I am 23, an American Citizen with government run health care.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


you ask, why this and why now.

Here's MHO...

We have been "orchestrated" into a situation, since the crash of the markets last year, through the bailout/tarp, through the half a million a week losing their jobs, through the non-stimulating stimulus, to think that everything is URGENT. It MUST BE DONE RIGHT NOW.

Well, we saw with the bailout/tarp that wasn't true, we saw with the non-stimulating stimulus, that wasn't true, we fought to stop cap & trade because we knew we were being manipulated.

The banks and the Federal Reserve are hoarding funds right now, the credit markets could start flowing at any time, if someone chose to give the go ahead, and people would start going back to work, but...

We are being manipulated, through the ever increasing unemployment to accept this bill, regardless of what is really in it, regardless of whether or not our congress critters get to read it (like the overly porked stimulus).

We've been had and ignored as a populace for so many things so quickly, that people are saying NO MORE.

We know the country is bankrupt, but the national debt is increasing at break-neck speed, in 6 months the increase is more than the entire last 4 yrs under Bush (not that Bush was a good pres).

We KNOW that there is a need for health care reform, but we also know that the reform HAS to encompass Tort reform, prescriptions, dental, major medical, Pharma, Insurance, malpractice and more.

But we are being corralled into accepting a sub-standard bill that is supposed to be the change promised.

Legislation has been floating and being worked on since Clinton was President & this is the best they can offer us?

We are not falling for it.

You want us to support health care reform, then force your democrat and republican congress critters to give us something that really IS REFORM, not just a vague outline of more bureaucracy that keeps feeding the big INS companies and Big Pharma and the Ambulance chasing lawyers, that gives us a real option for dental, vision, major medical and still allows health care professionals to make the money they went to school and learned very specialized skills to have the right to earn.

Make proof of citizenship a pre-requisite for coverage and make failure to follow the laws in the real change enforceable by an "or else" clause.

You cannot fool us again, we know that health care reform legislation has been floating around capitol hill for over 8 years.

This IS NOT THE BEST THEY CAN DO.

Originally posted by TheAftermath

Originally posted by Whine Flu
Damn, we have one hell of a compassionate thread here, don't we?

Compassion has no place in public policy.

Compassion is an individual feeling, and an individuals choice.

Compassion has no place in politics when it comes to public funds.

Yeah, and that lack of compassion in politics is what makes everyday people like me and you get treated like crap by politicians.

reply to post by Whine Flu


Not to mention it has a totalitarian ring to it. A incompassionate government is no place I wish to live. Tends to dehumanize those it's supposed to serve.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

reply to post by redhatty


Best post in the thread, and probably on the entire site that I have read for a long long time.

Sums up my feelings 110% and I am sure many others as well.

reply to post by redhatty


Well, it took 29 pages but we I can now say that we finally agree on something.

In fact puck and I had this very discussion a few pages back.

So yes, everything you say is valid in the context of the the entire hc reform situation.

However ...

If you look back at my question, I wasn't wasn't asking that ... though I do appreciate you sharing a holistic view on the issue.

What I was asking, and more specifically who I was asking, was to those who simply stand on the "not with MY tax dollar" position, is what makes this hc bill any different than any other time the gov. has stuck its hand in their pocket.

From what I have gleamed from your posts including the one above, is that you aren't part of this "sub-group." Hence, despite who may or may not agree with you, no one can accuse you of not having thought it through.

The answer btw is like I said obvious.

It is a disingenuous argument for those who don't want to reveal their political motivation.

Originally posted by Whine Flu

Originally posted by TheAftermath

Originally posted by Whine Flu
Damn, we have one hell of a compassionate thread here, don't we?

Compassion has no place in public policy.

Compassion is an individual feeling, and an individuals choice.

Compassion has no place in politics when it comes to public funds.

Yeah, and that lack of compassion in politics is what makes everyday people like me and you get treated like crap by politicians.

Never accept morals from a politician..

If you think this bill is about compassion, you've been had... this bill is about money and power. Nothing more. Nothing less.

reply to post by Rockpuck


Rather broad generalization don't you think? While I would agree with you about a vast chunk of them I am sure there are at least a few that have the people's best interests in heart.

Originally posted by schrodingers dog

With all due respect education affects at least as many folks as a hc bill would. And my question was based on those who's sole argument is that they don't want THEIR hard earned tax dollars paying for for someone else's care.

.

