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I am 23, an American Citizen with government run health care.

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posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 03:13 AM
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reply to post by Chronogoblin
 


I'm not opposed to helping, I'm simply opposed to government enforced "helping"

Wouldnt you rather put money into a health savings account to help those you are close to than to have your money stolen and given to someone you dont know?




posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 03:14 AM
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reply to post by Chronogoblin
 


All I know is... load up on Pharma stocks buddy. When the bill passes and the Gov is buying all the poor all the medication they desire at premium prices Pharma is gunna explode..



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 03:15 AM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


You didn't answer my question. Or even better yet, how would you do it?



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 03:19 AM
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Originally posted by Dbriefed
Health care is not a right. Healthcare is a science developed by man. It's science leveraged by technology that is paid for with money. Any science and technology costs money. Just because the science exists doesn't mean it belongs to everyone and the labor of applying that science should be free.

My paycheck is mine. I am not obligated to share it with anyone. The government forcibly takes their 'taste' of my salary before I can get my share of my paycheck. I am not obligated to share my hard earned salary with beggars, drug addicts, or others.

There are 140 Million employed people in the US.
There are 305 Million people living in the US.
How much of the salary of the 140 Million people will it take to pay the medical bills of 305 Million?

What if healthcare becomes a legal human right?
There are 2.1 Billion people in China.
There are 1.9 Billion people in India.

Are we 140 Million people going to pay for the rest of the world?


You claim that health care should not be a right, yet what about the family with a child who suffers from a debilitating illness that requires constant treatment that this same family just cannot afford to provide.

Perhaps you should state your beliefs to my grandfather who has undergone years of dialysis treatment that has helped to prolong his life. He has never looked happier or healthier. If it weren't for our health care system here in Canada, he more than likely would not have been able to afford his treatment and would have been gone a long time ago.

What if, God forbid, you lost your job, or some other unforeseen circumstance occurred that prevented you from saving or prolonging the life of one of your loved ones who was suddenly stricken ill?

Perhaps these are all situations that you should think about before making the claim that health care for everyone shouldn't be a right.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 03:22 AM
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Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by Rockpuck
 


You didn't answer my question. Or even better yet, how would you do it?


Let the States come up with their own solutions.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 03:27 AM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


And the corporations don't have their hands in state government's pies as well as federal? My point is simple. Corruption is rife through out this government at all levels.

[edit on 16-8-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 03:37 AM
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reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
 


Immaterial. The States are Micromanaged.. if fraud is detected it's a million times easier to correct than the giant behemoth that is the FEDERAL government.





And it's inline with the Constitution.... if that matters to you at all.

(Governors are impeached far more often than Presidents...)



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 03:47 AM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


Ah, so state governments are incorruptable while the federal government quite obviously isn't.
How idealistic.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 04:00 AM
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reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
 


Not at all. State corruption is much easier to fix than Federal corruption...



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 04:03 AM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


Not really. Just state corruption is considered small potatoes where as federal corruption is considered "the big time".



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 04:19 AM
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reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
 


...hardly. Ask anyone in business.. which is more effective "Micro-management ....... or Macro-management..."




posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 05:09 AM
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Originally posted by astrij

Originally posted by TheAftermath
reply to post by astrij
 



Using tax dollars to fund healthcare is unconstitutional.

Case closed.


The patriot act is unconstitutional. The federal reserve is unconstitutional. The lack of representation should be unconstitutional. Pandering to corporations should be unconstitutional. All of these issues and more received barely a whisper from the majority of Americans.

Why the sudden outrage about the state's usurpation of the constitution in regards to health care reform that would actually benefit millions of American's? The disrespect for the constitution by your government has been ongoing for decades now and has been given very little, if any attention.

Well, very little attention other than from us "kooks" here at ATS of course.


I'm pretty new here, but I know people have been fighting the patriot act for years now, The only difference is peoples voices are getting louder and stronger as more things to opress us build up.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 05:11 AM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
 


Not at all. State corruption is much easier to fix than Federal corruption...


What about county corruption, when you are the only one fighting it?



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 05:40 AM
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www.americanthinker.com...
August 16, 2009
Manufactured Healthcare Crisis
By James Simpson
These are perilous times. Last November's election of Barack Obama and a veto-proof majority of Democrats in both houses allowed a virulent cabal to capture our nation's seat of power. As with the Democrat takeover of Congress in 2006, it was a disaster of epic proportions. With one shocking, enormous, blatantly partisan, self-serving and destructive proposal following on the heels of another, the sheer enormity of their power grab defies description. But as each new proposal moves forward, the hand of the Crisis Strategy becomes clear.


