I am 23, an American Citizen with government run health care.

reply to post by lpowell0627


Yeah that would be nice if the lowest rung of society made 17- 26k a year ... most are stuck in minimum wage jobs that, at minimum wage and full time, will only make 12-13k a year letsw break some required expenses down

rent avg 500 a month? x 12 = 6000, food 200 a month? x 12 2,400... Utilites 200 / month = 2,400. All together 10,800 leaving 2000 or so dollars behind so minus 700 from healthcare fine or payment leaves 1300 per year of money for them which is 108 dollars per month that is truly money for them .... absolutely ... ridiculous...

not to mention if anywhere the cost of living is higher your absolutely screwed ... Someone in that predicament couldnt pay for one college class or clothes ... literally trapping them in lower class...

Wow now that ive broken it down it seems like the dems want the rich to stay rich and the poor to stay poor and i thought they wanted class equality ......................................

reply to post by redhatty


You are selfish.

That is all I have to say on this matter.

And if you're not Republican, it's obvious this selfishness is rubbing off on everyone else in the country.

Ask not what you can do for the country, ask the country to stay out of your bank account because you're selfish and don't care about anyone but yourself.

[edit on 28-9-2009 by Discordian Queen]

reply to post by redhatty


Simple - stop paying taxes.

Im not sure where you live, but have you ever thought fellow citizens dont enjoy you driving on their roads. Spending their tax dollars to fix the pot holes or resurface?

Maybe you would rather the government spend your taxes on free football game tickets and hot dogs every friday. Or we could start a movement to get skittles for everyone. But only to those that can afford private dental insurance
for the cavities they create.

Oh wait, heres a better one, I really dont like the leeches that use the internet and jack up the FCC taxes (local, federal and state). In fact, if you want to use the internet, then you should invent your own.

Oh yea, you didnt invent money. You didnt invent currency. And if you invented your own at some point, Im sure its worthless.

All money is borrowed. It all returns to its owner.

Ugh.

Originally posted by Discordian Queen

You are selfish.

That is all I have to say on this matter.

And if you're not Republican, it's obvious this selfishness is rubbing off on everyone else in the country.

Ask not what you can do for the country, ask the country to stay out of your bank account because you're selfish and don't care about anyone but yourself.

Wow... so millions of Americans don't want SOCIALIZED medicine where the GOVERNMENT has control over everything and this is somehow bad...

Oh, and the word Republican is so disgusting to some people such as yourself...

But hey, those who are ignorant have no idea that they live in a REPUBLIC, and Republicans are ADVOCATES OF THE REPUBLIC OF THE UNITED STATES.... But since there are those who never, in their whole life bothered to read the Declaration of Independence of the United States, and neither did they ever bother to read the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights within the Constitution, that they have to mirror their ignorance on those Americans who happen to be REPUBLICAN....

Being a Republican doesn't mean agreeing 100% with the way the Republican party is now... Being a Republican means we are still ADVOCATES OF THE REPUBLIC OF THE UNITED STATES, and don't want to see it become another Socialist dictatorship.....

[edit on 28-9-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by abraxasmu


Oooh, I see, so everyone is entitled to free things that are necessary right?...

So where is my free house? and my free car?.... After all, everyone needs a house and a car no?....

BTW, EVERYONE in America use streets, whether it is locally, which ALL Americans use, and then there are many Americans who use streets in other states whenever they go on vacation etc....

BTW, did any of you Obama healthcare supporters ever bothered to hear President Obama himself state quite clearly to an elder American lady that "she might be better continuing to use prescription drugs instead of having treatments, or the operation which the doctors say could very well help her?....

I guess he said that for the good of the sweet old lady, and not because he made deals with Big Pharma to, among other things, don't allow Congress to lower the cost of prescription drugs.....

Originally posted by Pathos
reply to post by realshanti

 

I believe in the natural order of things.
I believe in Darwin.
I am also a Christian.

