The problem with Health Care: "Government involvement"

Originally posted by VinceP1974

This is classic example of using American values against us. What's he doing is appealing to old fashioned American values of helping one another and then expecting that such a thing can be transferred to an unaccountable Federal Govt and that the same values are therefore being upheld.

But he's wrong.

Once you off-load your community obligations to the Govt , you no longer have Community obligations.. since you gave them to the Govt.

As these Leftists give the Govt more and more control over things that used to be handled person to person, the level of direct involvement in actually CARING for other people decreases.

So all this hoopla he's appealing to..... having the Govt run it actually destroys those values.

Dont let your morals and values be used against you by those who seek to increase the power of Govt and to further destroy the Constitution

No one's paying for their neighbors health insurance, Vince. Appealing to the sense of community we're SUPPOSED TO HAVE doesn't solve the problem. It's just more fluffy words that don't amount to anything. It's solution-less rhetoric.

It's just another way of deflecting recognition that we have a problem with healthcare in this country. Once you offload community obligations!?!?! Those obligations do not exist en masse and as a standard in this country.

Point is simple: There are things the government should not do, and then there are things only the government is big enough to do. Healthcare is one of them.

Worry less about a government that seeks to help its owners with healthcare and more by one that wastes your money, our blood, and our treasure on bogus wars.

Originally posted by Gateway

Originally posted by mental modulator


Well you drive on the same road system as I do

That's because I too also pay taxes, I should drive on these roads as well. But should I also not only PAY for my insurance BUT YOUR HEALTH CARE TOO?

Your computer is powered on a grid that I paid for

Yes I too have payed for it. But again, why should I PAY TWICE.

Your family is safe because I paid for the military that protects them

Yes, and isn't government doing such a great job at it? Stopping those evil IRAQIS from hating my freedom.

I can only imagine how great and efficient they'll run the medical system. Just look at HOW happy all those Vets are at the VETERAN'S HOSPITALS.

And forcing people is bad unless it is a draft-

Forcing anything on anyone is bad don't you think? If so, then you must agree that FORCING this legislation on A PUBLIC that does not want it is also BAD.

The Constitution prohibits the Govt seizure of one's property for the purpose of putting it to the public's use, without compensation.

So it's Unconstitutional for the Govt to force me to give up my property to them to pay for the medical care of other people.

Originally posted by tommy_boy

Originally posted by VinceP1974

This is classic example of using American values against us. What's he doing is appealing to old fashioned American values of helping one another and then expecting that such a thing can be transferred to an unaccountable Federal Govt and that the same values are therefore being upheld.

But he's wrong.

Once you off-load your community obligations to the Govt , you no longer have Community obligations.. since you gave them to the Govt.

As these Leftists give the Govt more and more control over things that used to be handled person to person, the level of direct involvement in actually CARING for other people decreases.

So all this hoopla he's appealing to..... having the Govt run it actually destroys those values.

Dont let your morals and values be used against you by those who seek to increase the power of Govt and to further destroy the Constitution

No one's paying for their neighbors health insurance, Vince. Appealing to the sense of community we're SUPPOSED TO HAVE doesn't solve the problem. It's just more fluffy words that don't amount to anything. It's solution-less rhetoric.

It's just another way of deflecting recognition that we have a problem with healthcare in this country. Once you offload community obligations!?!?! Those obligations do not exist en masse and as a standard in this country.

Point is simple: There are things the government should not do, and then there are things only the government is big enough to do. Healthcare is one of them.

Worry less about a government that seeks to help its owners with healthcare and more by one that wastes your money, our blood, and our treasure on bogus wars.

The problems are all the result of Govt policies... tax incentives.. unintended consequences.

I am ignoring nothing.

What I am ignoring is the laughable suggestion that the way to fix it is to have the people who contributed to the problem take even more control of things.

Originally posted by Taxi-Driver

Originally posted by mental modulator

No, it's about a 3 year 1.7 million dollar cancer bill that is on my family. It is about the death of my Grandmother who was denied an MRI and passed as a result of f-ing plaque. It is the notion that the "free market" approach has been tried for 40 years and purely profit motivated. All rigged to feed and grow off an unfortunate fact of life.

