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I am 23, an American Citizen with government run health care.

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posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 12:40 PM
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reply to post by redhatty
 


Your tax dollars pays for weapons that kill people you don't know, don't know you, and never did anything to you, but I guess that's ok then? Funny that the tax dollar waste arguement always comes up when it comes to helping people be it healthcare, poverty, or if they're homeless.
Yes there are people who milk the system, but you don't know the OPs situation, so what a way to judge someone you don't know. Get off your imaginary high horse, though I'd suggest a ladder, wouldn't want the tax payers to pay for your injury from a fall.




posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by Yandros

Originally posted by piddles

Originally posted by Yandros
Oh btw, just think, if the drugs weren't illegal then your addiction probably wouldn't even be that big of a deal. Just like quiting smoking.


I can tell you have never done drugs in your life.


Yah, because I'm not an idiot.

But logically speaking, if you could go into a chemist and buy your hits for $3 a pop (which is all they really cost) without any license or identification -- full free market style. Then your addiction would be a really bad habit.

High levels of market competition to make the drugs would improve quality and therefore decrease the risk of overdose. You don't hear about Panadol overdoses very often, that is because the pills all have the same consistency of active ingredient. It doesn't change wildly from packet to packet like street drugs do.

If people really want to help addicts the first thing they should support is legalization of drugs. The second thing they should support is charity. Go donate.


listen, "3 dollars a hit" is ignorant logic. there's no crack house with a line and a sign out front, "step right up, folks, get yer damn fix!"

addiction isn't just drugs. some people are born with addictive personalities and really can't help it. they have disorders that make obsession a constant.


while yes, it's true, it's their own fault for trying these substances (def not pain medication, though, the companies make them addictive for profit; see micheal jackson), I feel it's kind of cold to say "oh well, you did this to yourself" and not want something better for them.

I agree with legalization, purification, and taxation.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 12:46 PM
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Originally posted by ldyserenity
you are so far up your own ass if you think that's a real tax payer.

I'd also like to add that anybody who knows anything about payroll, will tell you, YOU never get back the tax that's taken for medicaid/medicare and welfare/foodstamps, it's a seperated tax, look on your pay stubs. You never claim that tax on your return. It's the same as ss tax.


Are you speaking of FICA withholding? That does not fund medicaid, foodstamps or welfare.

FICA does fund Social Security and Medicare, which you receive the benefits of when you reach retirement age or become disabled.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 12:46 PM
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Originally posted by Yandros

Originally posted by questioningall
reply to post by iamjesusphish
 


We are the ONLY Industrialized Nation that does NOT provide the most basic need for their citizens - and that is HEALTH CARE!!


Canada doesn't. If you go in there for an emergency you'll wait like 10 hours before someone sees you. If you need emergency surgery the waiting lists is months long. All the hospitals are full.

Australia and Britian are in the same boat.

So yeah, we pay more to the gov't under socialism, and we get almost no treatment... and it further inflates the cost of private healthcare which means poor people ... well they just die. Charities can't keep up with the inflated costs.

I guess the lefties don't care though, because they keep right on pushing it.


Blather, nothing short.

NHS vs. US Healthcare

The salient points are: US spends over and nearly twice as much as the UK and Canada, respectively, but has approximately the same number of doctors, nurse and midwives. The life-expectancy of the US is 3 years below Canada's and 2 below the UK's.

Argue your point, but don't just pluck things out of the air. Ten hours waiting ot be seen for an emergency, indeed.

US: 3hrs 42 min. average
UK: 3hrs 32 min. average



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
I am not going to get into the whole good, bad, right, wrong aspect of this, I am simply going to vent my concerns. I work in the Medical field, and I have dealt with Medicare and Medicaid a lot. Neither of them impresses me. Medicaid in particular dumps almost the entire amount of the cost back on the provider, and expects them to render services free or near free. I have seen Medicaid pay as little as $10 dollars on a service that cost the company hundreds of dollars to perform. Medical companies would have to either sacrifice the level of care to third world standards, or completely shut down if Medicaid suddenly is extended to everyone in this country.