He is 'solely' responsible for his own actions. Healthcare is not a given right. Its a privilege. He wants others to pay for his errors.

Life can be cold, ridged, and painful. If he was not being responsible in the first place, death would have been the consequence of his own undoing. Life is just. Its the natural order of all things.

Its not me who has to repent to. It is his creator.

Yes. Since I have seen the abyss several times, and I have accepted life's dark reality, I have no problem saying that its all about individual choice and responsibility.

No one can help him except for him.

[edit on 28-9-2009 by Pathos]

I call BS on your reply - why?- Cause I too have "been to the abyss" and fallen in Have a life threatening illness from which there is no escape and it is the help of friends, some medicare, some social security that I paid into for forty years and the love of God through those avenues, through those very human faces that have been there to lift me in my darkest hours - and before the social security kicked in and before Medicare kicked in it was still my brother and sister humans who helped me when I had no home, no health insurance, no money - no job and was literally dying -

I believe in the natural order of things as well - the natural order of things according to the Lord of Love and of Creation - the Lord of Salvation, who lifts up fallen men and women and restores them to their original perfection through the sacrament of baptism and His sanctifying Holy Spirit....That is the only natural order I recognize and I will never conform to the empty philosophy of survival of the fittest - when my Lord says "if your brother has need of your coat give him your cloak also" I believe that is more than just a nice suggestion...And just for the record it is not "life" that is just - it is God who is just as the above quote demonstrates.

Healthcare reform or no healthcare reform and regardless of ones religious beliefs or lack thereof- it is still people who help people and when that stops altogether we will be nothing more than narcissistic savages.

realshanti:

You can't believe how mean spirited and heartless people are .. and I can't believe how people like you can force your morality on other people. If you feel sympathetic to someone's plight, then sacrifice YOUR OWN resources. You're nothing more than a tyrant if you force others to fall in line with your beliefs ..

Originally posted by Guidance.Is.Internal
realshanti:

You can't believe how mean spirited and heartless people are .. and I can't believe how people like you can force your morality on other people. If you feel sympathetic to someone's plight, then sacrifice YOUR OWN resources. You're nothing more than a tyrant if you force others to fall in line with your beliefs ..

So... turning a blind eye to the suffering of your fellow man is moral in your opinion?
Or is it immoral and you simply accept that as your choice?

So you are basically a poster child for why we should not pay for other peoples health care as you do not seem very motivated to provide for yourself. Have had free healthcare does not seem to have improved your life but made you dependent on the freebies. Maybe if you did provide for yourself you might not have had the other problems.

I don't think there's any question that every American citizen should have access to affordable insurance. If I had any confidence in the ability of the government to provide this without making an absolute mess of it, I might even support a public health care option. Unfortunately, I have zero confidence that the Feds would be able to administer such a program for 300 million people and do so efficiently. I just have the unshakable feeling that billions of dollars would slip through the cracks annually and no amount of oversight could ever plug the gaps.

I am also concerned that, for every well-intentioned piece of legislation in this country, there are tremendous, totally unexpected repercussions. One only need look at HIPAA or Sarbanes-Oxley for examples of this. Some well-meaning Congressmen thought it would be a good-idea to protect our privacy. What they unleashed was a multi-billion dollar burden in paperwork and bureaucracy. It's so bad that, if your mother was in a hospital, they not only can't tell you her condition, they can't even tell you whether she's a patient there... surely something that neither Sarbanes nor Oxley ever imagined in their worst nightmares.

I would also be more likely to support a public option if I knew that the proposed legislation was authored by elected statesmen with the true best interests of the American public at heart. This, too, is hardly the truth. The legislation was penned by people with vested interests of many kinds and I would bet my last dollar that they don't give a damn about saving the life of a poor, recovering drug addict or even Mother Theresa.

My solution? Real major reform of the private insurance industry. These guys have decades of experience and they have a profit-motive that will keep them running their businesses efficiently. Do they need strong oversight and strong punitive incentives to do the right thing? Absolutely - and that is where the Feds can do the most good without breaking the bank.

