I am 23, an American Citizen with government run health care.

reply to post by iamjesusphish


Someone told me that Canada has free healthcare. Maybe even England or Australia too, don't remember. I also heard that people standing in those lines to get said free health care give up the ghost and keel over and die because it took forever to get it. Hmmm. I don't know. I guess I have been lucky the past 15 years and haven't gotten sick, a cavity, 20/15 vision (yes it is better than 20/20) or broken a major bone. Why? Because I haven't had insurance! I know, I know, Murphy's Law. Well, I gotta wait a couple more months then the girlfriend will probably be allowed to add me to hers.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV


And the US embargo in no way helped Cuba's slide...

Cuba was free to trade with her other miserable and failed communist states. The embargo applies to US companies and goods. I guess that didn't help them much. Shouldn't their wonderful enlightened socialism have led them to utopia?

Next time, pick examples that fit. Like this one: The Khmer Rouge redistributed the wealth. It was the only truly communist nation on earth, everybody starved together (with the exception of the top echelon, but half of them were purged, so all levels truly were sharing everything).

And that's your shining example of communism? A regime that slaughtered millions of innocent people and still left the remainder poorer than a church mouse?

And the point isn't redistribution of wealth, the point is redistribution of earnings.

...
Owners get richer simply by owning, workers do not get richer, despite the owner not being able to get richer without the worker. How about the owners get only a little richer, so the workers can all get a little richer as well?

With all due respect I don't think you understand capitalism very well. The owners became rich because they were willing to risk their capital on an idea or venture that could bring value to society. If successful they are rewarded handsomely. Most venture capitalists by the way are happy if one in ten of their ventures are successful.

Without the capital and the potential for great reward innovations such as the internet, the car, railroads, the internal combustion engine etc. etc. would never have been invented. These inventions have yielded value many times more than their initial investment, proving again that wealth in a capitalistic society not a closed sum game. (Look up the definition of that if you don't know.)

A worker takes no risks beyond the normal risks of surviving from day to day. They are compensated in proportion to their efforts, in accordance with what the market will bear. In a decent capitalist society, any worker can become an owner if they have a good idea, the energy and the desire to make their dreams come true. These opportunities do not exist in a crappy socialist country, because the stinking lying no good dictatorial government makes all your economic decisions, preventing you from becoming an owner, and these decisions are usually very poor.

Furthermore, if an ordinary worker can not pursue a specific idea for a venture, it is possible to prosper from other ideas in several ways, including investing or even joining and being part of a startup venture. I have several friends who have become wealthy that way. Thus there is every opportunity for a resourceful person to prosper in a society that isn't controlled by stinking socialists.

reply to post by logistix111


Someone told you? Jeezuz, it isn't that hard to look up. In the UK it's called the NHS (National Health Service) and in Australia it's Medicare. No, nobody keels over while waiting for free medical service.

That service saves lives. Such as mine. And that service is free. What you have to wait for is elective surgery, not emergency treatment.

Simple fact is this: The US has the worst health care system of the developed world. And all this bull# about a "uniquely American solution" is because the health insurers don't want to give up the uniquely American abortion of a system they've got now that allows them to charge people beforehand for a service they won't get later. That is certainly uniquely American.

reply to post by SevenThunders


With not much due respect, you don't understand reality.

1. No, I wasn't holding up the Khmer Rouge as an example to follow, I was showing that you have no clue what you're talking about when you start using terminology such as communist and socialist.

2. As for the embargo, who was Cuba's major trading partner prior to the embargo?

3. As for your "great inventions" trope, how many of them were invented in Europe or the UK? All of them.

The railroad, the car, the internal combustion engine were all invented in Europe, where every country has socialised medicine. The internet was invented by a Knight of the Realm who was born under the NHS and whose medical needs were provided for by the NHS.

As for your "crappy socialist" countries, no Australian bank went bust, broke or bankrupt, nor did they ask for a $ of federal funds while their American cousins were screaming, kicking and dying from their own greed, even although Australia has socialised medicine.

