The Leviticus 18:22 dilemma

"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

To all you bible thumpers who claim gay sex is a crime according to the Law, that you btw don't observe and follow even the slightest bit of, since you are normally "Christian" hipocrites who claim that Jesus died for you, so that you don't have to follow the Law, contrary to gays of course. They MUST follow the Law you dismiss....

Anyway. My point is:
How can a gay couple have sex the way a straight couple has sex?

I'll help you. I can come up with two possible solutions. Either one of them perform a "sex-change" operation which involves removing the genitals and make a fake vagina with scalpels and pianostrings. Or you do like some Japanese perverts, and they are soooo funny, you train for years and years to block out your urinal tract allowing another penis to penetrate your penis (yes they actually do that!).

Case closed. Keep on with your boring no condom reproductive only sex in the missionary position only, and become sexually frustrated and a sex crime offender. It's your choice.

[edit on 14/8/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

To all you bible thumpers who claim gay sex is a crime according to the Law, that you btw don't observe and follow even the slightest bit of, since you are normally "Christian" hipocrites who claim that Jesus died for you, so that you don't have to follow the Law, contrary to gays of course. They MUST follow the Law you dismiss....

While I agree with your notion that using the Law, from the Christian standpoint, is wrong to say homosexuality is wrong, I've never heard anyone only use Leviticus to prove the point.

Keep on with your boring no condom reproductive only sex in the missionary position only, and become sexually frustrated and a sex crime offender.

Um. Haha. Just because someone thinks that homosexuality isn't the way that God planned for us to release our sexual desires doesn't mean that they have "boring, no condom, missionary, reproductive only" sex and are sexually frustrated.


ETA: When you look at the context of Leviticus 18 though, it's quite obvious that it's all about sexual relationships. This particular verse, based on the context, would mean more or less "when a man lies with a man to be intimate with him, as with a woman, it's wrong". It's not saying, "a man shouldn't have sex with a man exactly like he does with a woman".

In fact, in this verse in my German Bible, the word "Geschlectsverkehr" is used. This word means, "sexual intimacy". This verse in the German Bible, roughly translated. Would say: "A man should have no sexual intimacy with another man, that's repulsive."

[edit on 8/14/2009 by octotom]

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


I think you're reading way to much into it...
By "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman", I always took it to mean "Do not sexually lay down with a man".
Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Homosexuality in the bible symbolises spirituality and creation
out of man spirituality was born woman creation (materialistic world)

man with a man means spiritual declining to love what is hiw own,
it's like new age theories that try to ignore desires, and the self
when honesty means seeing them, not ignoring them

thats it.
when it would be literally the whole torah becomes a curse
and you have to follow every law to fulfill your salvation,
and even then it is impossible
god is one, so love everything is the law and is the prophets

the gospel verses pointing to 'homosexuality' are wrong translated,
if people would take the time to actually go back to the
original languages, they would not read homosexuality.
They would read sodomy, which is abuse
they would read the woman that throws away her virtue,
which means her caring nature, that also the man threw away,
to abuse instead of care.

It's easy to ingore this, but if you do you ignore Gods truth,
he is love, is One.

Jonathan.

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

To all you bible thumpers who claim gay sex is a crime according to the Law, that you btw don't observe and follow even the slightest bit of, since you are normally "Christian" hipocrites who claim that Jesus died for you, so that you don't have to follow the Law, contrary to gays of course. They MUST follow the Law you dismiss....

While I agree with your notion that using the Law, from the Christian standpoint, is wrong to say homosexuality is wrong, I've never heard anyone only use Leviticus to prove the point.

Keep on with your boring no condom reproductive only sex in the missionary position only, and become sexually frustrated and a sex crime offender.

Um. Haha.

Just because someone thinks that homosexuality isn't the way that God planned for us to release our sexual desires doesn't mean that they have "boring, no condom, missionary, reproductive only" sex and are sexually frustrated.

So you mean that anal and oral sex etc. is cool as long as you do it with a woman? I'd better tell your pastor then and see if he agrees with your liberal hippie views....