If there were ever any doubt that Barack Obama personifies the Crisis Strategy, it should long since have been removed for anyone with a mind. Since so many Americans seem to have lost theirs, I address this to the rest of you. For with God's help, it is you and I, not our gutless, hapless, corrupt politicians, nor our sleeping populus that will save this country or allow it to fall.


For those of you who aren't familiar with it, the Crisis Strategy was the brainchild of two radical socialist college professors, Richard Cloward and Frances Fox Piven. The idea was to overwhelm government with demands for services to the point where the system would collapse and provide an opening for the socialists to take over. Their strategy was behind creation of the National Welfare Rights Organization in the 1960s and 1970s which dramatically increased the welfare roles and caused the near bankruptcy of New York City in 1975; creation of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN), prime instigators of the mortgage meltdown; the national Motor Voter law signed by President Clinton in 1993, which opened the floodgates to vote fraud by ACORN and similar groups; and the illegal immigrant amnesty movement. As we all should know by now, Barack Obama worked with and trained ACORN workers for many years.


Healthcare nationalization is a major component of this strategy. As Lenin said, "Medicine is the keystone of the arch of socialism." The Left has agitated as far back as the 1930s for some kind of socialized healthcare system. Their dream was partially realized with creation of Medicare and Medicaid in 1965. The stated goal of these programs was to provide comprehensive healthcare for seniors and the poor. As the programs grew, the Left clamored for ever more benefits to these groups and ever expanding definitions of covered individuals. Illegal immigration, also encouraged by the Left, has contributed to a rapidly growing pool of beneficiaries.


Like any free good, demand for services under these programs has skyrocketed. Spending levels were insignificant in the early years, but today Medicare and Medicaid today comprise 36 percent of total US healthcare spending.


Medicare was originally to be funded with "Hospital Insurance" (HI) premiums tacked onto the Social Security FICA tax. No one seriously believed the HI tax would cover all costs. And despite quadrupling the HI tax rate from 0.7 percent to 2.9 percent, it hasn't. Today HI taxes cover a mere 40 percent of Medicare spending. About 21 percent comes from premiums paid by beneficiaries and other sources. Fully 39 percent comes from general revenues (i.e. you and me, pal.) Citation here.


Medicaid is funded roughly 50/50 by federal and state governments. As an essentially free benefit to the poor, Medicaid has no tax associated with it, so it is covered by state and federal income tax revenues -- that's you and me again, sucker. In 2006, Medicaid spending alone totaled $314 billion. For perspective, this is roughly equivalent to the baseline defense budget (i.e. excluding war spending like for Iraq/Afghanistan). State Medicaid programs are the largest single recipient of all federal grants, comprising 43 percent of the total.


In 2008, federal Medicaid and Medicare spending totaled $676 billion. Comprising only 2 percent of the federal budget in 1967, these two programs today consume 23 percent of total federal spending. This is the largest component of the federal budget, even exceeding total wartime outlays for national defense.


Corrected for inflation, total federal and state government spending on healthcare has increased by 1,791 percent since Medicaid and Medicare funding began in 1967. That is a real annual growth rate of 44 percent, over 10 times the annual rate of economic growth for the same period![1]


All these effects were predicted by economists, and we were repeatedly warned. The Left knew.


These spiraling costs have to be covered somehow. The Left knew this too. Besides raiding the General Fund, the federal government has used its monopsony power to strong arm ever greater price concessions from the healthcare industry. Medicare and Medicaid reimburse doctors a small and shrinking portion of the fees they charge. Private insurance on the other hand, provides a larger reimbursement, and uninsured individuals who do not qualify for the government programs pay full price. These prices are much higher than they would be in absence of the government programs because medical providers have to recoup their costs somehow. And because the pool of Medicare and Medicaid recipients continues to grow, prices keep going up.

For example, the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons recently responded to President Obama's wildly false claim that Surgeons charge "$30,000, $40,000 [or] $50,000" for a foot amputation. Instead they say, "Medicare reimbursements to physicians for foot amputations range from approximately $700 to $1200 which includes the follow up care the surgeon provides to the patient up to 90 days after the operation." That is simply outrageous!