I guess it isn't only health care that is uniquely American in America.

reply to post by iamjesusphish


And just why do you deserve to dip into my pocket without my permission to pay for your problems?

Originally posted by redhatty
reply to post by iamjesusphish

 

So, YOUR BAD CHOICES have been subsidized by my taxes.

You CHOSE to do drugs, and this caused health problems, but MY TAXES are paying for your rehab and your medical treatment.

Of course you want to keep your free health care going, Me and the rest of the american tax-payers are paying your bills!!!!!

America really has become a nation of leeches, your post is just another example of that.

So what you've never made a mistake in your life. Yes he did drugs and he ODed fine everyone deserves a second chance. How about you come take a walk in my shoes a while. Just one year. I want to see if you keep your smug attitude after you lose your job paying 80k a year and are forced to accept on paying less then half with crappy medical coverage. You try being told that your insurence will not cover lancing an extreamly painfull cyst because It's not "medical neccisity" You try being told that you have to pay $5000 to get dental work because your insurence only covers 15% You try have to pay $175.68 per week to cover your one child on the medical insurense but you only making $540 per week. You cant afford it. If is was not for government run health care my son would not have any health care. So you tell me what wrong with everyone being able to go to the hospital. I dont do drugs, Im not some gangsta, Im just your average joe who is trying to take care of his family with the best I got. Come walk a mile in my shoes I guarrentee you that after your done you will change your mind.

I ran across an article in our local paper. It seems that our representives here have come back to town to explain their vote on the healthcare bill. one voted for it, the other against it...
here was the reasoning of the one that was against it.

we have two non-profit hospitals in the area.
and in each of them, at least according to his claims, 80% of the patients are medicare/medicaid. and well, these programs don't pay the full cost, so that cost gets shuffled over to the other patients. this guy is worried that if the bill gets past, there won't be any other patients to shuffle the cost over to...

but, well, fox news has on it once that the doctors are claiming 50% of thier patients are on these programs, this guy says it's 80% for our hospital patients....seems to me that at least half of the medical care being provided is in courtesy of the US taxpayer.....

just wondering, how many of the other 20% to 50% are avoiding the medical care because they just can't afford it???

another article I ran across seems to be saying that amoung trauma victims, there's something like an 80% greater chance of death if one is uninsured, it isn't that they are getting crappy service in the er, it more that they can't get the follow up service....

so, in essence, we already have it where the gov't is picking and chosing who they deem is worthy or isn't, who should live, who should die.

80%???? totally blows my mind!

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

1. No, I wasn't holding up the Khmer Rouge as an example to follow, I was showing that you have no clue what you're talking about when you start using terminology such as communist and socialist.

Nope you clearly love the Khmer Rouge. What is it you love about them? The two million they killed in just a few years of socialist paradise?

2. As for the embargo, who was Cuba's major trading partner prior to the embargo?

Big deal. Their socialist utopia and their close ties to Russia should have saved them right? Why did they end up sending desperate refugees in boats to live in that horrible exploitive capitalistic society, the US.

3. As for your "great inventions" trope, how many of them were invented in Europe or the UK? All of them.

I never claimed the US invented my examples, though while the US was a capitalist society they had the lion's share of patents, Nobel prize winners etc. The point is, these innovations were invented by capitalist societies.

I'm sorry you are feeling insecure about the slide of your european socialist utopias into the abyss. Get used to praying towards Mecca and beating your wife if you live there by the way.

As for your "crappy socialist" countries, no Australian bank went bust, broke or bankrupt, nor did they ask for a $ of federal funds while their American cousins were screaming, kicking and dying from their own greed, even although Australia has socialised medicine.

I guess it isn't only health care that is uniquely American in America.

Of course most of the medical innovation that you relied on was created in America during this time precisely because it still had some market incentives, though they were terribly warped. The American system right now is mostly socialistic and you know very little about it apparently. No one is refused emergency services. Just ask any illegal alien who visits the emergency room.