Well, most of the homophobous "Christians" -- refer to the Law, which Saul Paulus refers to when he critisise married men and women breaking the seventh commandment, who leave their sworn companions to have sex with others, and EVEN, to his frustration, have sex with people of their own gender: quote Leviticus 18:22.

Originally posted by TruthParadox
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

I think you're reading way to much into it...
By "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman", I always took it to mean "Do not sexually lay down with a man".
Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Then you don't know how laws work. Look at Islam. The Koran is a beautiful book which says not to kill civilians and not a soldier who lays down his weapon, not even a tree should you kill if there is as little as one green leaf on it. Then look at what they managed to turn it into today, with Sharia etc. You are no better. The words are hewn in stone. What you think has nothing to do with it. The law says what it says. We are here to set free, not to condemn, remember?

reply to post by pasttheclouds


Jesus said we should observe, follow and teach the Law. He also said that it should not be developed or changed in any way. Then he adds that he came not to abolish the Law, but to complete it. And his way of completing it was by adding one commandment: "Love eachother!" Now how does a pietist love a gay couple who loves eachother through changing the Law to fit his own moral standards. Even Saul Paulus says: Whatever you do, do it in the name of love.... And Jesju says Do not condemn, lest you'd be condemned yourself, and how you adjust the scales of lady Justitia, the same calibration will be used for you. Hehe, it will be fun. That black book is a way for us to live peacefully without the idiots who use it to condemn people of diversity. We need diversity in order to laugh and have joys. Like Kris Kristofferson says: "The Law is for protection of the people!" If we were all alike we would have been created with beastlike instincts.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

To all you bible thumpers who claim gay sex is a crime according to the Law, that you btw don't observe and follow even the slightest bit of, since you are normally "Christian" hipocrites who claim that Jesus died for you, so that you don't have to follow the Law, contrary to gays of course. They MUST follow the Law you dismiss....

Anyway. My point is:
How can a gay couple have sex the way a straight couple has sex?

I'll help you. I can come up with two possible solutions. Either one of them perform a "sex-change" operation which involves removing the genitals and make a fake vagina with scalpels and pianostrings. Or you do like some Japanese perverts, and they are soooo funny, you train for years and years to block out your urinal tract allowing another penis to penetrate your penis (yes they actually do that!).

Case closed. Keep on with your boring no condom reproductive only sex in the missionary position only, and become sexually frustrated and a sex crime offender. It's your choice.

[edit on 14/8/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]

i'm trying to follow your line of logic, are you defending that its okay to be a homosexual?


Keeper

Originally posted by Keeper of Kheb



i'm trying to follow your line of logic, are you defending that its okay to be a homosexual?


Keeper

Well, I see no referance to homosexuality in the Bible. Do you? Jesju completes the Law, saying: Love eachother! Is there any difference between gay and straight love?

BTW did you know that the Hebrew word for Husband is Ba'al? As in Ba'al Sebul? Satan? Read Matt 22:30. And has it occured to you that marriage is infact a sworn oath before God's altar? Now open your Bible at Matthew 5:34.

[edit on 14/8/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]

I demand a source for this supposed penis in a penis thing.

2nd line

wow!
i am amazed !

I never even knew about this verse in Leviticus, but clearly it does state in my opinion, don't have sex with a guy, its not a women it has no vagina.

Read Genesis the first book of the bible~!

In Genesis 18, God comes with two angels, appearing as men, to Abraham in the plains of Mamre. After receiving the hospitality of Abraham and Sarah, his wife, God reveals to Abraham that he will investigate Sodom and Gomorrah, because their cry is great, "and because their sin is very grievous." (vs. 20-21) In response, Abraham reverently inquires of God if he would spare the city if 50 righteous people were found in it, then 45, then 30, then 20, or even ten, with God affirming he would not destroy it after each request, for the sake of the righteous yet dwelling therein. The two angels of God proceed to Sodom and are met by Abraham's righteous nephew Lot, who constrains the angels to lodge with him, and they eat with his family. In the Tanach version, Genesis19:4-5, describes what followed, which confirms the verdict as to the sin of Sodom and its end: When they had not yet retired, and the people of the city, the people of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, the entire populace from every end [of the city]. And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, and let us know them." In response, Lot refuses to give his guests to the inhabitants of Sodom, and instead offers them his two unmarried daughters, "who have not known man", to do with as they please. However, they refuse this offer, and threaten to do worse to Lot than they would have done to his guests, and press sore upon him. Lot's angelic guests rescue him, and strike the men with blindness. They then command Lot to gather his family and leave, revealing that they were sent to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. As they make their escape the angels command Lot and his family not to look back under any circumstance. However as Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with fire and brimstone by God, Lot's wife looks back longingly at the city, and becomes a pillar of salt.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
The words are hewn in stone. What you think has nothing to do with it. The law says what it says. We are here to set free, not to condemn, remember?