Private insurance on the other hand, provides a larger reimbursement, and uninsured individuals who do not qualify for the government programs pay full price. These prices are much higher than they would be in absence of the government programs because medical providers have to recoup their costs somehow. And because the pool of Medicare and Medicaid recipients continues to grow, prices keep going up.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 05:43 AM
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So while private citizens pay the lion's share of taxes to fund Medicare and Medicaid, we are also cross-subsidizing these government programs through higher insurance premiums than we would otherwise pay. This is a primary reason medical care has become more expensive.


The left has attacked the private healthcare system from another angle as well: malpractice lawsuits. It has gone largely unreported in the mass media, but the dramatic expansion of all forms of liability lawsuits since the 1960s is the result of a deliberate, organized effort by leftist law professors to turn civil courts into agents of income redistribution. By undermining contract law and expanding the definition of liability - ideas advocated at leading law schools -- legal precedents have allowed trial lawyers to pick the pockets of American business as never before. Liability costs have skyrocketed as a result.


We see the consequences of their handiwork directly in the increased cost of products, liability insurance of all kinds, and the decline or in some cases elimination of domestic industries. According to a study performed by the Pacific Research Institute (PRI), the United States pays out $589 billion per year in excessive tort litigation. That is approximately 5 percent of GDP and costs a family of four on average about $8,000 per year.


Glorified ambulance chaser and Democratic Presidential Candidate John Edwards made his millions suing doctors for procedures that are inherently risky, and greatly increased jury awards by also suing nurses, anesthesiologists, hospitals and anyone else he could think of. The following words are from one doctor:



"The John Edwards we know crushed [obstetrics, gynecology] and neurosurgery in North Carolina," said Dr. Craig VanDerVeer, a Charlotte neurosurgeon. "As a result, thousands of patients lost their health care."


Following are some statistics on medical malpractice liability from the PRI report:


•Approximately $124 billion dollars is spent annually by the health care profession to avoid medical liability.
•About $30 billion more is spent on direct liability lawsuit costs.
•Malpractice liability cost is 1 percent of GDP and increases the cost of healthcare by approximately 7 percent.
•These added costs deny health insurance coverage to between 2.4 and 4.3 million people, according to the Department of Health and Human Services.


The increasing costs of medical care resulting from Medicare, Medicaid and the dramatic growth of malpractice lawsuits have provided activists with the rationale they need to agitate for socialized medicine.

This has been their strategy all along.

Medicare and Medicaid were designed to undermine private healthcare, making it ever more expensive and unmanageable, until enough interest could be generated for systemic change. Similarly, changes in tort law aimed at turning our courts into vehicles for income redistribution have overburdened our legal system with massive caseloads and the highest liability costs in the world.


While doubtless many thought they were doing good, the ultimate goal, as elucidated by the Left, has everywhere and always been Socialism.


Furthermore, they grossly overstate the problem. We hear constantly about the "47 million uninsured." These figures include 10 to 25 million illegal immigrants, 14 million people who are already eligible for medical benefits but haven't availed themselves, and 10 million people earning $75,000 or more who could presumably afford their own insurance if they chose to. Even assuming the lowest estimate for illegal immigrants, the true number of uninsured would be only 13 million. Yet the Democrats want to nationalize the entire industry, currently 17 percent of GDP, to provide benefits to 4 percent of the U.S. population.


And while medical costs increase due largely to government manufactured problems, shrinking returns in the healthcare industry put doctors and hospitals out of business. Meanwhile, the astronomical cost of medical school plus this increasingly hostile atmosphere toward the private medical market is turning more and more qualified people away from the medical field entirely. Costs increase while supply decreases, the classic consequence of government intervention.


Yet Obama and the brain-dead Democrat Congress want to give us a government-run system that will guarantee magnitudes more of the same.


Can you see the Left laughing at you?


However, their true motives have finally been exposed. For seniors ObamaCare essentially advocates euthanasia. Benefits will be drastically cut, and in some cases will become completely unavailable. As Obama said publicly: "Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller." In other words, if you think you are going to die anyway, why don't you just save us the money and go ahead...