My second concern is that my company will dispose of my good insurance once that there is “free” coverage to replace that insurance. Meaning that even though I am entitle to good insurance, I will now only have insurance that covers basic minimal medical needs.

Oh, by the way, to all the folks out there who saw that movie “sicko” and think that Socialized medicine is the way to go. I talked with an American who lived in France, about this subject, and he was scared to death that we would go to a similar system of socialized medicine. He told me that he got a toothache, and was told that it would take up to 6 months to be seen by a dentist over there. If this come to fruition over here, expect to see even worse wait times to get the crappy minimal service that you will end up receiving under this system.


Maybe France is not the best example, but i can tell you a little something about Canadian healthcare system. In january 2008 i woke up with an incredible pain in the abdomen. I had trouble to stand up, was starting to vomit etc.. I was rushed to the hospital and 2 hours later i was in surgery (they removed my gall blader). 3 day later was back home and 1 week later i was completely healthy. A+ for service, didn't cost a dime. Thank you Quebec



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 12:50 PM
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the amount of "tax" a person pays during a year does not cover the cost of the tarmat beneath its feet , the school its child goes to ,the police the fire department etc etc etc

it is done together

its called society

but i do agree that being hooked on drugs and having other people pay for the rehab is a piss in the wind.

if you say you where in such pain the pain killers didnt work then one can but ponder if the doctors ever did anything to find the cause for the pain or to even ease it, seams they where just in it for the buck and the promise of future work.

but rehab isnt cheep , it cost here some 20-50k a rehaab, money that could have gone to schoolbooks or night ligths at the local airfield or a new buss for the disabled etc etc.

point is your sepposed to get of the drugs not trade it for something stronger or a substitute, 2 years clean when being on methadon or something in that direction is not being clean, its just lying to one self.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 01:10 PM
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Everyone is believing the sensationalized interpretation of implication (not necessarily fact) behind the health care idea instead of realizing that the government already subsidizes the private health insurance industry with billions of dollars. Most of the old people who are afraid of being put to death by the bogus "death panel" concept don't realize decisions on who get the donor kidney and who doesn't goes on all the time. Ezekiel Emanuel's writings on who gets donor organs was taken grossly out of context and is known for his ethics on the subject including having written books about it.

I personally had been on a State controlled health insurance program here in California called M.S.I. which made it possible for me to reverse the onset of type 2 diabetes. They NEVER made me take a pill a didn't want to, or have a shot I didn't want to (INCLUDING THE FLU SHOT), and for the most part is exactly like having private insurance. So everyone needs to get over their paranoia, more people will die if we keep this dellusion going that somehow private companies are more in our favor then the government....isn't the problem with the government that the large corporations (like the insurance, drug, oil, military development etc) have taken over the government? So now people think that give them the benefit of the doubt out right is going to make things better? yeah right...

Stop playing Red vs Blue vs Independent and start thinking damn it.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 01:51 PM
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reply to post by iamjesusphish
 


You have unknowingly made a major point in all of this. We already have care. You were on it, a recipient of it. Yet, many are out there on the stump claiming we don't.

I think most of us want health care for everyone, but we don't need to tear apart the current system to do it.

This is about government incrementally taking over our lives. Everything the government runs fails. Medicare is less than a decade from failing due to abuse and incompetence.

Yes to health care for all, no to the government administrating it. As always the truth is in the middle.

To our Canadian friends. I'm not buying it. Two reasons -

A few years ago while opening and office in Grand Forks, North Dakota, not far from the Border I badly injured an ankle. It was mid-day on a Friday and coincidentally the start of a Canadian Holiday weekend. I called every clinic in the area to see an MD and the earliest appointment I could get was 3 days later at a sports medicine clinic. When I got there I noticed the lot was filled with cars displaying Canadian Plates.

After finding out I'd suffered permanent damage as it should have been placed in a cast and being told there was little they could do now I asked why I could not get into a doctor anywhere for three days. The MD told me that every-time there was a holiday weekend for the Canadians they would take up every appointment available in the area. As I left I saw graphically this was a fact. I DO NOT believe all these Canadians flooded the US Doctors because we have worse health care.

