And just for the record - Medicare is NOT free...the premium costs one hundred dollars a month - a lot of money when you live on a fixed income so for all you out there who think us awfully inconvenient sick people are getting a free ride - you are wrong and ill informed - Also Medicare doesn't cover everything and there are still costs that have to be covered - so get a grip folks - and do your research before you post. Some of you may be wondering what is the mysterious illness that I and hundreds of thousands of others have? Kidney failure or otherwise known as "end stage renal disease" which requires dialysis three times a week to stay alive or a transplant... If you have an inquiring mind you will find that there are multiple kidney dialysis centers in every city and and at least one in most counties in this country... There are probably eight here in Seattle area alone...Without medicare most of us would be dead -

Government run health-care {as it stands that is medicare at the moment} may not be the perfect answer but at least someone had the idea that we were worth keeping alive and put that idea into practice - I am sorry if that rankles some of you but when you have a catastrophic illness or reach sixty and find that your health insurance company won't pony up for your medical care any longer you'll be glad its available...if it still is available that is...

[edit on 3-10-2009 by realshanti]

[edit on 3-10-2009 by realshanti]

realshanti:

Most illnesses treated are not life threatening .. not even close.

Illnesses are not a whim. Your desire to take from one and give to another, by force .. IS a whim.

Posessions are not the "fullness of life". FREEDOM is.

This really just boils down to a simple observation:

I believe the highest order of man is to protect freedom.

You believe the highest order of man is to show love and compassion to all (I think). Here's the problem: How do you show compassion by taking from one person to give to another without hurting someone? That's your dirty little secret: YOU choose favorites.

[edit on 3-10-2009 by Guidance.Is.Internal]

[edit on 3-10-2009 by Guidance.Is.Internal]

Originally posted by Guidance.Is.Internal
realshanti:

Most illnesses treated are not life threatening .. not even close.

Mine is - very close LOL...without dialysis I will die..end of story.

Illnesses are not a whim. Your desire to take from one and give to another, by force .. IS a whim.

It is not my desire to take from anyone - it IS my desire to give which is why I never minded the money missing from my paycheck to go for health care and social concerns- if you can figure out a better way to get care to the needy and the sick I'm open to suggestions - we used to take care of folks without the fed but there were huge gaps in that delivery system which was left up to individuals and charities and churches... my main complaint with the health-care reform bill was the outright disregard for the sanctity of human life in portions of it - your objection has to do with the sanctity of individual freedom...

Posessions are not the "fullness of life". FREEDOM is.

This really just boils down to a simple observation:

I believe the highest order of man is to protect freedom.

You believe the highest order of man is to show love and compassion to all (I think). Here's the problem: How do you show compassion by taking from one person to give to another without hurting someone? That's your dirty little secret: YOU choose favorites.

Love is the highest order of man - God is Love - that is the truth and the truth will set you free - not my dirty little secret - Christ's open declaration and not a secret at all...Freedom without Love is empty rhetoric. And to state the obvious there is no freedom [in the material world at least] without life...

However - despite our philosophical differences -
Medicare is all many of us have - practically everyone who is retired uses Medicare, not just the seriously ill...what would you put it in its place at this point without leaving many to die? That is a serious question...and honestly hard to wrap my brain around - not my area of expertise...

edit to say - on second thought I wonder if the fed could simply make it a voluntary payment and folks like yourself that do not want to contribute could opt out? I have a feeling that many would opt in - maybe enough to make the system work? Just thinking out loud...





[edit on 3-10-2009 by realshanti]

Originally posted by realshanti
Mine is - very close LOL...without dialysis I will die..end of story.

In an ideal world, medical care would be inexpensive enough that you could purchase your dialysis out-of-pocket. Obviously, this isn't the case. A root cause solution is needed. We've got a high demand low supply situation .. and prices rise.

Nobody in government is talking about root cause solutions. Just spend more money. Why haven't I heard any politicians urging for tort reform or rolling back regulations? It's damn expensive to become a doctor. It's damn expensive to buy a dialysis machine. Why MUST it be so? Where are the costs coming from? I don't think they really care ..

It is not my desire to take from anyone - it IS my desire to give which is why I never minded the money missing from my paycheck to go for health care and social concerns- if you can figure out a better way to get care to the needy and the sick I'm open to suggestions - we used to take care of folks without the fed but there were huge gaps in that delivery system which was left up to individuals and charities and churches... my main complaint with the health-care reform bill was the outright disregard for the sanctity of human life in portions of it - your objection has to do with the sanctity of individual freedom...

That's the beauty of freedom - you spend what you want where you want. At the very least, our system should be structured so that we can choose where our money goes. If I want to spend it all on animal shelters and roads, that should be my right. Democracy ..

Love is the highest order of man - God is Love - that is the truth and the truth will set you free - not my dirty little secret - Christ's open declaration and not a secret at all...Freedom without Love is empty rhetoric. And to state the obvious there is no freedom [in the material world at least] without life...

Religion has no place in this conversation, frankly. I might as well start talking about flying spaghetti monsters and Satan worship. Any argument that relies on the audience having a religious bent will fall apart in the slightest breeze.