As for the bank crisis, you apparently don't realize that it was created by a socialistic program very similar to the one proposed for our medical system. It was a program that promised cheap and easy credit for anyone who wants to buy a home. The cry was that too few Americans could afford homes, so we'll make it easy to buy one. Thus they created Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. This led to the housing bubble and when it became impossible for many to repay their loans, the bubble burst and brought down a bunch of banks with it.

Socialized medicine will in the same way bring down the US system. There simply is not enough money to pay for every illegal alien. It will make it impossible for the ordinary hard working American middle class to get viable health care. In fact when the state of MA created socialized health care for their citizens, healthcare costs shot up to among the highest in the nation.

reply to post by redhatty


I agree that if the game is played as it has been, gov't healthcare could very easily never become cheaper. I am saying however, that if people had much better access to preventative healthcare, there is a possability we could save money on healthcare. I cant say its a proven fact, but generally speaking, the sooner you catch a health problem, the easier and cheaper it is to solve it.

Whenver I think of health care with the intention of thinking outside the box, I immeadiately get a few thoughts that are best described as follows:

What we need is a hospital system large enough in every city that serves everyone to provide health care to the masses. Funding these hospitals would imply that controlling costs and profits of Insurance companies and hospital corporations must be controlled.

This same local health care system would also serve all the children in the local schools and under such a system the health centers would also generate employment for the region and would support local educational systems that feed the hospital system with nurses, technicians etc. etc.

The approach of the federal health care bill is to deny health care in order to control costs. I believe that we must begin by controlling the health care cost at the insurance company level and within the hospital industries and pharmacutical companies that bill against medicare or medicaid. A fair and standarized payment schedule would pay those that provide services on a fair pay basis and yet I have no doubt that profits could be generated by volume instead of bilking health care costs. It makes sense to control profits because greed and corruption must be addressed at its source.

If we have learned anything is that we need to focus on the end user and not those that are going to manage the system. It is not the system that is important, it is the human being being treated that must come first.

Profits must be controlled enough to allow for some company profits. Growth would be based on volume seen. At present, profits from health related services drive everything up and up and if the government gets involved with the same profit loss motive then we all will suffer the decision.

Oh well, someone smarter than me can figure it out, I just hope we dont miss a golden opportunity to fix problems that need fixing before adding another system on top of a failed corrupt system.

Originally posted by VonDoomen
reply to post by redhatty

 

I agree that if the game is played as it has been, gov't healthcare could very easily never become cheaper. I am saying however, that if people had much better access to preventative healthcare, there is a possability we could save money on healthcare. I cant say its a proven fact, but generally speaking, the sooner you catch a health problem, the easier and cheaper it is to solve it.

Very true, but the reality is that here in america, most people don't even acknowledge that something *could* be an issue until it affects their day to day life, and, no offense to the male species, but most men will literally be on their death bed before going to a doctor, with or without health insurance.

So much less expensive to outlaw poison artificial sweeteners (aspartame) and preservatives and require that foods stuffs sold actually contain an absorb able minimum of healthy requirements.

Health and nutrition education beginning in preschool (as well as having said schools provide truly healthy meal options) to keep the next generation from being obese type 1 & 2 diabetics with no genetic cause for the disease.

Change medical practice from symptomatic treatment to actual curative treatment

the list goes on & on

But no matter how long the list is, America will not change, nor will most of the rest of the world, when it comes to the actual practice of healthcare, we will all continue to treat symptoms rather than cure disease, postpone surgeries until there is no other alternative, regardless of how much the previous symptomatic treatment actually made things worse, and create a whole new generation of prescription drug addicts due to a national healthcare plan, because a doped up submissive populace, focused on American Idle, the latest celebrity dirt & overpriced sports shows is more effectively controlled than an alert, aware, healthy populace.

reply to post by redhatty


"Very true, but the reality is that here in america, most people don't even acknowledge that something *could* be an issue until it affects their day to day life, and, no offense to the male species, but most men will literally be on their death bed before going to a doctor, with or without health insurance."