The second example was a person I got into a conversation with in White Horse in the Yukon. I had asked about this exact topic. The person told me a horror story about the reality of Canadian health care. He had hurt himself at work and ended up with a hernia. They would not let him work of course and it took him 18 months to get in for the surgery before he could return to work. He lost almost everything. Free health care? He lost 18 months at a high paying job. For a fraction of that cost in the US he could have gotten the surgery right away and been back to work within 6 weeks or so. Therein lies the lie. That is why Canadians flood across the border for care.

I've discussed this with several Canadians since and nobody has disputed either event. This is the reality of managed, government run care.

The challenge is to control health care costs, not change our system to one run by and incompetent government program.

Do you notice they won't even discuss tort reform. Not surprising as nearly every office holder is an attorney and many of them made their wealth from the same ridiculous punitive judgments that are in a big part responsible for the problem. When an attorney won't even discuss tort reform it should alert everyone they could give a crap less about you. This is a power and money grab. They are slowly taking over every aspect of our lives.

It sounds like Medicare worked for you and you did not suffer. So wheres the beef? Nobody wants you or anyone else to suffer. We just want some common sense reform with medical professionals and administrators making decisions instead of an ex ambulance chaser in government making decisions. We want tort reform which would instantly lower health care costs. Is it a surprise these attorneys are against this?

We also know that our own chances of surviving if we contract a disease are higher here than in countries with managed care. Should people give up part of their lives for a program we already know is inferior to what we have now?

Your specific case is also not the whole story. We have millions of Mexican Citizens here who want us to pay for their health care. Many got here by running drugs. We have millions of people who refuse to work and want everything for free. I'm not talking about you, you work and try. I want you to have the care you need but I don't want a meth dealer picking my pocket when their teeth fall out. There has to be some common sense here.

As always, both sides are exaggerating and lying. As always the truth is in the middle somewhere. They have you hating all those opposed to managed care because you bought into lies. They have others hating you based on misconceptions and lies.

I've seen two tapes of Obama flat out stating he wants single payer and also saying he wants to implement it incrementally behind our backs. What kind of leader is that. He is one of the most transparently two faced politicians in years. People have to knowingly ignore facts to not see that.

Obama does not want a meaningful compromise. He wants to dictate our future course unopposed. He does not care about our opinions. The bills, two of which I've read, are purposefully written as to be illegible. I have no trouble with contracts and yet I can't figure this crap out. They wrote this this way on purpose. When it passes, nobody will know how it will be implemented. Don't let them lie to you and say they do. It is a simply a cover written so vaguely that then they can do whatever they wish.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by redhatty
reply to post by iamjesusphish
 


So, YOUR BAD CHOICES have been subsidized by my taxes.

You CHOSE to do drugs, and this caused health problems, but MY TAXES are paying for your rehab and your medical treatment.

Of course you want to keep your free health care going, Me and the rest of the american tax-payers are paying your bills!!!!!

America really has become a nation of leeches, your post is just another example of that.


Put perfectly. Great job!

We have become an entitlement nation. What incentives do most have when they can leech off the public teet.... Entitlement programs have become a generational entitlement, and its a very sad thing.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:01 PM
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Originally posted by Woland

Originally posted by Yandros

Originally posted by questioningall
reply to post by iamjesusphish
 


We are the ONLY Industrialized Nation that does NOT provide the most basic need for their citizens - and that is HEALTH CARE!!


Canada doesn't. If you go in there for an emergency you'll wait like 10 hours before someone sees you. If you need emergency surgery the waiting lists is months long. All the hospitals are full.

Australia and Britian are in the same boat.

...

I guess the lefties don't care though, because they keep right on pushing it.


NHS vs. US Healthcare

The salient points are: US spends over and nearly twice as much as the UK and Canada, respectively, but has approximately the same number of doctors, nurse and midwives. The life-expectancy of the US is 3 years below Canada's and 2 below the UK's.


Well so what? Life expectancy is not a valid measure of medical accessibility.



Argue your point, but don't just pluck things out of the air. Ten hours waiting ot be seen for an emergency, indeed.

