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I am 23, an American Citizen with government run health care.

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posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 06:34 AM
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reply to post by VinceP1974
 


Interesting ... Warren Buffet just allocated a good chunk of money into Pharmas...


I don't blame the foundations for being super cautious.. they lost a ton of money in the stock markets.. then the Federal Government managed to screw them out of a few billion in GM/Chrysler bonds. No remorse.. even for the largest charity in the world...

reply to post by FlyersFan
 


Well.. it might be good for him.. I think that would technically make him the slave owner right?
Imagine if it passes... in the past two years the Federal Government will have:

Given every American $300 to spend where ever..
Bought over 400,000 cars for Americans..
Gave away an additional years worth of unemployment benefits to several million people..
Bought two car companies..
Bought every major financial institution..
provided free health care..
Enact programs for mortgage assistance..
Print a record number of dollars
Supply the 3 largest emergency spending bills in American history..

Oh how the list goes on..

All the while collecting half as much taxes as the year before.


It's like if you listen closely.. you can hear the bag pipes in the background playing while the country goes down in flames and everyone is looking in the opposite direction clueless as to what's happening..




posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 06:37 AM
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Originally posted by VinceP1974

Originally posted by zerbot565
speaking about how to use tax money and budgets , i just read that u.s marine corps uses about 80 million euros worth of gasoline daily in afganistan.

money that can be used for healthcare in stead of having a party out in the desert just so that every generation on americans can say they ve been in war.



Yeah that's why we're there.



in 10 days thats about a billion dollars spent on gasoline.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 06:40 AM
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Originally posted by VinceP1974

Originally posted by zerbot565
speaking about how to use tax money and budgets , i just read that u.s marine corps uses about 80 million euros worth of gasoline daily in afganistan.

money that can be used for healthcare in stead of having a party out in the desert just so that every generation on americans can say they ve been in war.



Yeah that's why we're there.



When I think of Afghanistan I just don't think Marine .. nothing water based about it.. I imagine in a few decades they will be perplexed as to why the Marines were stationed in a desert for a decade .. and the footage of the Marines in their water landing crafts rolling through the desert into Baghdad will be classic..

And my generation.. we really feel cheated. Iraq? Common, it's been done by the last generation.. couldn't be somewhere new and exciting like .. Australia..



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by redhatty
How does NOT CHOOSING to enable the leeches to the system equate to not supporting human life?

Please explain how your thought process goes from one statement to that conclusion.


It's simple: Because you can't afford health care does not mean you are leeching from the system. You apparently don't recognise that and based on that your opposition becomes a general 'I don't want to contribute to the bill of other people's healthcare', in which case you're not supporting life, clearly.

And you know, honestly, even if you are, I'm not sure that means you deserve to die in pain.



Did you miss the post about how I worked as a health care provider & am studying to be licensed as a naturopath/homeopath practitioner??

Yep, I am such an example of someone who doesn't support human life, I am spending my time and money to get licensed to heal people by alternative methods.


Did I miss it? I just didn't care. It's irrelivant.

If you're so pro-human life and pro-healing, then I guess you don't have an issue with people in general, even the lazy ones, being healed. Right?

Studying that makes no odds. Perhaps your sole interest was in the money in that field, for all I know. In which case your opposition to general health for the populous could just as easily be explained that way.

What it comes down to is this. Do the poor deserve to live in poorer health? Are you better than someone with a lower salary? Just because you can afford health care, does that mean you have a greater right to it?



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 09:17 AM
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That sounds pretty mean spirited, my friend. Have you ever been poor and tried to obtain treatment? I would much rather see my tax dollars going to help people than to corrupt military contractors. As a former addict myself I can tell you that the money spent on treatment gets paid back many times over. By the way mine was through private insurance but I know many addicts and alcoholics who got another chance at life through the government and are today procuctive citizens paying taxes. Never be quick to judge unless you have been there yourself.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 09:37 AM
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Originally posted by otheym
That sounds pretty mean spirited, my friend. Have you ever been poor and tried to obtain treatment? I would much rather see my tax dollars going to help people than to corrupt military contractors. As a former addict myself I can tell you that the money spent on treatment gets paid back many times over. By the way mine was through private insurance but I know many addicts and alcoholics who got another chance at life through the government and are today procuctive citizens paying taxes. Never be quick to judge unless you have been there yourself.