Hat's off to you RedHatty! that was one of the most insightful simple comments I've read in a very long time. this country is so dam slow to change, to accept change unless they are faced with it directly! we are as isolated from the rest of the world as we ever were and believe everything we read in the news..

Now you may not agree with this part - but its just like how we hear in the news that so many come to america b/c of our great surgeons and that people have to wait for years or months for care in other countries like Australia or England - fact of the matter, this is just not true. my relatives who just so happen to be in England and Australia get furious over America's treatment and media coverage on other nations foreign healthcare b/c its just not true. they have just as many ppl from 3rd world countries who need to separate siamese twins or come there to try out a new cancer treatment in their country just like in the U.S. their mortality rate is lower b/c of their health systems. so i don't know if a universal health plan is the answer but its the insurance companies who keep closed records so we can't see how or where their profits come from and are preventing this from being pushed thru. i do know that 15years ago when this was trying to be pushed thru that the same reasons were brought up, healthcare is too expensive, we can't afford it, but let's do something else instead of UHC plan, and guess what? the plan wasn't pushed thru and NOTHING was done in return. here we are 15years later and things have gotten only worse and they will continue to get worse. so if we do away with a Universal plan, then we need to start coming up with suggestions instead of complaints.

Also, people in this forum have cried foul saying they don't want to pay for other peoples problems. they don't want to pay for other peoples healthcare. I think that is a bit vain. I would much rather see my money going to pay for someone's cancer treatment than to pay $1mm for a missile to be fired at some Iraqi's - !

I can't believe this thread is still going... Thank you all for the positive posts... As to the negative posts... Have some compassion for another human being... I have overcome something harder than you could Imagine... Anyways health care reform isnt going to happen... thanks for the posts people//

phish

Originally posted by iamjesusphish
Alright I am very fed up with rich people that have great health care being enraged with the notion that they will not pay for another persons health care because it is socialist... I am 23 years old and have been on Medicaid since I was 18 and taking off my parents insurance. This is not because I don't work or pay taxes but simply because I can not afford private insurance.

Now first off I am a recovering addict and without medicaid I would have died when I overdosed in 2004. Without Medicaid I would have been pushed off to a hospital that could not treat my Pulmonary Edema. My life was saved because of government run health care.

I for one believe that every American citizens deserves to be insured. To any of you that think our country will be ruined because of this needs to be human for one second and think about their fellows humans. We are not enemies. We are the same as you except we are not as well off. I work just like you do I pay taxes just like you and I would want the same health insurance for you....



[edit on 15-8-2009 by iamjesusphish]

Well.. it´s sad to hear about your story..but have you ever consider scandinavia..here if you work you have axcess to the best helthcare in world..if you get ill you have axcess to the best helthcare in world and you get paid for your bills untill you start working again..if you is unemploied..you have axcess to the best helthcare in world and you get paid for your bills untill you start working again..and all this for som little tax money..about thirty percent..

Originally posted by pacific_waters
reply to post by iamjesusphish

 

And just why do you deserve to dip into my pocket without my permission to pay for your problems?

You should be happy to do it because it is the HUMAN thing to do. How did we get to the point as a society where we only think about ourselves?

If you are doing ok then you better break bread and feed your people. You don't think other people want to eat too?

Its time to break bread. Why don't you people understand this?

I notice how Republicans always covet their money and throw stones at people for making mistakes or living lives that 'force' their help with tax dollars. meanwhile, we all pay income tax to cover the bloodshed we inflict on other countries... but blood money is not as bad as welfare money I guess.

Such good Christians....

Jesus: "Why the F*CK should I have to die for THEIR sins?!?!?"

[edit on 19-2-2010 by spiritualzombie]

[edit on 19-2-2010 by spiritualzombie]

Originally posted by king9072
Im Canadian. Had health care my entire life. Been to the hospital tens of times in my life either myself, a family member or a friend.

