money does not make a man.
In a society where there ARE poorer people, someone has to help them, and that someone is YOU, and everyone else. Deal with it.


1. He is entitled to an opinion, and to accuse arrogance with an arrogant tone doesn't help sway favor in your direction...

2. It's not "my job" or "his job" or ANYONES "job" to take of ANYONE except themselves. If you feel inclined to donate to certain organizations that help the poor, by all means do so. I donate to Shriners as well as other small local charities that directly benefit people. But I won't be "strong armed" into "helping" anyone.



If we lived in an Indian tribe, there wouldnt BE poor people


We would all live in huts. Sounds appealing.. but even the poor are not THAT poor in America. The poor here have it easy. Compared to the poor in Africa, South America and Asia they live like kings and queens! .. but your idea is in line with communist beliefs.. we can't all be rich, that's impossible.... but we CAN all be poor.. hey, it's equal.

How long would you last in a stick hut. In northern New York. In the winter.




1. He is entitled to an opinion, and to accuse arrogance with an arrogant tone doesn't help sway favor in your direction...
Absolutely, but I didnt take over the whole thread..

2. It's not "my job" or "his job" or ANYONES "job" to take of ANYONE except themselves. If you feel inclined to donate to certain organizations that help the poor, by all means do so. I donate to Shriners as well as other small local charities that directly benefit people. But I won't be "strong armed" into "helping" anyone.

Its everyones "job", we are all human beings floating on this rock together, if you want to turn your back on your fellow life, be my guest, hope you sleep well at night. Charities , who actually gets the money. It all comes down to the buck, doesnt it.

We would all live in huts. Sounds appealing.. but even the poor are not THAT poor in America. The poor here have it easy. Compared to the poor in Africa, South America and Asia they live like kings and queens! .. but your idea is in line with communist beliefs.. we can't all be rich, that's impossible.... but we CAN all be poor.. hey, it's equal.

Actually if all you knew were huts, it wouldnt matter, what mattered is everyone worked together as a unit. They didnt turn their backs on their fellows. They took in other's children, they worked together for food, shelter, fun, and everything else that life is about. It wasnt about the almighty dollar.
Im not saying no one should be rich, what sickens me is treating someone like sh%t because they dont have as much of the "green" as someone else.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck




Addiction DOES occur



"Accidentally Addicted" .. I like that one.


That is actually how most addictions start. Actually look up how addiction works then make comments.



People fall on hard times. There are many charities and individuals that help those that do. If the government will give me anything I want, what's the goal to work?


Just do an experiment for me and try to receive and live solely on those charities.

Posts like this just show that someone just goes by myth and stereotype and doesn't see for themselves the system.

First off, you don't get that much money. It is to HELP, not solely provide for someone. A family of three gets 200$ a month for food. Think you can feed yoruselfs for 200 bucks a month? Many get even less. That is if you have NO income. If you have any income, it deducts for that.

Second of all, you have to actively apply for jobs and take classes, or be in school to get it.

Thirdly, many people are working, they just don't get paid enough to be able to provide for their families.

whats the incentive? UNless you want to eat bpand j for the rest of your life and live in crappy subsidized housing, your gonna look for a better job.

I work in a welfare office, I see many college school schedules come in because people are trying to get out of their rut.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:36 AM
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Originally posted by redhatty
The OP pays NO TAXES, as is clearly revealed in the course of the thread. So should someone who doesn't save their money and doesn't pay any taxes, be proclaiming the goodness of government run health care for everyone?


Um...


Originally posted by iamjesusphishdid you miss the part that said I am a tax paying citizen?


Care to go back an answer my question, properly? Then, I'll go back and answer yours.


Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Woland
 

Police and such are funded by LOCALITIES.


And who funds these LOCALITIES?



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:38 AM
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"Accidentally Addicted" .. I like that one.

People fall on hard times. There are many charities and individuals that help those that do. If the government will give me anything I want, what's the goal to work?

Yeah, that's a good one. Although I realize no one gets up one day and says, "I wanna be an addict".