However - despite our philosophical differences -
Medicare is all many of us have - practically everyone who is retired uses Medicare, not just the seriously ill...what would you put it in its place at this point without leaving many to die? That is a serious question...and honestly hard to wrap my brain around - not my area of expertise...

Slam the door shut. Whoever is in the system continues to receive care, but no more. In the future, if you want healthcare, buy some insurance or get a job with insurance bennies (which most offer nowdays anyway). It ain't perfect, but until costs are reduced, it's the best you're gonna get.

Engage yourself in a thought experiment. Let's say tomorrow there were no insurance companies or social services. Everything is out of pocket. Hospitals, doctors, specialists, pharmaceutical companies, medical machinery manufacturers - suddenly have NO business. Patients suddenly have NO treatment. There would be an incredible downward pressure on treatment and machinery prices, regulations be damned. Doctors, surgeons, hospitals, etc would be taking out ads slashing prices, begging for business. The regulatory system would be shaken apart and inefficiency would be obliterated - the way it shoul d be.

edit to say - on second thought I wonder if the fed could simply make it a voluntary payment and folks like yourself that do not want to contribute could opt out? I have a feeling that many would opt in - maybe enough to make the system work? Just thinking out loud...

It wouldn't work, which is why you can't opt out. The system relies on the healthy masses to pay for the unhealthy .. aka a Ponzi scheme.

Some people need to go have their *heart* checked out.

I think a lot of you have ones that have quit working.

Harm None
Peace

amazed:

The instant your heart steals from me, you've gone from being a philanthropist to a criminal. Have a heart and let people be free.

Posted by realshanti:
Love is the highest order of man - God is Love - that is the truth and the truth will set you free - not my dirty little secret - Christ's open declaration and not a secret at all...Freedom without Love is empty rhetoric. And to state the obvious there is no freedom [in the material world at least] without life...

Response Posted by Guidance:
Religion has no place in this conversation, frankly. I might as well start talking about flying spaghetti monsters and Satan worship. Any argument that relies on the audience having a religious bent will fall apart in the slightest breeze.

Sorry, Guidance, but my religion informs my view of life and therefore is as germane to our discussion as the philosophy that informs yours.

As for it falling apart in the smallest breeze - that's laughable since it has withstood the test of time for two thousand years so far and played a major role in procuring the way of life which you now enjoy - so your while your other points are well taken your ridicule of my religious views are unnecessary and misplaced.

Originally posted by iamjesusphish
Alright I am very fed up with rich people that have great health care being enraged with the notion that they will not pay for another persons health care because it is socialist... I am 23 years old and have been on Medicaid since I was 18 and taking off my parents insurance. This is not because I don't work or pay taxes but simply because I can not afford private insurance.

Now first off I am a recovering addict and without medicaid I would have died when I overdosed in 2004. Without Medicaid I would have been pushed off to a hospital that could not treat my Pulmonary Edema. My life was saved because of government run health care.

I for one believe that every American citizens deserves to be insured. To any of you that think our country will be ruined because of this needs to be human for one second and think about their fellows humans. We are not enemies. We are the same as you except we are not as well off. I work just like you do I pay taxes just like you and I would want the same health insurance for you....



[edit on 15-8-2009 by iamjesusphish]

It seems you have health insurance, so what are you complaining about. Rich people already pay the taxes for this insurance.

What we want is an economy that has jobs that include health insurance. I understand the need for senior care as they no longer work for a living, but you are 18 and fully capable of working for a living.

If the governemnt spends money on people who could work and be insured privately it takes capital away from those that might create jobs.

It's basic economics you need to learn. Its the poor policies of government that has screwed things up, not the free market.

It's not about race or hate either.

The Republican party for the most part are the ones whipping their followers into a frenzy about the whole healthcare thing. I say to the all these hyper machismo, not my money, "personal responsibility", loud mouths, If government run healthcare is soooooo bad than why aren't the Republican leaders running to the these wonderful private insurance companies? It's because they pay 42 bucks a month for their GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTHCARE. They don't have to wait for tests, no death panels, they get all their medical needs met. And it's all GOVERNMENT RUN. They have their disciples so wrapped around their finger it's nauseating. Do you people even realize they have you fighting for something that even they want no part of?
The way the system is now, Dad gets Cancer and his family ends up losing everything due to denied claims, pre-existing conditions, deductibles, etc. Then they lose Dad. Now, you Republicans may be ok with your fellow Americans, your fellow humans, dying by the thousands because of this kind of nonsense. But in case you didn't notice, you guys lost in November. The losers don't get to dictate policy, the winning side does. And fortunately, the winning side is trying to use our commonalities to unite us and maybe even help some of us, as oppossed to the losers, who would use our differences to divide us even more. Yes, some republicans have more money than some democrats. But IMO having more money should only entitle you to be able to buy more useless junk, not dictate who lives or dies. Seems like the only ones IN FAVOR of
Death Panels as usual are the Republicans. Their view seems to be, let the poor die. Be careful what you wish for though. I saw a few of those Teagroups and alot of those folks seemed to have made the choice to consume large quantities of fatty foods in their lives. If the Repubs get their wish, how many of their own would end up getting denied claims because of their weight? I wonder what their reactions would be.