If you don't have a kid or are a senior citizen, education doesn't mean much. I know that sounds bad, but it's true. That's why school mileages fail so often. Those groups don't see the benefit. I know what you are saying, but that's how it really plays out. Seniors vote no on the vast majority of school funding proposals. Trust me, I've tried to get Seniors to vote for them locally. "I already paid my taxes and my kids are grown up!", was my #1 response from them.

I don't have to show you the polls of how many Americans support hc overhaul. And when the suits get back to DC and finally come up with a final bill I'm sure the American public will voice their opinion on it as well.

But that still doesn't answer my original question.

No matter, it was mostly rhetorical, it really can only be one thing.

Sure polls are for healthcare reform, they are not for a Democratic only healthcare reform. Both parties need to get together and pass a bill that both can live with. Otherwise, when the next time the positions are switched, healthcare will change yet again.

It is in our best interest as a Country to have a bipartisan Health care bill passed. What is so hard about that? I would expect the same scenario if the Parties in power were reversed.

Sure it's politics, but it's both parties fault. I just can't wait till we try to fix Social Security if this is any indication.

reply to post by schrodingers dog

What I was asking, and more specifically who I was asking, was to those who simply stand on the "not with MY tax dollar" position, is what makes this hc bill any different than any other time the gov. has stuck its hand in their pocket.

"My Tax Dollars" when encompassing the entire federal budget, my total contribution to health care might be $10 bucks. The rest goes to feed the beasties many other parts.

It's the simply the fact that it's the government.. the government doesn't need to but in like this, it's needless.. it needs to do it's job and protect its frikin citizens from harmful practices.. but it's not, it's trying to fund the harmful practices.. What the Government funds and operates degenerates into something no body can be proud of.. who wants to support that?

Compassion or feeling the need to help people has absolutely nothing to do with the equation .. it's all about money and power. How many states will it take just to fund California? Most likely, the entire Mid West.

Let the States handle their own affairs, keep the Feds out of it as the Tenth Amendment commands of them.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

Rather broad generalization don't you think? While I would agree with you about a vast chunk of them I am sure there are at least a few that have the people's best interests in heart.

I agree. However their intentions are lost in 1,200 pages of political garbage.

That's the sad part.

I tell ya ...

If the pre-requisite for coming up with a great hc reform bill was being dateless, tipsy, and posting on a CT forum on a Saturday night, we surely are the guys for the job.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Aw... that makes me depressed...

**please note I will NOT be accepting government funded depression medication due Sdogs blunt remarks.**

I have a new bottle of Bacardi and case of Coke to cure this disease.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Hey now. At least I'm playing poker too!

I still like my idea of recalling the House and Senate, locking them in the Capitol with no A/C and tell them they can't leave till they get it right and both sides walk out together singing it's praises.

Originally posted by Rockpuck

I have a new bottle of Bacardi and case of Coke to cure this disease.

Which BOTH may be taxed to fund this healthcare mess. See you are doing your part to support it!

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Many of us feel that we have been taxed enough already to support more than enough parasites, from AIG to GS to BOA to GM & Chrysler, to foreign banks, to new Jets for congress, to a war for oil, the list goes on & on...

I really have no problem with REAL HEALTH CARE REFORM, and in *my perfect world* that reform would also have provisions that reduce the abuse to the system by the people being served (as well as the system providing the care).

Like the drug abuse this thread opened with, like time restrictions for coverage on childbirth for low income patients, not saying they can't have children, but it's not fair for low income people to create more drain on the system by having a kid every 10 months to a year.

If you are low income, have a mandatory 3 yr wait before another childbirth will be covered by your insurance, regardless of the provider.

At least that gives you time to get day care & better employment, even if job training or education is subsidized by other programs provided by the individual states.

Of course, birth control would be provided through the insurance.

But with all the money already spent that we see no effect from, pushing us to accept the "reform" being offered is like throwing good money after bad.

The "tea parties" are based on the slogan, Taxes Enough Already. Thats how many of us feel, we are already taxes too much, now the .gov wants to tax us even more for something we are not seeing reason to believe will really make health care better.

I *think* this is the real sentiment being expressed behind the "not with my tax dollars" message.

reply to post by redhatty

that reform would also have provisions that reduce the abuse to the system by the people being served

And DONT forget the MEXICANS or any other illegal.

Whether Mexican, British, Australian or Kenyan I don't care.. if you are not a citizen = no coverage at all. Zilch. Nada. Go home.