We all have issues, man. But conversely, I am thanking god that I had invested in my families coverage ( and gave up a lot of "fun" stuff for me)

When I needed my coverage -it came through with flying colors. Multiple MRI's, Multiple Cat Scans, X-rays body braces for my daughter, orthodontics, Orthopaedics, Neurosurgeons for my son.. ect.

I was able to pay for all of it. Due to my insurance coverage. Some of those services were NOT something I could wait for. NOT something that could be mired in bureaucratic red tape, or very long waiting periods.

I will fight just the same - not on the side of the Corporations...

With the lobbyist system we have now in Washington..How on God's green earth do you think Corporations are not behind this or at least on board with this push?

www.joinpatientsfirst.com...

Well for one which industry do you think funds this website?

HUH?

Who are thee clients? Funny enough the OIL industry and Big insurance-

and they are anti reform- they are spending big bucks to organize thee protests, the write, distribute and guide the framing of this debate.

Once again why would the industry spend big bucks to protest this???

BTW my father who was slammed with the cancer and the 1.7 million dollar, post life bill had two policies ala Harvard and NASA - top of the line... You will eventually understand, unfortunately you will.

Originally posted by mental modulator


www.joinpatientsfirst.com...

Well for one which industry do you think funds this website?

HUH?

Who are thee clients? Funny enough the OIL industry and Big insurance-

and they are anti reform- they are spending big bucks to organize thee protests, the write, distribute and guide the framing of this debate.

Once again why would the industry spend big bucks to protest this???

BTW my father who was slammed with the cancer and the 1.7 million dollar, post life bill had two policies ala Harvard and NASA - top of the line... You will eventually understand, unfortunately you will.

Common sense says the larger and more intrusive you make the Government, the more you incentivize corporate and organizational forces from every inch of society to try to influence govt to it's benefit.

Another reason why it should be limited.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by VinceP1974]

Originally posted by VinceP1974

What I am ignoring is the laughable suggestion that the way to fix it is to have the people who contributed to the problem take even more control of things.

Hell I would say that to you... word for word...

Who funded who? What was the first is the dance

did the company land the position because the politician funded the initial career?

Or

did the politician land the position because the company funded the initial career?

Who owes who the initial debt?

As you see in a simple dither question your assertion is backwards as is your stance.

Originally posted by Gateway
Mine is my family and my income. My income does not = YOU OR YOUR FAMILY. You have your own income to pay for those having a difficult time.

Can't argue with that, Gateway. You're an isolationist. That's fine. Your right to feel that way. You're on your own. If there was an island you can go to so that you don't have to bear with all of this evil sense of country and community, I'd offer it to you.

This is where PRIVATE citizens come-in and HELP THOSE THAT NEED IT. FORCING PEOPLE to DO AS YOU PLEASE IS UN-AMERICAN!!!

I REPEAT UN-AMERICAN!! BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE DO NOT WANT THIS!!!

Keep quoting them polls!!! Waiting for you to actually tell us which polls your talking about (Prolly Rasmussen and Fox).

I assume nothing! I assume that you pay your own way, through college, in the grocery store, at restaurant, at the gym, at the movies....and AT PAYING YOUR OWN DAMN INSURANCE!!!

Man, your in the wrong country, my friend. You DO KNOW you already live in a pretty socialist country right?

Weary? How else are you to pay for this EINSTEIN IF NOT BY TAXING OR PRINTING PRESS?

Well... Let's see. Considering that the current proposals estimate 2/3's of it to be paid for by cost cutting measures and efficiency reforms. That's neither taxes nor printing money. SO in other words you can redirect approved wasteful spending in order to pay for this. 2/3's is a good start wouldn't you say? You must not manage budgets in your day job, when your not shouting down congressmen at town halls.

Way to make an argument...bring up an unrelated side story. Next why not bring up that maybe a certain percent of the population believes the earth is flat.

They'd probably be Republican But it's still a valid point. You can find a poll that says anything. Most polls actually say that Americans want reform.