Best part, is when you leave, and it costs you nothing. Ever.

see,that is what makes it bad for the US corporations. They cant milk the patient. The gov sets the rules, and they cant put their greedy mitts into it. People get healthy, maybe not like with a high priced insurance policy can, but more than they get now. Its amazing how corporate profits take presidency over human lives. But that is the American way. Even though I hate the cold, I'm more and more seriously thinking of moving up your way. Ive been there several times, and find Canadians a wonderful people who dont have the need to destroy each other in the name of greed and obscene profits. If you could just do something about the cold, Id enjoy it much more. But I can live with it.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
reply to post by logistix111

 

Someone told you? Jeezuz, it isn't that hard to look up. In the UK it's called the NHS (National Health Service) and in Australia it's Medicare. No, nobody keels over while waiting for free medical service.

That service saves lives. Such as mine. And that service is free. What you have to wait for is elective surgery, not emergency treatment.

Simple fact is this: The US has the worst health care system of the developed world. And all this bull# about a "uniquely American solution" is because the health insurers don't want to give up the uniquely American abortion of a system they've got now that allows them to charge people beforehand for a service they won't get later. That is certainly uniquely American.

reply to post by SevenThunders

 

With not much due respect, you don't understand reality.

1. No, I wasn't holding up the Khmer Rouge as an example to follow, I was showing that you have no clue what you're talking about when you start using terminology such as communist and socialist.

2. As for the embargo, who was Cuba's major trading partner prior to the embargo?

3. As for your "great inventions" trope, how many of them were invented in Europe or the UK? All of them.

The railroad, the car, the internal combustion engine were all invented in Europe, where every country has socialised medicine. The internet was invented by a Knight of the Realm who was born under the NHS and whose medical needs were provided for by the NHS.

As for your "crappy socialist" countries, no Australian bank went bust, broke or bankrupt, nor did they ask for a $ of federal funds while their American cousins were screaming, kicking and dying from their own greed, even although Australia has socialised medicine.

I guess it isn't only health care that is uniquely American in America.

SEVEN THUNDER... I just had to congratulate you on your post. You hit the nail right on the head. Ive been around the world as a traveler, and have even lived for a few months at a time in places like UK, Australia, New Zealand, who have great health care for all. In fact, once when spending 3 months in Melbourne , my 3 year old son became ill. We went to the hospital. He was seen in less than 30 minutes, treated with attention and care I have only seen at our private pediatrician here, and when I pulled out my credit card to pay the bill, I was told No way. And even handed a prescription for a base price of $20.

The US use to be a top contender for best health care, but that was when we had a strong middle class, low unemployment, Doctors weren't all specialist at $200 for a minute visit, CEO's were not making 4000 times the average workers wage, CEO's like the now gov of Florida Rick Scott were not ripping off the medical system for billions of dollars, and When a good steady profit was considered a great thing and companies were not being blackmailed into continued high profit growth or analyst would ruin their stock values with their words.

Then a few well positioned and powerful sociopaths got control of politicians, schools and many corporations and in their campaign to control it all, they ruined the whole country. All in the name of power and more and more profit. Face it, when you have 100 million in the bank, how much more do you really need? But they continue to take it from the working people, and the country as a whole, destroying the country, the people, and all.

Fighting health care was their way to keep control, power, and profits on the rise. They want no rules or regulations for themselves, but insist on enforcing their will upon the rest of us, and demand the gov enforce their will. I'm just waiting for the day when a real disaster in health care happens, and the rich and greedy run in panic , crying about why the gov doesn't provide health care to the ill people, to protect the rich from being surrounded by masses with deadly diseases. Maybe it will take an Ebola or black plague out break before they wake up from their sociopath bubble.

I applaud universal health care for all. I like the idea of not having the wonder if someone has been checked out for TB or worse when they cough standing next to me in an elevator. But with our greed driven system, I worry each time.