Odd isn't it? We drop a bunch of bombs on third world nations and call it freedom, but when we try to provide a health insurance option to the poor people of this country, it gets called fascism or socialism.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 09:52 AM
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Originally posted by redhatty
reply to post by iamjesusphish
 


Oh no, far from ignorant. I have seen many a people who are addicted to pharma drugs. It is still a CHOICE you made.

Just because a pain killer is prescribed does NOT MEAN you HAVE to take it. There are ways to learn to deal with pain that can reduce the amount of drugs you need to manage it, but again, that too is a CHOICE.


On the contrary, everyone is entitled to feel better, and if a doctor perscribes you something addictive, and you become addicted, as I've seen happen to the best of us many times, we don't suddenly turn our backs on these people.

There's far too much Stick-In-Butt syndrom around here, its like half the country understands hard times having been there and supports the healthcare bill, and the other half has had this easy high horse lifestyle and thinks they're entitled to the exclusive right of good health by being up right now. I got news for you, # happens, and sometimes its not possible to 'save your own life' so to speak.

It truly disgusts me to be an American sometimes when I see there's still such widespread discrimination rampant in America but like all discrimination, the natrual progression of humans is to unify and those who refuse to accept that go the way of the dinosaurs. I paid 41% of my income to various govt crap, and I paid for my healthcare out of the remaining 59%.

It hurt me spiritually knowing so very much of my income was being used to kill brown people instead of save American lives, its just sad. The think I keep in mind is like all things evil, they don't last forever, the selfish and bigoted of the world are a dieing breed and if America is anything, its progressive. Hang in there brothers.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 10:05 AM
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reply to post by iamjesusphish
 



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 10:08 AM
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Originally posted by Annee
The fact that anyone wants to deny others health care boggles the mind.

What does that say about humans?

I can't get past that - let alone discuss it.



It really messes with my head a bit too.

Here we have the most religious and wealthiest nation on earth that mostly professes to follow christian teaching.

Yet many would appear to resent setting some money aside for someone else to get medical aid and would rather run the risk of being ripped of by an insurance company and not getting treated themselves.

Is it me ? Am I nuts ?

Surely if everyone st aside a little for someone else then everybody wins ?

The extortionate profits that the insurance companies make would more than cover anyone without the ability to pay into the pot for whatever reason.

Why hasn't jesus been dumped a a socialist commi pinko ?



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 10:12 AM
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Originally posted by moocowman

Originally posted by Annee
The fact that anyone wants to deny others health care boggles the mind.

What does that say about humans?

I can't get past that - let alone discuss it.



It really messes with my head a bit too.

Here we have the most religious and wealthiest nation on earth that mostly professes to follow christian teaching.

Yet many would appear to resent setting some money aside for someone else to get medical aid and would rather run the risk of being ripped of by an insurance company and not getting treated themselves.

Is it me ? Am I nuts ?

Surely if everyone st aside a little for someone else then everybody wins ?

The extortionate profits that the insurance companies make would more than cover anyone without the ability to pay into the pot for whatever reason.

Why hasn't jesus been dumped a a socialist commi pinko ?





Do one nice thing for someone else every day for a week. Do it without reward or thanks. Then, imagine how great the world would be if everyone else did the same thing, even just for a week.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 10:25 AM
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reply to post by iamjesusphish
 


Wow, I just joined today, after getting the forum posts for a little while, so pardon my clumsiness.
Anywho, I'm a disabled vet and get all my medical care courtesy of the VA. The big bugaboo, government-run healthcare, ooga booga, at least that's how I hear government-run healthcare being characgterized by the teabaggers and those who decry big government. And you know what? The care I receive is first rate. I wish that every citizen in this country could be afforded the same medical care. There is, I believe, in the first part of the Constitution, the line, "to promote the general welfare". While "welfare" has been, of late, demonized by the conservatives, it does not mean public assistance. "Welfare" in this context means, to me, at least, the well-being of the population, as in "pursiut of happiness". And come to think about it, good health of the citizenry would also promote the general welfare of the entire country. So, in essence, healthcare is a right, divinely endowed by our Creator(in whatever form or guise you believe
Him/Her/It to be[1st Amend.]). I'm sure that there will be those in this forum who will excoriate me for this viewpoint, so be it.