That's interesting because my initial response was also going to be "What you think has nothing to do with it". .

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

So you mean that anal and oral sex etc. is cool as long as you do it with a woman? I'd better tell your pastor then and see if he agrees with your liberal hippie views....

That's not what I was saying. I was saying that, as a Christian, your sex isn't necessarily boring and "no condom". This probably isn't a discussion suitable for these boards though.

Well, most of the homophobous "Christians" -- refer to the Law, which Saul Paulus refers to when he critisise married men and women breaking the seventh commandment, who leave their sworn companions to have sex with others, and EVEN, to his frustration, have sex with people of their own gender: quote Leviticus 18:22.

Here is the passage that your talking about, Romans 1:26-27 (ESV):

For this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exhanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameles acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

In that passage, Paul alluded to the Law. He didn't quote it though. There is no indication, in the context of the verses before and after, that the people were married, as you've stated. The idea is that, God is known to people, but they chose to not acknowledge him and this lead to them exchanging the eternal God for the worship of God's made by human hands [v21-23]. Then, because of this, God let them go on their own way, abandoning them to their hearts which were filled with iniquity, as they chose to worship and follow a lie instead of the creator [v24-25]. This lead people to following unnatural things. Which God allowed them to follow [v26-27]. In the last paragraph [v28-32], Paul describes how these people, that he was speaking about, were.

In any event, there is no mention of these people breaking the seventh commandment, in this passage at least. There are other places where Paul mentions simply "sexual immorality" [i.e. 1 Thessalonians 4:5]. This phrase would cover anything sexually immoral, including adultery.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

Well, I see no referance to homosexuality in the Bible. Do you? Jesju completes the Law, saying: Love eachother! Is there any difference between gay and straight love?

That's not the love that Jesus was talking about! That love, Greek: eros, isn't found in the Bible. It means passionate, intimate love. The other two forms of love in Greek were though, which are, agape and philia. The former means more along the lines of "like", the later, more or less, "brotherly love". The later is what Jesus wants us to love with. We are to have "brotherly love" for one another.

But, to answer your question, no, if we're talking about affection or passionate love, there is no difference between gay and straight love. But that, again, isn't what Jesus was talking about. Read Romans 1, which I posted earlier, to see God's take on homosexuality. It's definitely not something that he condones, as seeing that he turned people over to it as it was a part of their debased minds.

BTW did you know that the Hebrew word for Husband is Ba'al? As in Ba'al Sebul? Satan? Read Matt 22:30. And has it occured to you that marriage is infact a sworn oath before God's altar? Now open your Bible at Matthew 5:34.

What are you getting at with the Hebrew for husband? I don't understad, as it has nothing to do with the verses that you've cited:

Matthew 22.30:

For in the resurrection, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven.

Matthew 5.34:

But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God...

Any type of fornication or Adultery is considered a sin in the Bible, not matter if it is same sex or not. You are trying to argue this point from a losing stance because you obviously do not know what is written in the Bible to begin with.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Well, I see no referance to homosexuality in the Bible. Do you? Jesju completes the Law, saying: Love eachother! Is there any difference between gay and straight love?

Actually Christ indirectly does make mention that it is a sin, right here:

Mat 19:16-18 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness…

If you are not having sexual relations with your lawfully married spouse (which back in those days was clearly of the opposite sex), then you are committing adultery. Christ had several things to say about adultery, marriage, and divorce, I recommend reading them.

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

So you mean that anal and oral sex etc. is cool as long as you do it with a woman? I'd better tell your pastor then and see if he agrees with your liberal hippie views....