That's exactly WHY insurance works. Most people are not sick, and those that pay into it pay for those that are sick...you fool.

LOL! You just admitted that you willingly pay into a SOCIALIST healthcare system! You just admitted that a system where the able pay for the unable WORKS! LOLOLOL!!

I wasn't even trying to get you to do that!!! That's a bonus win!

Now that you, in writing, agree that a socialist healthcare system actually works, can you now, without the anger and useless rhetoric, tell us exactly why your against healthcare reform, especially since you just indirectly admitted you were for it?

Rand Paul had a good idea of making insurance companies offer extended contracts that are longer than one year, so that they can't drop you once you get sick...they are locked in. I don't know if that addresses cost, there are other things that can address that, but I found the idea new and interesting. I hadn't heard anyone suggest it before.

I'm going to repeat soemthing I wrote elsewhere:

The problem with medical insurance, generally is this.


Governemnt ---> $$$$ (Tax incentives) ----> Your Boss ---> $$$$ ---> Your Insurance Company -----> $$$$ ---> Your doctor





YOU

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Common sense says the larger and more intrusive you make the Government, the more you incentivize corporate and organizational forces from every inch of society to try to influence govt to it's benefit.

Another reason why it should be limited.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by VinceP1974]

Fair enough, Vince. But the converse forces us to acknowledge that corporations are just as, if not more, dangerous to the public cause than the government. You can look at the financial industry to see this. There are few dangers greater to the American people than a corporation's balance sheet.

I have been reading and hearing so much about the proposed health care bill, and to me it’s like using an elephant gun to kill a sparrow.
The vast majority of insured Americans are covered under group plans offered by their employers.
The laws regulating group plans is quite a bit different from individual plans and that is where I believe the solution might be.
I was unfortunate enough to be laid off and started looking for individual plans from myself and my wife.
After going through that experience, I would rather be probed by aliens for months on end than go through that ordeal again. When signing up for a group plan it is as simple as name, b-day, SSN and your dependant information. When signing up for individual plans, they will probe every single cough, sneeze, and burp…EVERYTHING. They will pull records from many years ago and expect you to remember every single detail. They will find any little thing they can to jack up your rate, even if such medical issues essentially cost them nothing. Eventually, if you start making claims they will find every reason to try and deny and even drop you.
The laws regulating group plans to not allow them to charge one person in the group more than anybody else in the plan. Pre-Existing conditions do not exist in group plans. You cannot be dropped from a group plan for medical reasons.
Individual plans are not afforded these regulations and the insurance providers can pretty do anything they want, including the horror stories you hear about being denied and dropped as soon as you get sick.
Why not change the regulations governing group plans to cover ALL plans. Essentially one insurance plans rates would be based on all the people on that particular plan as a whole. Basically all insurance plans become group plans based on the pool they are covering.
The VAST majority of the health insurance customers are on group plans already and the insurance companies are still making profits. Just a small change in the law could go a long way towards solving a large portion of the issues with the current system.
I realize there are other issues to be addressed, such as cost containment and pricing issues.
For example, I need to have a thyroid test done twice a year. It would cost me $143.00 to pay cash for each test. When insurance pays for it, it costs them $12.00! I understand offering an insurance company a discount for pointing patients towards that clinic, but a 92% discount???

Just my 2 cents..


[edit on 15-8-2009 by Dreamwatcher]