For others it will mean a dramatic reduction in both the availability and quality of care. Obama's health policy advisor Ezekiel Emmanuel (brother of Rahm Emmanuel) admits as much. He even wants doctors to reconsider the Hippocratic Oath:



Amazingly, Dr. Emanuel criticizes the Hippocratic Oath as partly to blame for the "overuse" of medical care: "Medical school education and post graduate education emphasize thoroughness," he wrote. Physicians take the "Hippocratic Oath's admonition to 'use my power to help the sick to the best of my ability and judgment' as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of the cost or effects on others." (Journal of the American Medical Association, June 18, 2008.) Of course that is what patients hope their doctors will do. But Dr. Emanuel wants doctors to look beyond the needs of their own patient and consider social justice (emphasis mine.) They should think about whether the money being spent on their patient could be better spent elsewhere.


Who are these people?


The Left has relentlessly insisted for decades that we pay every penny for care of indigents, the poor, illegals and elderly to the point where hospitals are closing their doors because they can no longer afford it. But once given the opportunity to transfer this responsibility to the government, their message to the elderly and the rest of us is essentially: drop dead!



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 05:44 AM
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-Last Part-

Let me put this as bluntly as possible. The Left has never cared about the elderly or the poor, but ruthlessly uses them as part of their long-term strategy to overburden private healthcare until it ultimately collapses. The same Leftists who so passionately demanded free healthcare for all now want euthanasia for seniors and dramatically lower services for the rest of us. It is a power grab, pure and simple. There is nothing more to it.


The Dems won't cut benefits to the poor just yet though, because they still need their votes. Later on they will need them as hired muscle. But once they secure unchallengeable power, do you think they'll care? They have willfully worked to destroy every beneficial thing in our society. These are vicious, selfish, utterly corrupt parasites. They have spent a lifetime abandoned to a philosophy that makes excuses for everything and anything in the service of one ultimate goal: absolute power.


These people have to be stopped.


I went to Senator Ben Cardin's town hall meeting last Monday and came across a woman who had worked as a nurse in Britain's public health system. She provided a personal anecdote that is little peek into what is to come should we adopt the Democrats' plan. Catherine Midkiff, RN RSN, has been a nurse since 1979 and lived in the UK in 1991 and 1992. She earned $10 per hour there, compared to the $22 per hour then being earned by nurses in the US. As an agency night-shift nurse she earned more than staff nurses. Those women had to live in a dormitory on site as their pay would not afford them private residences. She said at St. George's Hospital she worked on a seniors ward where 23 elderly men and women shared the same room. When she asked where the code cart was, her British counterparts laughed, saying, "Oh you must be from America..." For non-seniors, most British hospitals put six people in a room. Wait lists are extremely long. An elderly British citizen she knew came to the US to get heart surgery after waiting a full year in the UK system. Others weren't so lucky.


For his part, Cardin simply perpetuated the smear against Obamacare protesters, claiming they were Republican stooges spreading disinformation. However, there were over 2,000 of us and only a handful of ACORN, union and party thugs. That we are no longer being fooled is becoming more and more apparent. The Dems control both houses of Congress so this remains an uphill battle, but if enough get the message that their careers are on the line, these utterly self-serving pols may actually come around to our point of view, simply for sheer survival purposes.


We cannot let up. Not for a minute.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 05:56 AM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Chronogoblin
 


All I know is... load up on Pharma stocks buddy. When the bill passes and the Gov is buying all the poor all the medication they desire at premium prices Pharma is gunna explode..



All of Bill Gates' foundations and charities have sold all their positions in all medical and pharmaceutical companies last week.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 06:15 AM
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reply to post by iamjesusphish
 


Leech.

Your demand that I work and then hand my hard earned money over to support you is slavery. Nothing more.

If I WISH to do so, that is different. (and we do support different organizations that help) But to DEMAND that I support you because of your own bad choices .... that's turning me into a slave and that would be letting you leech ... and that isn't good for either one of us.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 06:21 AM
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speaking about how to use tax money and budgets , i just read that u.s marine corps uses about 80 million euros worth of gasoline daily in afganistan.

money that can be used for healthcare in stead of having a party out in the desert just so that every generation on americans can say they ve been in war.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 06:31 AM
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Originally posted by zerbot565
speaking about how to use tax money and budgets , i just read that u.s marine corps uses about 80 million euros worth of gasoline daily in afganistan.

money that can be used for healthcare in stead of having a party out in the desert just so that every generation on americans can say they ve been in war.



Yeah that's why we're there.




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