Then it is up to the addictee to take responsibility for the addiction and seek help with the addiction, but the government and taxpayers shouldn't be paying for it.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:41 AM
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I want to know how a 23 year old gets Medicaid, my daughter is a juvenile diabetic, she can't get Medicaid because it is only for people with children or children under 18,

She works for and pays for all her insulin and diabetic supplies and sometimes ask for help at the free clinic,

Last month she went in to get some insulin she asked for because she didn't have the money, they turned her away, saying the lady who orders it was fired because she failed to order drugs for the people who go to the clinic,

When my daughter, who BTW doesn't drink or do drugs, was on Medicaid when she was young none of the doctors in our area would take her because they said they no longer take Medicaid patients,

So she was left with the incompetent and inadequate care, and long waits,

Heather was a full time college student, and worked full time, she had to drop out to get a better job to pay for her insulin,

In the meantime drug addicts and alcoholics can get SSI and help with their addictions, while my daughter who will die without insulin was turned away from the free clinic, which isn't free, BTW you have to pay according to what you make.

When she had to drop out of school I sent letters and made countless calls to Obama, Bush and my state reps , no one cared. Even tried to get on Oprah.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:42 AM
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Originally posted by redhatty

Originally posted by Yummy Freelunch
The OP did use a program to help the poor. He was in an accident, took pain killers for his pain, became addicted, then needed help to remove this addiction. Id say kudos to him for getting off them.
Addiction DOES occur, it happened to Elizabeth Taylor as well, she became addicted to pain meds..doesnt make him a leech or a scum. But a human being that needed help.
The OP says he DOES work, so that means he DOES pay taxes. Yes, I think it is a good thing.


The OP also stated that he gets a refund every year, that is NOT "paying" taxes, that is having the .gov "borrow" some of your money for a while, you still get it back.

You didn't even touch on my question, if the OP never had medicaid to pay for his pain pills, do you think the OP would have managed to become addicted in the first place?


The other poster is in a hard situation as are many in the country right now. I know several people who have lost their homes and jobs. How does this make him a bad person?
Are you saying that having children made him a bad person? You're kidding, right?


No, I didn't say that it made him a "bad" person, do NOT put words in my mouth.

What it does display is a LACK of the concept of Personal Responsibility. And that applies for anyone who choses to procreate without being able to afford to do so.

Responsible people have children when they are in a stable position, and they save up money for the cost and care of the child. Irresponsible people have kids when they can't afford it.

DO YOU not understand the concept of Personal Responsibility??? If not, then I give up too.

I suppose what I was referring to was the fact that he became addicted to the pills, it happens. Glad he's off of them, no matter who paid for it. I care more about him than the money or who is footing the bill, period.
You are right, you didnt call him a bad person, but you asked if it was good. The opposite of that is? And bringing forth a child, is a blessing to these people. I wish them much happiness.
Personal responsibility? I am responsible for myself, and I take care of needs, and my childrens. I also take in unwanted animals, and people. I care for them with my own funds. I dont ask for help from anyone, because I feel as a human being on this planet it IS my job to help others. Whether anyone agrees with me or not, is not my problem. I guess Im not used to uncompassion, is that even a word? lol



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:43 AM
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Originally posted by Yummy Freelunch
Its everyones "job", we are all human beings floating on this rock together, if you want to turn your back on your fellow life, be my guest, hope you sleep well at night. Charities , who actually gets the money. It all comes down to the buck, doesnt it.

Actually if all you knew were huts, it wouldnt matter, what mattered is everyone worked together as a unit. They didnt turn their backs on their fellows. They took in other's children, they worked together for food, shelter, fun, and everything else that life is about. It wasnt about the almighty dollar.
Im not saying no one should be rich, what sickens me is treating someone like sh%t because they dont have as much of the "green" as someone else.


It's everyone's "job" to take care of themselves FIRST and FOREMOST.

Even in primitive tribes, if someone was leeching off the rest of the tribe, they would be shunned. Not the elderly, who helped the society, and not those who were disabled through whatever misfortune, but those who chose to do nothing would be shunned and ultimately expelled from the tribe.

The elderly and disabled and orphans are helped by the whole tribe, yes, but even then they are expected to also help the tribe too, by helping to watch the young while the younger and healthier do what is necessary for the tribe to thrive.

Charity is for those who need it due to no fault of their own. Debilitating illnesses, catastrophic accidents, unforseen forces of nature that wipe you out.

Choosing to be unproductive, choosing to fall into addiction does not warrant the charity of others. It didn't in primitive tribes and still doesn't



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:45 AM
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reply to post by opal13
 


VERY well put! ..