Originally posted by Dreamwatcher
I have been reading and hearing so much about the proposed health care bill, and to me it’s like using an elephant gun to kill a sparrow.
The vast majority of insured Americans are covered under group plans offered by their employers.
The laws regulating group plans is quite a bit different from individual plans and that is where I believe the solution might be.
I was unfortunate enough to be laid off and started looking for individual plans from myself and my wife.
After going through that experience, I would rather be probed by aliens for months on end than go through that ordeal again. When signing up for a group plan it is as simple as name, b-day, SSN and your dependant information. When signing up for individual plans, they will probe every single cough, sneeze, and burp…EVERYTHING. They will pull records from many years ago and expect you to remember every single detail. They will find any little thing they can to jack up your rate, even if such medical issues essentially cost them nothing. Eventually, if you start making claims they will find every reason to try and deny and even drop you.
The laws regulating group plans to not allow them to charge one person in the group more than anybody else in the plan. Pre-Existing conditions do not exist in group plans. You cannot be dropped from a group plan for medical reasons.
Individual plans are not afforded these regulations and the insurance providers can pretty do anything they want, including the horror stories you hear about being denied and dropped as soon as you get sick.
Why not change the regulations governing group plans to cover ALL plans. Essentially one insurance plans rates would be based on all the people on that particular plan as a whole. Basically all insurance plans become group plans based on the pool they are covering.
The VAST majority of the health insurance customers are on group plans already and the insurance companies are still making profits. Just a small change in the law could go a long way towards solving a large portion of the issues with the current system.
I realize there are other issues to be addressed, such as cost containment and pricing issues.
For example, I need to have a thyroid test done twice a year. It would cost me $143.00 to pay cash for each test. When insurance pays for it, it costs them $12.00! I understand offering an insurance company a discount for pointing patients towards that clinic, but a 92% discount???

Just my 2 cents..


[edit on 15-8-2009 by Dreamwatcher]

Get rid of "group coverage" all together and remove the marketing restrictions

People dont seem to be so feeble getting their own car insurance.

Plus do people somehow fall into the illusion that thier car insurance provides them with the money for most of thier fuel-ups? And wiper-blades? And washer-fluid?

Do people think their car insurance is going to cover oil changes? No. it's in case you do something horrifiic (or is done to you)

For whatever reason health insurance is like the magic thing that pays for everything except the little 10 dollar co-pay.

Originally posted by VinceP1974

Originally posted by mental modulator


www.joinpatientsfirst.com...

Well for one which industry do you think funds this website?

HUH?

Who are thee clients? Funny enough the OIL industry and Big insurance-

and they are anti reform- they are spending big bucks to organize thee protests, the write, distribute and guide the framing of this debate.

Once again why would the industry spend big bucks to protest this???

BTW my father who was slammed with the cancer and the 1.7 million dollar, post life bill had two policies ala Harvard and NASA - top of the line... You will eventually understand, unfortunately you will.

Common sense says the larger and more intrusive you make the Government, the more you incentivize corporate and organizational forces from every inch of society to try to influence govt to it's benefit.

Another reason why it should be limited.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by VinceP1974]

In all other industries I would agree, but then again only a fool or a robot does not make exceptions.

The incentive is to limit government is for the corporations so lets be honest, true government work takes $$$$ from the market place (as does any work)
less government means more to consume for the corporation, it simple.
You can have you conservative views, but don't try to hide the implications.
Less money for the government mean more money for the corporate and visa versa/

But this is a matter of life and death... The industry is sending out their agents to protect profit motive. Embrace it as it is capitalist in every measure...

But don't claim to cover all the bases at once, I do not.

reply to post by Dreamwatcher


GREAT post, Dreamcatcher!

The problem in my estimation is that unless there is REAL competition, prices will never fall. And since the insurers are all in bed with one another, that leaves only the federal government to force competition.

My point is then, in response to your post, that ANY reform measure that does not break the monopoly is no reform at all. All of these people on the thread that are so worried about the size of government are, in this case, trying to cure the wrong sickness (no pun intended).

The insurance companies are loving this, because the more they can get conservatives to extol and scream about the size of government, debt, etc, the less anyone's actually talking about bursting their cash-cow.

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Get rid of "group coverage" all together and remove the marketing restrictions

People dont seem to be so feeble getting their own car insurance.

Plus do people somehow fall into the illusion that thier car insurance provides them with the money for most of thier fuel-ups? And wiper-blades? And washer-fluid?

Do people think their car insurance is going to cover oil changes? No. it's in case you do something horrifiic (or is done to you)

For whatever reason health insurance is like the magic thing that pays for everything except the little 10 dollar co-pay.

Dude. Are you serious? We're not talking about the purchase of a Corvette. We're talking about the health, well-being, life, and death of human beings! There's no way it's the same. We're talking about life!