US: 3hrs 42 min. average
UK: 3hrs 32 min. average


You think these are good statistics? Even if they were true that is horrible! How can anyone support such a disgusting system that would make someone who is having an emergency wait 3 hours. (And yes in reality it can be easily as long as 10 hours depending on where you are. -- I happen to live in Australia so I think I'd know how long it took last time I went to the emergency room.)

Now, for all the socialists and proto-socialists out there, let me just point out that America already has a socialist healthcare system, that is why it's so damn expensive. Costs are not kept down by competition, simply because there is none.

If you gave food production to the government you'd all starve. You all deserve to starve for your ignorance. So, please, have your governments take over food production.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by Blaine91555
 


Exactly. Why do you think that when there are life threatening issues, any wealthy Canadians come to the US for treatment.....

Good job.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:08 PM
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Originally posted by piddles
listen, "3 dollars a hit" is ignorant logic. there's no crack house with a line and a sign out front, "step right up, folks, get yer damn fix!"

addiction isn't just drugs. some people are born with addictive personalities and really can't help it. they have disorders that make obsession a constant.


while yes, it's true, it's their own fault for trying these substances (def not pain medication, though, the companies make them addictive for profit; see micheal jackson), I feel it's kind of cold to say "oh well, you did this to yourself" and not want something better for them.

I agree with legalization, purification, and taxation.


Oh please, spare me the pathos.

Addiction isn't usually the addicts fault. What you don't understand is that it is a racket. Mafia ships the drugs in, keeps the drugs illegal, that corners the market. The market is cornered, prices skyrocket, the police eliminate any new competition, quality stagnates and the captive market must buy from a monopoly producer at monopoly prices and monopoly quality.

What you don't understand is that he had an overdose for exactly the same reason people are dying in waiting lines. Because these industries are legally enforced government monopolies. Overdoses 99% of the time are a result of inconsistent potency of product! Something that would not occur if there were competition in the market. Commercial drugs by contrast almost never lead to unintentional overdose, because they are manufactured legally and there is competition in the market.

Same with healthcare. If customers started to die in your restaurant, then how many customers are you going to have tomorrow? None. Exactly zero. But if the government forces everyone to get their food from your restaurant and nowhere else, then they'll be back tomorrow. And more will die again tomorrow. No choice = no freedom = poverty = death = starvation.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by iamjesusphish
Where on earth have you people taken this thread? the Iraq war... come on now... this thread is about health care for americans and my own testimony as to how it saved my life. Yes I am a recovering drug addict. Yes it was started on pain meds, yes i have an addictive personality, yes i am 23 and yes I believe i know more about life then some of you in this thread that may be double my age. Come on now, every American deserves health insurance... please get rid of your not my tax dollar mentalities and realize your tax dollars bailed out the banks and the auto industry. So its ok for corporations to receive your taxes but not your fellow americans... I am disgusted by some of you...


I am a firm believer in the idea that stupid # happens to stupid people. Ok, you had a condition/accident that required pain medication to coupe with alot of pain. You became addicted to the pain meds having to use them for an extended period of time. Both of these happen alot and are with in the range of not becoming a burdon on society. I know from personal experience from friends, relatives and myself that presciption pain meds are some of the hardest addictions to rid yourself of once they take hold. Like with vicatin and all the simular, once you stop taking it after prolonged usuage the with drawls themselves will cause alot of physical pain and discomfort which inturn leads to further usuage. YOU had the choice at that time to either continue abusing the meds, almost ODing and dieing or seeking professional help. That is the point you became a burdon on the rest of the public. I fall under middle class and I have worked hard for it. I to have an addictive personality, but I could see the line. Compared to alot of unfortunate people now adays, I feel pretty lucky to be maintaining a good job and making sure my family has benefits to cover them. It has not been given to me. ALOT of sacrifice, persaverance and hardwork. I left the regular Army in 2007 because I was missing my children grow up. The good Railroad Job I got afterwards I was recently laid off from and I was willing to do what ever it takes to keep things going. I came back to Iraq as a contractor and will more then likey be around for a yr, yr and a half until I will get set up enough to either reenlist active or get called back to train service. Giving me close to 5yrs in this #hole. My point is that you made yourself the burdon by abusing and putting yourself in the spot you are at now having to rely on gov insurance. Felons and people just to stupid and ignorant to pick themselves up out of whatever S hole they came from get no sympathy from me. Addicts....alot of really close friends went that way it is an ugly nasty thing. Even if it starts out as a legit medical need, you are still the one in controll on whether you allow it to rule your life or not. When it gets out of hand, the only one to blame in the end is yourself.