If it went to help responsible, productive members of society who simply fall on hard times (like a woman getting breast cancer, or a man getting prostate cancer, or a family that has a mentally challenged kid or something) then I would be 100% fine seeing the state pay 100% of their medical bills (still.... not the Federal Government if it can be helped.)

But free care for the sake of free care promotes abuse, abuse = waste.

And honestly, we can't really rely on the Federal Government to be the best source of judgment on who "deserves" the free care if we were selective. Best left to the States, micro management is better than macro-management.

reply to post by Yummy Freelunch
 




Absolutely, but I didnt take over the whole thread..


So?



Its everyones "job", we are all human beings floating on this rock together, if you want to turn your back on your fellow life, be my guest, hope you sleep well at night. Charities , who actually gets the money. It all comes down to the buck, doesnt it.


Sorry, I could care less if you're a human, a tree, a raccoon or a mouse. Actually.. I have more compassion for animals than Humans for the most part... Humans have a tendency to come off more animalistic. And it really doesn't have much to do with the "money" .. it has to do with principles. But no one gives a damn about principles anymore, do they?



Actually if all you knew were huts, it wouldnt matter, what mattered is everyone worked together as a unit. They didnt turn their backs on their fellows. They took in other's children, they worked together for food, shelter, fun, and everything else that life is about. It wasnt about the almighty dollar. Im not saying no one should be rich, what sickens me is treating someone like sh%t because they dont have as much of the "green" as someone else.


Being poor isn't the problem, you fail to see the concerns being expressed by opposition. It's the PRINCIPLE of the matter.. the fact that someone wants something simply because they feel they are ENTITLED. Now, they never did anything to deserve entitlement, they just grew up in a World that promotes the "work less, get more" attitude. IMO, it's no different than the Federal Government sending out vouchers to buy crack.

Oh snap, guess it's not that far off.. after all, the OP managed to hook an addiction from state funded pills.


Nothing wrong with poor people. I'm a poor person. I would never judge a person based on their net worth.. that would be hypocritical. But I don't expect other people to give me money, or food, or shelter, or medical care simply because I am poor. If I want those luxuries I will take what I can earn.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:47 AM
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reply to post by redhatty
 




Even in primitive tribes, if someone was leeching off the rest of the tribe, they would be shunned. Not the elderly, who helped the society, and not those who were disabled through whatever misfortune, but those who chose to do nothing would be shunned and ultimately expelled from the tribe.


Sadly ironic that we do the complete opposite. We give everything to the degenerates and we give little to nothing to the elderly. A weak Medicare system and a Social Security check that the government cheats them on by manipulating inflation numbers.

Uncle Sam's "Thank You"...



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 09:47 AM
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Originally posted by redhatty

Originally posted by Yummy Freelunch
Its everyones "job", we are all human beings floating on this rock together, if you want to turn your back on your fellow life, be my guest, hope you sleep well at night. Charities , who actually gets the money. It all comes down to the buck, doesnt it.

Actually if all you knew were huts, it wouldnt matter, what mattered is everyone worked together as a unit. They didnt turn their backs on their fellows. They took in other's children, they worked together for food, shelter, fun, and everything else that life is about. It wasnt about the almighty dollar.
Im not saying no one should be rich, what sickens me is treating someone like sh%t because they dont have as much of the "green" as someone else.


It's everyone's "job" to take care of themselves FIRST and FOREMOST.

Even in primitive tribes, if someone was leeching off the rest of the tribe, they would be shunned. Not the elderly, who helped the society, and not those who were disabled through whatever misfortune, but those who chose to do nothing would be shunned and ultimately expelled from the tribe.

The elderly and disabled and orphans are helped by the whole tribe, yes, but even then they are expected to also help the tribe too, by helping to watch the young while the younger and healthier do what is necessary for the tribe to thrive.

Charity is for those who need it due to no fault of their own. Debilitating illnesses, catastrophic accidents, unforseen forces of nature that wipe you out.

Choosing to be unproductive, choosing to fall into addiction does not warrant the charity of others. It didn't in primitive tribes and still doesn't

You are right, everyone had their part to do.
And that brings us back to the OP, he is working, granted, a minimum wage job, but he is working. He is trying to support himself.
I guess I missed the part where he bitched about the medicaid, I didnt take it as that.



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