I thought conservatives were all about pro-life causes?

Originally posted by tommy_boy

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Common sense says the larger and more intrusive you make the Government, the more you incentivize corporate and organizational forces from every inch of society to try to influence govt to it's benefit.

Another reason why it should be limited.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by VinceP1974]

Fair enough, Vince. But the converse forces us to acknowledge that corporations are just as, if not more, dangerous to the public cause than the government. You can look at the financial industry to see this. There are few dangers greater to the American people than a corporation's balance sheet.

Amen - if you conservatives would just call a horse a horse -

But the horse is always a unicorn drunk gambler out killing babies

broken record

Brass tacks

Originally posted by tommy_boy

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Common sense says the larger and more intrusive you make the Government, the more you incentivize corporate and organizational forces from every inch of society to try to influence govt to it's benefit.

Another reason why it should be limited.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by VinceP1974]

Fair enough, Vince. But the converse forces us to acknowledge that corporations are just as, if not more, dangerous to the public cause than the government. You can look at the financial industry to see this. There are few dangers greater to the American people than a corporation's balance sheet.

The financial industry that the Govt is propping up against all known economic sense and sanity? The financial industry the Govt ruined by telling them to trust their GSE lies.

The financial industry that was told they would be sued for being racists if they didn't destroy all sanity in their risk taking?

Yeah lets blame the financial industry for doing everything the Govt told them to do.

(They're to blame for their individual failings to realize the Govt-mandated market changes were economically suicidal, but was the Govt hand in making them drunk with 1% Interest Fed money and 100% implied GSE securities that I think made them blind to the bubble they were in)

Originally posted by tommy_boy

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Get rid of "group coverage" all together and remove the marketing restrictions

People dont seem to be so feeble getting their own car insurance.

Plus do people somehow fall into the illusion that thier car insurance provides them with the money for most of thier fuel-ups? And wiper-blades? And washer-fluid?

Do people think their car insurance is going to cover oil changes? No. it's in case you do something horrifiic (or is done to you)

For whatever reason health insurance is like the magic thing that pays for everything except the little 10 dollar co-pay.

Dude. Are you serious? We're not talking about the purchase of a Corvette. We're talking about the health, well-being, life, and death of human beings! There's no way it's the same. We're talking about life!

I thought conservatives were all about pro-life causes?

Its your responsibility to maintain your life. you have freedom of speech, does that mean I have to pay and buy you a TV station?

Originally posted by tommy_boy

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Get rid of "group coverage" all together and remove the marketing restrictions

People dont seem to be so feeble getting their own car insurance.

Plus do people somehow fall into the illusion that thier car insurance provides them with the money for most of thier fuel-ups? And wiper-blades? And washer-fluid?

Do people think their car insurance is going to cover oil changes? No. it's in case you do something horrifiic (or is done to you)

For whatever reason health insurance is like the magic thing that pays for everything except the little 10 dollar co-pay.

Dude. Are you serious? We're not talking about the purchase of a Corvette. We're talking about the health, well-being, life, and death of human beings! There's no way it's the same. We're talking about life!

I thought conservatives were all about pro-life causes?

Vince - its not a unicorn - its people, people who also say American when they are asked what they are... It is not not an island or a car - when people get there coverage denied based upon industry policed policy it is f ed. That is hardly American either, more like 1600 England where the rule of contract is used as a bully stand.

This is my concern -

Originally posted by VinceP1974
The financial industry that the Govt is propping up against all known economic sense and sanity? The financial industry the Govt ruined by telling them to trust their GSE lies.

No, the financial industry that ruined ITSELF by taking ill-advised and large amounts of risk.

The financial industry that was told they would be sued for being racists if they didn't destroy all sanity in their risk taking?

No, the financial industry that took all of this risk, made HUGE sums of money in the process, and then fell on its face when the bubble burst and they were left holding worthless paper.

Not everything is ALWAYS 100% the government's fault.

Yeah lets blame the financial industry for doing everything the Govt told them to do.

You can't believe that. You know the government doesn't pull the strings of wall street. Lobbyists run Washington, not the other way around.