We, as a country, must needs change the current healthcare system. People talk about how the government will ration healthcare, guess what? It already is being rationed. By the health insurance outfits. And not "for the good of all", but for a much darker reason: profits. The healthcare insurance outfits make their money from the premiums paid into. When one is ill, or in need of catastrophic care, profits are diminished, so it behooves the healthcare insurance outfits to deny care at will. Sure, they pay out, gotta look good to the rubes, y'know. But if more than a relative minority require full use of the coverage, the stockholders will scream that they are losing their gold-plated shirts, and we can't have that, now, can we? So, instead of faceless bureaucrat coming between the physician and patient, it is the faceless colourless bean counter who comes between the physician and patient. And accountants, in their grey flannel armour are a much worse species of critter than the faceless bureaucrat. Just sayin', y'know.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 10:39 AM
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Originally posted by schrodingers dog
reply to post by Double Eights
 


It's really too late at night for me to have to explain again the fundamental concepts of "society," "scarcity," and the resulting "social contract."

You premise is simply flawed.

Think of it this way ...

Once upon a time there were four people in a room and there were four apples.
The next day they came back and Rockpuck was standing there, as he does.

5 people 4 apples = scarcity

They started fighting about the apples which made them fearful.
So they decided to agree on a system to distribute the apples.

Thus scarcity > Social contract which = distribution of wealth by definition.

Now, take that example and apply it to human history.

All "societies," be they political, religious, or anything else based are by definition distributors of wealth. This is why this who "socialism" crap is ignorant to the core btw, but that's another conversation.

Anyhoot, that's all I can muster right now. Hopefully you will see the train of thought, the resulting social human evolution, and why your premise is not apt.

Like it or not, you are born into this social contract to which you are bound to.

If you really want to know a secret, it's not really YOUR money, just your relative mind conceived prison.


Edit to argh: That came off a little more patronizing than I intended. Sorriez.


[edit on 15 Aug 2009 by schrodingers dog]


Except, in this example, I don't have a gun to my head telling me to share my apple.

If I don't pay the taxes to support your healthcare, I have the barrel of a gun shoved down my throat by the police.

You're talking about sharing, which I am not opposed to. I AM opposed to theft, a concept you (and many others) don't seem to be able to grasp.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 11:17 AM
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A lot of posters to this thread that are against taxpayer provided universal healthcare assume those that go without healthcare or employment are doing so voluntarily. IMO nothing could be further from the truth. Everyone here should try and understand that we are participants in a never-ending war between the Classes of society.

Capital (monied investor class) and labor (working class) people have been fighting this war for as long as societies have existed and we are currently witnessing a battle being won by the Capitalist class. This will eventually be followed by a labor uprising and much bloodshed and strife for all classes. A short period of peace will follow and then the cycle will repeat itself.

Capital, having the majority of the assets will eventually purchase all the major media and government institutions in a society. They will use these assets to purchace a portion of the working class creating a bourgeois class. The bourgeois class is used to control the rest of society by proxy. Here are the leaders of your society that you can see. Your Business owners and Politicians. Your Judges and Jailors (ie, military and other government workers). The Working class tend to confuse the Bourgeois class with the Capital class, hence the endless play known as politics and the belief that we can vote our way to a solution.

The Working class have watched Their manufacturing jobs outsourced to China and India, Mexico and South America, with those jobs went Their healthcare and retirement. They are left with a sham finance industry currently being propped up by the Capitalist owned government or a service industry where they compete with with illegal labor for minimum wage and no benefits. Its only a matter of time before the destruction of the middle class reaches a critical point where violence is inevitable.

I want to focus awarness to the fact that we have been divided by the Capitalist and we must not waste our energy arguing over pointless things such as this. The debt that everyone uses to oppose funding for healthcare is not real. Its part of an illusion created to control and turn you against your neighbor. Lets stop fighting ourselves and work together to find real solutions.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 11:26 AM
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reply to post by Mourninwoody
 


Whether or not someone else can afford their own insurance is not a matter of concern to me.

I pay for coverage my myself, my wife, and my son.

Having money stolen from me under the guise of taxation and redistributed to pay for coverage for others is simply unconstitutional, wrong, and would be against the law if done by any other entity except government.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 11:33 AM
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Sounds at least like both Parties are getting the message that they need to work together and get a bill both parties can support. At least they are talking about talking to each other again. Maybe they can work out a *gasp* Bipartisan Bill.

Nancy Pelosi must be biting her tongue.......