I agree 100% that free or assisted gov health care is a very good thing for alot of people. I have no problem with tax dollars going to truley unfortunate individuals/families.

People who put themselves in there own bad plot of life thru crimes or addictions ARE nothing but a burdon for the rest of the country.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by Tank2/8]

[edit on 15-8-2009 by Tank2/8]



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by DwaynetheSpecious
reply to post by redhatty
 


I come from Denmark - known for one of the best put together health care systems and overall systems in the world - we have a dedication in Denmark for not loosing people and let all be equal. All should be given help and this is the basics of the system. You need people to be functioning in a society before the society can run with success. This is why YOU should care for OTHER people and not be a egoistic being. You will soon realize that many things will stabilize because much of the people are equal and no one is left behind - only those who really want to be left behind.

Think a little about other people than about yourself. Why do you think you have so many problems with equality in your country? Can't you really see what problems this creates?

The people you mention, drug addicts etc., are the source to some of the destabilization of your country... helping these people will only do good for the most.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by DwaynetheSpecious]


Thanks for the moral advice from Denmark.

Tell us.. to what country can we outsource, for free, the military defense of civil countries from aggression so that we can build your mighty EUtopia?



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:18 PM
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reply to post by iamjesusphish
 


im with redhatty on this one. My HC sucks and cost allot of money but i have the choice to go to what DR. i want and if my HC company wont cover me for something i may need i can say go (insert bad word) yourself and go to a new HC company that will cover me. No lines or weeks of pain just to "see" the Dr. and when im old no (insert bad word) gov. guy telling me i should just die and save them money cuz im old. There are about 100 other things wrong with this HC plan that i just cant get into right now.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by chasnj
I am 54yrs old and have been paying into the system for over 35 yrs. My business has been going downhill and lost my medical 5 years ago. I take blood pressure meds and now have some other health problems. So when i get a prescription filled i pay 200-300 dollars, i go to dr and pay 100 dollars. I pay more friggen taxes and have no money left over for myself.
Now i need help and and it looks like im not going to get it.
I think more people need to listen to us that can not afford health car.
I can not afford 800-900 a month. I DON'T MAKE THAT MUCH!
Not all of us are freeloaders, i work 60hrs a week.

Just blowing off steam


How many hours of work would you indenture me to since you think I owe you pills?

As far as "paying into a system".. golly gee.. just imagine if for all those years you were paying into your own account.

Govt creates massive bankrupting ponzi schemes that will end up damaging millions of people and your solution is more of it?

You better start taking more pills.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:28 PM
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Nationalized health care will not solve the overall problem. As an American tax paying citizen, I prefer an option where we fix the current system. If someone is physically or mentally unable to work, I can see where a non-mandated national health care system would work. Since I have to pay for my own family's health insurance, I do not need the burden of paying for addicts, alcoholics, or other substance abusers. Whatever they have done to mess up their own lives is not my problem. NO ONE should pay for another person's problems.

What we really need are low cost medial options, which provide insurers the same medical coverage as everyone else. We can do this without turning the whole health care system into a nationalized system. In order to lower the cost of health insurance and treatments, we need to find solutions that prohibit this type of service from being 'extremely' profitable. Its an ethics issue. When there is something wrong with the driver, you do not throw everyone onto the bus. That is also unethical. Only lobbyists will profit from placing everyone into a single payer system. Even though there will be a committee in charge, some of them will no doubt be health care loyalists.

(1) We need to fix our current systems.
(2) We need to lower the cost of treatments, insurance, and drugs by holding the health care community ethically responsible.
(3) We need to give people more low cost options.
(4) We must not make the system mandatory.

If someone was in an accident and their insurance ran out, I can see the need to help them out until they can work. Once they secure a full time job, they will need to make their own choices. Do they take the employer provided options, or do they opt out of taking health insurance? Whatever they chose to do, I am not involved in the consequences of their choices. Its not my problem. If we are able to provide people with affordable health insurance, I am not going to pay for their dumb choices.