Oh, I just wanted to add, I know people who moved here from other countries, that buy plane tickets to go home for medical treatment when they are ill. Air fare is cheaper than paying the cost of care here. I even know a Pharmacist , who is from Russia , and she flies home for care in Russia because she saves so much money doing it, even with her insurance wal greens gives her. !! Says a lot about our system here I think.

Originally posted by redhatty
reply to post by iamjesusphish

 

So, YOUR BAD CHOICES have been subsidized by my taxes.

You CHOSE to do drugs, and this caused health problems, but MY TAXES are paying for your rehab and your medical treatment.

Of course you want to keep your free health care going, Me and the rest of the american tax-payers are paying your bills!!!!!

America really has become a nation of leeches, your post is just another example of that.

OK, I will tell of my own case. I do not do drugs, and am not a drunk. I was a truck driver, hauling food products to plants that produce food for human consumption. I had a load on of soy sauce, and went off the road because of water in the road, rolled over the semi, and broke my back and neck. I had worked all my adult life, and now I am disabled for life. I did not ask for this, and do not wish it to be, but it is. So, am I one of these leeches you speak of? Are you feeling bad because your taxes help me with my medical problems? Just asking, you seemed to be pretty down on anyone getting Medicaid.

Originally posted by pacific_waters
reply to post by iamjesusphish

 

And just why do you deserve to dip into my pocket without my permission to pay for your problems?

have you ever heard of the concept of the greater good? Because it makes the country a better place for you and your family. This country was started on everyone helping each other. Do you think the pilgrims made it by being greedy and keeping everything for themselves? Its never going to be fair for everyone, there will always be moochers, you cant avoid it. But by making sure they are not carrying the Plague, you increase your safety. By making having health care for everyone, companies dont have to fund it on their own, you dont have it taken out of your check by the company, people dont miss work as much, people arent as likely to bring viruses to work and make several ill, and if they do, they can all get treated. Your kids dont have to be in school with someone who could likely carry a nasty disease and pass it to your kids, then you, and so on. Less days missed, cost savings for companies, no burden or loss of homes and savings when you get ill, and you will get ill someday. Sure, its not perfect, but its better that what we have now. So unless your a totally selfish greedy uncaring sociopath, you shouldnt be upset about the idea of a National health care system. It would most likely cost less than your paying now, unless you in a position were yours is paid 100%. Now if your a CEO, or a wanna be CEO. I can undestand your lack of compassion or common sense of the greater good for your country and your fellow Americans.


The problem I see is not so much paying for it. It the corporations getting their fingers into the pot, and influencing the politicians with lobbyist to make sure they get more than they should. Dont think our wonderful American Capitalist would do that? Look around. I give you Rick Scott, now gov of Florida for a prime example.
That is where the problems will come in. Not the poor family getting treatment.

Originally posted by autowrench

Originally posted by redhatty
reply to post by iamjesusphish

 

So, YOUR BAD CHOICES have been subsidized by my taxes.

You CHOSE to do drugs, and this caused health problems, but MY TAXES are paying for your rehab and your medical treatment.

Of course you want to keep your free health care going, Me and the rest of the american tax-payers are paying your bills!!!!!

America really has become a nation of leeches, your post is just another example of that.

OK, I will tell of my own case. I do not do drugs, and am not a drunk. I was a truck driver, hauling food products to plants that produce food for human consumption. I had a load on of soy sauce, and went off the road because of water in the road, rolled over the semi, and broke my back and neck. I had worked all my adult life, and now I am disabled for life. I did not ask for this, and do not wish it to be, but it is. So, am I one of these leeches you speak of? Are you feeling bad because your taxes help me with my medical problems? Just asking, you seemed to be pretty down on anyone getting Medicaid.

Let me guess, your on Medicaid because you company and the insurance company fought tooth and nail not to pay you a dime. I know what your feeling. I know it well. It happens every day. Companies , and insurance companies, dont care about people. Only profit. You didnt ask for your disability, but people treat you like you did this to yourself on purpose. I very much know your pain brother. I have seen in up close and personal in my own family.