I will say this - I don't think anyone should get healthcare for nothing. There is a certain lack of respect that goes along with "free" things. Everyone needs to have a little skin in the game to keep them from abusing whatever program is eventually developed.

S





[edit on 30-9-2009 by Skeptical01]

Originally posted by Guidance.Is.Internal
realshanti:

You can't believe how mean spirited and heartless people are .. and I can't believe how people like you can force your morality on other people. If you feel sympathetic to someone's plight, then sacrifice YOUR OWN resources. You're nothing more than a tyrant if you force others to fall in line with your beliefs ..

So let me get this straight you would rather force on people this morality????

-too bad so sad but if you made a bad choice or are not in a financial position to help yourself for whatever reason then you are sh*t outta luck- go off and die and leave my pocketbook alone cause my pocketbook which we worked hard for is the most important thing on the planet -

Just clarifying here - that is what you are proposing correct? Cause that would mean the deaths of thousands of people right now in this country and thats just the folks who have the disease I have - not even counting the thousands who have some other life threatening illness and cannot continue to stay alive without immediate weekly medical intervention...

I'd say "hard hearted and mean spirited" are generous terms to use in light of the consequences of such a philosophy - now if you want to debate the terms of the healthcare reform bill or come up with another alternative to medicare that is humane then go for it but as it stands your argument is bankrupt and immoral.

realshanti:

The difference is, I don't force my morality on anyone. You do.

And calling personal property "just a pocketbook" is like calling your mother "just a collection of molecules". What people like you always fail to point out is money, posessions, whatever - is stored work. In other words, LIFE. You're stealing life from other people to feed your own whims. Shame on you ...

Originally posted by SpacePunk

Originally posted by redhatty
reply to post by iamjesusphish

 

So, YOUR BAD CHOICES have been subsidized by my taxes.

You CHOSE to do drugs, and this caused health problems, but MY TAXES are paying for your rehab and your medical treatment.

Choices huh?

Let's go over choices.
Should a rock climber be covered if he/she falls and is injured? After all he made the bad choice of taking on a risky pursuit.

Everyone makes bad choices, injuries are usually related to those bad choices so, in your view, nobody should be covered.

Does redhatty smoke? Drink alcohol? Drive a car? Ride a motorbike? Ride a pushbike? Play sport? Use a gas BBQ? Work in a building containing asbestos? Own a cat? Own a dog? Catch public transport? Cross the road?

All of these can cause injuries and/or disease. If his/her private health insurance should rescind his/her cover and refuse to pay for treatment for any ailment arising from these activities, is that redhatty's fault for choosing to do these things?

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
[Does redhatty smoke? Drink alcohol? Drive a car? Ride a motorbike? Ride a pushbike? Play sport? Use a gas BBQ? Work in a building containing asbestos? Own a cat? Own a dog? Catch public transport? Cross the road?

All of these can cause injuries and/or disease. If his/her private health insurance should rescind his/her cover and refuse to pay for treatment for any ailment arising from these activities, is that redhatty's fault for choosing to do these things?

no, rarely, no, no, no, no, no, no, yes, yes, yes, yes. In reply to your questions

but your point is lost here. You are trying to equate an ACCIDENTAL injury to a CHOICE to become addicted to drugs.

NO ONE accidentally becomes a drug addict.

In case you are not aware, unless you are at fault in an accident, someone else has to pay your bills, it's called liability. Part of what auto & home insurance is to protect you from.

If you are going to engage in "high risk" behavior, personal responsibility requires you to be sure you have the contingencies for accidents covered, as much as foresee-ably possible.

Originally posted by Guidance.Is.Internal
realshanti:

The difference is, I don't force my morality on anyone. You do.

And calling personal property "just a pocketbook" is like calling your mother "just a collection of molecules". What people like you always fail to point out is money, posessions, whatever - is stored work. In other words, LIFE. You're stealing life from other people to feed your own whims. Shame on you ...