That's not what I was saying. I was saying that, as a Christian, your sex isn't necessarily boring and "no condom". This probably isn't a discussion suitable for these boards though.

Well, most of the homophobous "Christians" -- refer to the Law, which Saul Paulus refers to when he critisise married men and women breaking the seventh commandment, who leave their sworn companions to have sex with others, and EVEN, to his frustration, have sex with people of their own gender: quote Leviticus 18:22.

Here is the passage that your talking about, Romans 1:26-27 (ESV):

For this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exhanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameles acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

In that passage, Paul alluded to the Law. He didn't quote it though. There is no indication, in the context of the verses before and after, that the people were married, as you've stated. The idea is that, God is known to people, but they chose to not acknowledge him and this lead to them exchanging the eternal God for the worship of God's made by human hands [v21-23]. Then, because of this, God let them go on their own way, abandoning them to their hearts which were filled with iniquity, as they chose to worship and follow a lie instead of the creator [v24-25]. This lead people to following unnatural things. Which God allowed them to follow [v26-27]. In the last paragraph [v28-32], Paul describes how these people, that he was speaking about, were.

Natural relations = married. Look up the Greek source.... It's common knowledge which can't be disputed. And Saul Paulus was unmarried was a virgin and wanted all christians to be like him. Though he would condone marriage (probably since it was introduced with Ba'alism. "Husband" in Hebrew is "ba'al".

In any event, there is no mention of these people breaking the seventh commandment, in this passage at least. There are other places where Paul mentions simply "sexual immorality" [i.e. 1 Thessalonians 4:5]. This phrase would cover anything sexually immoral, including adultery.

Like I said above. Having first been in a "natural relationship", they later left in favor of all kinds of strange relationships, refers to how these people Paulus refer to had once been married, then divorced and then in turn, turned into sexual predators in the eyes of Paulus.

Besides, it was common back then in both Greece and Rome to have same-sex lovers alongside their spouces. It was accepted and not counted as adultary, or being faithless.

Originally posted by TruthParadox

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
The words are hewn in stone. What you think has nothing to do with it. The law says what it says. We are here to set free, not to condemn, remember?

That's interesting because my initial response was also going to be "What you think has nothing to do with it".

.

In a way. If we had treated common laws we use today with the same level of creativity and lack of respect today, all of us would have been in jail or executed.... And let's look at precedence. What does the Jewish schools teach about homosexuality? Is it a sin in their eyes? Of course not. Homosexuality is normally fully accepted among jews.

They even know how Adam once was androgynous, with a double set of genitals, just like angels normally have

"and God filled the shameful sexual organ [shaped like a wound], down there, with meat...."

Wow, we're all descendants of a transsexual with issues!!!!

And before you start to argue, find the Hebrew text and translate it word by word into your own tongue first, so we don't have to have the discussion of the Pope's beard all over again.

Originally posted by bako1
wow!
i am amazed !

I never even knew about this verse in Leviticus, but clearly it does state in my opinion, don't have sex with a guy, its not a women it has no vagina.

Well, then you're creative again. The text says what it says, it can't be misunderstood.

Don't have sex with men the same way you have sex with a woman.

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

Well, I see no referance to homosexuality in the Bible. Do you? Jesju completes the Law, saying: Love eachother! Is there any difference between gay and straight love?

That's not the love that Jesus was talking about! That love, Greek: eros, isn't found in the Bible. It means passionate, intimate love.

So when I out of love try over and over to set gays free, my love is EROTIC? Oh dear, you poor poor soul! How will you ever learn.

And as for the husband-marriage-Ba'al thing.... Our marital system has more to do with ancient Ba'al customs than Judaism and what Jesju would refer to as marriage. In Judaism in ancient times, the second you had sex with anyone and the woman got pregnant, you were married and had to divorce her with accepted reasons to leave her. In our culture we can end up being married with people unable to carry forth, who may be full of uncleanness and shaite down there, and counted as a sinner if we leave this person and find someone who can and brings forth the meaning of life.

Yes for the meaning of life is recorded in Genesis 1:28

God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

[edit on 15/8/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]