**illegal immigration, the topic that dropped off the face of the earth as the economic crisis worsened, which economically speaking is probably the single most important topic to discuss!**

Originally posted by schrodingers dog

Originally posted by Double Eights

It may cost YOU nothing, but as sure as hell is costing someone.

Why do I have to pay for you? What gives you the right to take my god damn money?

Ok, here's a question ... (not directed at you specifically btw)

Not for just the last eight years, but pretty much since Reagan became president, we've been spending money like there's no tomorrow. Huge amounts on wars but also on social programs, you know, all the stuff in the budgets. Just in the last calendar year between Bush/Obama bailouts, stim. packages, etc, even more so.

And folks have complained about it to a degree, especially the money spent on warmongering, still ...

I've never seen anything like this ...

Of all the times you could have picked to stand your ground, including on YOUR tax money spent to kill others, educate others, etc, why on health care?

What has triggered this sudden awakening and aggressive defense of your hard earned money?

It must be something, and the only thing I can think of is that it is politically based. Another example of party before country dogma.

Because it sure isn't like anything new is happening.

What makes you people think healthcare is the first time people have bitched about wealth distribution?

I bitch about it WHENEVER the topic arises (healthcare, bailouts, clash for clunkers, et al). I'm tired of people assuming that whenever someone complains about healthcare, they are complaining about having to spend money on helping other people. It's not about helping people or hurting people, it's about the fact that you, by supporting the government in its endeavors, support the idea that it is fine to reach your dirty little hands into my pocket to take my MY money to pay for YOUR problems. It's also ridiculous to assume that this is the first time people have complained about wealth distribution.

Paying for a war is also different from healthcare, as the war is a joint program which benefits me directly (keeping me safe/free). Now, the war in Iraq and Afghanistan don't fit that description, thus I hate paying for those wars (just like healthcare), but the fact is a just war meets that description. Now, government funded healthcare doesn't help me in the absolute slightest. I don't want the governments healthcare, but I am STILL going to have to #ing pay for it? Why is it okay for you to take my money to spend in on yourself, when I get NOTHING out of it?


That is the difference between war and roads and government funded healthcare. I can use the roads, the wars keep me safe (AGAIN...I disagree with the Iraq/Afghanistan war (and pretty much every war since the Revolutionary War)...but I support paying for wars if it's to keep me free), however, paying for YOUR healthcare doesn't help ME at all. It takes my money without giving me any benefit...thus it is called "wealth distribution."

It's why Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, et al are #ing horse#. I don't get anything from any of those, yet I still have to pay for them. It's rubbish, and for those of you who don't understand this, you have your answer as to why this country is swirling around the toilet bowl.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by Double Eights]

reply to post by Double Eights


It's really too late at night for me to have to explain again the fundamental concepts of "society," "scarcity," and the resulting "social contract."

You premise is simply flawed.

Think of it this way ...

Once upon a time there were four people in a room and there were four apples.
The next day they came back and Rockpuck was standing there, as he does.
5 people 4 apples = scarcity

They started fighting about the apples which made them fearful.
So they decided to agree on a system to distribute the apples.

Thus scarcity > Social contract which = distribution of wealth by definition.

Now, take that example and apply it to human history.

All "societies," be they political, religious, or anything else based are by definition distributors of wealth. This is why this who "socialism" crap is ignorant to the core btw, but that's another conversation.

Anyhoot, that's all I can muster right now. Hopefully you will see the train of thought, the resulting social human evolution, and why your premise is not apt.

Like it or not, you are born into this social contract to which you are bound to.

If you really want to know a secret, it's not really YOUR money, just your relative mind conceived prison.

Edit to argh: That came off a little more patronizing than I intended. Sorriez.

[edit on 15 Aug 2009 by schrodingers dog]

Edited to reflect that the topic had (apparently) been discussed already. Still doesn't make it any less valid. Apologies for not reading 28 pages of thread.

Chrono

[edit on 16-8-2009 by Chronogoblin]

reply to post by Chronogoblin


With the exception of sales tax, what taxes do you think he pays that would go towards paying for his healthcare?

He already stated he is unable to afford insurance on his own, so one must assume he is in a lower income bracket. Therefore he would receive a full refund of all withholdings, and most likely the EIC, so in essence he isnt paying a dime, yet cashing a check for more than was withheld.

Witholding does not equal paying taxes if you receive a full refund.