Unless a taxpayer uses the government system, they should not have to pay taxes for the system.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by Pathos]



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:35 PM
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I read through most of this thread and can see the need for some sort of government run health care system for those who choose it! But please do not ram it down my throat.
My family coverage, through my employer, use to cost me $284 a month for a bump up plan provided (90/10) After a couple of years the (90/10) buy up went away back to the normal (80/10) and went up to appx. 300 bucks a month. As of July 1st. My coverage is now 70/30 and costs me 600 bucks a month. Am I happy about that? No, but I do not want the government to come in and save me. I choose to pay the increase for the coverage of my family and just work a little harder to cover the bump in the premium.

I feel for those who do not have adequate coverage, but everyone in America can get "Free" medical services in a life threatening situation. You will not be turned away if your life is in danger.

As I said above "everyone in America" that includes illegals in this country. This is where the core of the problem lies in my opinion. When I was paying a reasonable amount to cover my family, and everyone else, I was okay with it, but now as the economy sucks, the cost of living is up, and the talk of more increases coming......there is going to be a breaking point.

Lets take care of our legal citizens who need a little help, and close our boarders. I know illegals are humans too and I do feel for them as well, We just can't cover the huge costs of the influx of real "leeches" of our system.

Most of the illegals come to this country with the expectation of being taken care of and that has to stop. I say, why not set up facilities to take care of illegals that are funded by those governments. If those governments do not comply, well we send them back where those governments have no choice in the matter of taking care of them.

I want people to get into this country the right way, not the back door but we all know that this will never happen, so I feel my solution would be a great start. The illegals are taken care of, and we are not footing the bill. I'm sure there is some down sides to this thinking, but as a start to stop the bleeding, so to speak, we can get a little control over our own problems.

Now I have a little out of the box suggestions for those who may not have medical coverage, and have useful skills....

Talk to you doctors office and offer your skills, services, products, whatever to the doctor and you might be able to work out a trade of services. You would be shocked at how many doctors would be open to the good old barter system.

example: I do refrigeration, heating & air, and own a snow plow. I already have a cash contract for snow removal, and do HVAC on an as needed basis, but it was the doctor that suggested trading services. Nothing illegal, just some basic things like no co-pay, he will eat my portion of charges of some procedures like, a mole removed or whatever. The insurance company is still being charged the same, his charges are the same, but he will absorb his profits in exchange of the above mentioned services.

I just thought I would throw some solutions out there instead of mud and insults. (not that I agree or dis-agree with them) But fighting will not solve anything.
Now, more than ever, we as individual states and communities need to stand on our own feet and make changes before the FED has to step in to take control. With what is going on these days I feel a change coming, and not the Obama kind of change, but a change in the way small business operates.
Just think of what we can accomplish if the backbone of this country grows a brain and separates the head. Lets shut them out because we all know what the engine of this country contributes. Lets stop breaking our backs for the "elite" who only wants our hard earned money and services.

I don't know about you, but I'm tired of being enslaved. It will be tough, but we do not need them anymore.

Kinda off topic, but I think needed said.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by redhatty
reply to post by iamjesusphish
 


So, YOUR BAD CHOICES have been subsidized by my taxes.

You CHOSE to do drugs, and this caused health problems, but MY TAXES are paying for your rehab and your medical treatment.

Of course you want to keep your free health care going, Me and the rest of the american tax-payers are paying your bills!!!!!

America really has become a nation of leeches, your post is just another example of that.


Wow, so many stars for this statement. It makes me very sad to think so many people on these forums lack enough compassion to save human life.

I understand but it makes me extremely sad and almost sick.

Your MONEY is more important than human life?

[edit on 15-8-2009 by SassyCat]



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by SassyCat



Wow, so many stars for this statement. It makes me very sad to think so many people on these forums lack enough compassion to save human life.

I understand but it makes me extremely sad and almost sick.


Being charitable with other people's money and then claiming oneself to be oh-so-moral makes you different than the Mafia bragging about how it takes care of people how?



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