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 11:49 AM
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reply to post by pavil
 


Yep, looks like they are listening, and realized if they shoved this through they'd have hell to pay. Way to go people, let's make ourselves heard!



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by suicydking
when we try to provide a health insurance option to the poor people of this country, it gets called fascism or socialism.

Under Obamacare, that's what it is.

As I have said many times ... I don't mind voluntarily helping those who have cancer, or those who have asthma, or those who find themselves temporarily in a difficult position, etc etc. We DO help as best we can through private charities. However, i have a BIG problem with throwing money into a gov't entity who in turn is supposedly helping people on the other end (I doubt it gets there) ... AND ... considering the massive numbers of people who milk the system for a free ride, I REALLY don't want my $$ going in that direction.

People have made welfare and foodstamps and free medical care a way of life instead of a temporary situation. I understand that for some it is necessary. But a hell of a lot of people screw us with this system ...



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by redhatty
 


That comment is extremely UNFAIR!! So in saying that you must include ppl who smoke b/c we are paying for their "cancer" treatment.. ppl who drink and paying for their alcoholism.. ppl who overeat and paying for their treatment of Diabetes and gastric bypass surgery.. ppl who get into car accidents while talking on their cell phones and we have to pay for them to be AirLifted to the nearest hospital.. ppl rock climbing up a 90degree incline and drop 100feet and have to pay to repel mountaineers down the cliff to save them... Do I need to go on?? Or is it that you just can't come to realize that this country is more willing to drop bombs on another country than treat its own citizens with health insurance..

I do appreciate Medicaid or Medicare and am willing to pay for it with my taxes b/c I know that atleast if some of my money goes to Medicaid, Medicare I am helping someone else! This is also b/c I was on Medicaid at one point when I was sick and couldn't afford regular insrurance, then got Medicare when I got my disability... AND It wasn't b/c of poor choices, nor should it matter!

It is your rhetoric that is the poor choice.. this person is admitting she/he had a drug problem and I, for one admire and respect that.. what you just did was throw the book at all recovering addicts my friend and secured their fate by throwing more bigotry beliefs at someone who has more respect for oneself and humanity than for those who are against Governmental Health programs!

People need to realize these so called "Facts" they hear about horror stories in Canada or England are so far from the truth.. and if you are in this website, you may have a belief that the media is a bit selective about how it reports its news. I have relatives in England, not one of them agrees with anything this country is saying about their National Health Plan.. The facts we hear about how horrible their health plans are, are just overexxagerated and only bits of truth.. Of course you will have ppl who will complain or these unfortunate horror stories.. but a country is not recognized by its weatlh, unless it can treat its own poor and unhealthy..

I for one am actually against a Universal Health Care plan b/c this country hands down, can not afford it. Yes, medicaid and medicare are better than nothing but everything these politicians touch, they screw it up b/c they think they can borrow and use the money however they please.. but, atleast it is a step in the right direction!!!



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 11:59 AM
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reply to post by Mourninwoody
 



Very insightful, indeed !!!!



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by suicydking
when we try to provide a health insurance option to the poor people of this country, it gets called fascism or socialism.

Under Obamacare, that's what it is.

As I have said many times ... I don't mind voluntarily helping those who have cancer, or those who have asthma, or those who find themselves temporarily in a difficult position, etc etc. We DO help as best we can through private charities. However, i have a BIG problem with throwing money into a gov't entity who in turn is supposedly helping people on the other end (I doubt it gets there) ... AND ... considering the massive numbers of people who milk the system for a free ride, I REALLY don't want my $$ going in that direction.

People have made welfare and foodstamps and free medical care a way of life instead of a temporary situation. I understand that for some it is necessary. But a hell of a lot of people screw us with this system ...


So what it fundamentally comes down to is a question of:

1 - Providing health care to everyone who needs it, while some are going to abuse the system

or

2 - Ignoring those who are unfortunate enough to not have health insurance so we don't spend any more money.

Money vs Caring for our lowest class of citizens.


Let me ask you something. Are there corporations who abuse our defense budget? Are there deals made with the specific intention of milking that chunk of our deficit (which is largely unreported) that do not benefit us as a nation? Why are so many people against something that will help millions of people, but are curiously silent when it comes to the real cash drain on our country? You could provide health insurance to the entire nation for a fraction of what we hand out to contractors every year.



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