You have lost your mind and your soul if you think that life threatening illnesses are a whim!!
Truly your are lost if you think that your possessions are the fullness of LIFE - part of what makes life worth living is the love we show for others - and not just those that are close to us - and for the record yes you do force your morality on everyone you turn a blind eye to when they are in need - your actions have consequences which I outlined above. I understand not being able or willing to help all the time in every circumstance but to make a life principle out of turning your back on the sick and the helpless is unconscionable.

reply to post by Angus123


Its not turning a blind eye... "The worst atrocities are committed under the guise of helping the many" you thought the economy was bad now ... imagine when you fine every consumer 700 per year imagine when you erase competition from the healthcare market ... worst part is we have already proped up 2 huge companies ... any positive growth in the market today is bolstered ... cooked books that everyone knows of... its like bypassing regulators and at the same time making it so that there is no real recovery
my 2 cents

reply to post by realshanti


any one of those 30 million people you think has a life threatening disease would rather eat and have a home , meaning your argument is nill the same as with anyone who argues that people who oppose health care is soulless ... You and your groupies aren't looking at the bigger picture ... and its sad that you do 30 million people a great disservice

Originally posted by conspiracyrus
reply to post by realshanti

 

any one of those 30 million people you think has a life threatening disease would rather eat and have a home , meaning your argument is nill the same as with anyone who argues that people who oppose health care is soulless ... You and your groupies aren't looking at the bigger picture ... and its sad that you do 30 million people a great disservice

You are totally missing the point - I 'm not arguing for this particular healthcare bill - but I am arguing for a humane and compassionate view of the sanctity of human life -
And yes - I know for a fact that hundreds of thousands of people have the same disease I have and without medicare we would be dead - I paid into this plan and social security for forty years and you are telling me I don't have the right to the healthcare that medicare provides me??? and that I am imposing my morals on you and doing YOU a disservice??? Sorry but your reasoning is completely illogical and without foundation...

And by the way - I have no problem with the pennies that came out of my paycheck to help others over the years cause I never did mind sharing my toys, money or anything else - I'm sorry that you don't agree with this philosophy but I believe in helping others in need - simple as that...

Originally posted by conspiracyrus
reply to post by Angus123

 

Its not turning a blind eye... "The worst atrocities are committed under the guise of helping the many" you thought the economy was bad now ... imagine when you fine every consumer 700 per year imagine when you erase competition from the healthcare market ... worst part is we have already proped up 2 huge companies ... any positive growth in the market today is bolstered ... cooked books that everyone knows of... its like bypassing regulators and at the same time making it so that there is no real recovery
my 2 cents

I get what your saying - and I am not as I have stated over and over- NOT arguing for this particular health-care reform bill or even medicare though it seems to have functioned efficiently so far and I certainly have benefited from it - but I am arguing for a world view that includes compassion for the poor and the sick and yes - even for those who have made some crappy choices and need some help to turn their lives around to become productive citizens again....All of these systems need more oversight, and perhaps overhaul but I don't resent being asked to help...some do resent it and thats where we disagree...

The "worst atrocities committed in the name of helping the many" in this and the last century were executed under atheistic regimes[for the most part] who did NOT view the sanctity of human life as an important corner stone of their civilization - however we handle the goal of health-care and caring for the poor that principle [the sanctity of human life] must remain in place or we will lose the foundation on which this nation was founded - LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - Life is the first principle and though happiness is not guaranteed, if one is alive it is much easier to pursue and hopefully receive help when the chips are down.

I agree with this thread and this is only my 2nd post I believe after lurking for a long time. I had life saving brain surgery and only had a 53% chance of survival. This happened in 2006. Now I cant get health insurance. I won the battle and now have another upon me because of our health system. I go through pain that most people cannot fathom. Yet I cant get help for it. I agree with the OP. COMPLETELY!