My biggest complaint about goverment healthcare is I pay twice a month every month for medicare and yet I still don't qualify to use it...


where is the logic in that?

EDIT: to add goverment.

[edit on 26-10-2009 by Arsenis]

wow, such a spirited debate.

yes aren't we all? i mean, Obama care is the way, don't fret, forget what your taught, and be bought, and sold, to do what your told. pick at your brain. they're vultures!!!

I believe some of us are already being bought and sold....through wall street...
they buy up the life insurance policies, slice and dice, make single serving salads out of them, just like they did the mortgages, and well, they are still gambling away, this time on how long someone will live!!

so, well, bring the gov't into healthcare, and at least we might have some economic stability!!! if not enough people are dying and the markets start crumbling, well, the government can just move in to take care of that situation!!!

ya, I know, don't we live in a great country!!!
they've found a way to make a fortune off of people's debt, and now, well, they can make a fortune off of people's deaths!!!
can't wait till that one runs it's course, what, the market collaspes because the run out of people to die???

Originally posted by iamjesusphish
Alright I am very fed up with rich people that have great health care being enraged with the notion that they will not pay for another persons health care because it is socialist... I am 23 years old and have been on Medicaid since I was 18 and taking off my parents insurance. This is not because I don't work or pay taxes but simply because I can not afford private insurance.

Now first off I am a recovering addict and without medicaid I would have died when I overdosed in 2004. Without Medicaid I would have been pushed off to a hospital that could not treat my Pulmonary Edema. My life was saved because of government run health care.

I for one believe that every American citizens deserves to be insured. To any of you that think our country will be ruined because of this needs to be human for one second and think about their fellows humans. We are not enemies. We are the same as you except we are not as well off. I work just like you do I pay taxes just like you and I would want the same health insurance for you....



[edit on 15-8-2009 by iamjesusphish]

1- shame on you for wasting our resources as a recovering addict. Some may salute you, I don't.

2- I'm in my mid 30s, recently unemployed, diabetic and hemochromatosis, and cannot afford medical care, nor am I able to receive any government care. I had to visit a hospital (county mind you) last month and was required to pay a total of $224, plus $85 for prescriptions.

3- I agree, everyone should have healthcare. The reason we join together in any society is for the mutual benefit of all. We all pay taxes, we all do our part (in theory). If there is no benefit for being a part of any given society, then it begs the question 'why bother?' Americans have developed this idea that 'what's mine is mine, and you shall never partake of it'. Greed, selfishness, and more- all things discussed, daily, in a myriad of ATS threads.

That really is the bottom line, isn't it- #3. If we've come together, formed a society for mutual benefit, a country, what benefit are we getting? How are we helping our fellow man, our neighbor, and in turn what are we getting back as part of that?

Things will never change in this country, and it's quite simple as to the 'why': as long as people have creature comforts, as long as we're told everything is OK, as long as we are taught that following a set routine, a course in life (which is usually artificial and unobtainable) then we will rarely as a people bother to think about anything more than 'what's for dinner' and the latest reality TV show.

ATS knows this, it's what 95% of the threads devolve into.

If all the money in the world were redistributed to the poor, like the dreamy eyed socialists desire, we would all be poor. Each persons net worth would be $9000, well below the poverty level.

Equal outcomes for doing nothing equals poverty and misery. Rather than redistribute the wealth lets redistribute basic common sense and wisdom. Prior to the huge government increase in taxes and social programs a regular guy could work at a gas station and support a stay at home spouse, children, buy a home and pay for his medical needs out of pocket.

What changed this? Creeping socialism, regulations, lawyers and government do gooders. In the same way Fidel Castro turned a prosperous middle class society like Cuba into a horrific impoverished slave camp, America has been sliding down the same rat hole, with Obama the crowning achievement of the enslavement of the mind.

Obamas plan is a takeover of 20% of the US economy and would outlaw private insurance, thereby outlawing good medicine and medical progress. You can get better and cheaper medical service by paying for it out of pocket in China.

I could easily solve this made up medical problem plus the real problem of social security insolvency. First employers should not be burdened with the responsibility of providing insurance. Instead of funding the government Ponzi scheme known as social security fund medical savings plans instead. It forces real cost competition back into medicine since the user must pay for all routine care out of his medical savings Of course all the slimy "I control your body" medical regulations need to go. Since everyone pays into social security, most everyone would have minimal coverage. It would at least create some artificial hurdles to funding every foreign illegal as well.

Use the bailout money to return some fraction of the stolen social security money, say 1-10 percent and start afresh. Actually start way afresh by declaring a Jubilee of debt forgiveness, including all foreign debt owed. This is a Biblical solution to usury which is what our governments and their owners, foreign bankers, practice via the so called fractional reserve banking system. The only people who actually get hurt during a Jubilee are corrupt malfeasant banksters (hence it won't be done in our lifetime). There are more common sense solutions, but the thick layer of communist brainwashing, stemming from years of abusive government controlled education camps would make it impossible to explain.