Challenge Match: titorite vs Scooby Doo: "The Rife Machine: Valid Machine or scam?", page 1

reply to post by titorite

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I would first like to thank TheBorg for enabling this debate. And I would also like to thank titorite for accepting this challenge.

I am going to open and guide your minds through my point of view that the Rife Machine is that of a scam and far from a medical miracle.

As titorite commented on in his opening statement "Many of you are unfamiliar with the Rife machine" it may very well be a good thing you don't.

Cancer victims have died deciding to spend big bucks on a machine in which further research suggests can retail up to $1995.00 contains parts that cost no more than $15 to buy.

It is claimed that the Rife Machine produces RF or "pulsed magnetic field" waves tuned to the membranes of bacteria or virus. I failed to find any scientific evidence to back up this claim.

What is more unsettling is that there is no conclusive proof that rife machines are safe, and companies selling rife machines happily promote they will not take responsibitly for your usage of the machine:

We make no claims whatsoever expressed or implied of any cure or for any disease. Dr. Rife's original research has not yet been confirmed by research generally recognized by medical science. The Detox Box is for experimental use only.....

.....Devices and nutritional or other products are not offered to diagnose or prescribe for medical or psychological conditions nor to claim to prevent, treat, mitigate or cure such conditions, nor to recommend specific products as treatment of disease or to provide diagnosis, care, treatment or rehabilitation of individuals, or apply medical, mental health or human development principles, to provide diagnosing, treating, operating or prescribing for any human disease, pain, injury, deformity or physical condition. Any use of the devices is experimental and based upon your informed consent and private license.

www.2detoxify.com...

I look forward reading and replying to your response.

Scooby Doo

When I said worlds first major breakthrough I should of included of its kind. I mean learning to wash your hands to stop the spread of germs is an impressive medical break through and I gotta say that I believe it predates the invention of Rifes' Machine. So yes first medical breakthrough of its kind would of been the more proper way to state the Dr. Rife Pioneered radio frequency therapy.

So to answer your first question, I should of spoke in context. The First medical break through of its kind. Now as to "medical reports or patient/doctor statement" in regards to that context;

A report from the Smithsonian Institution in 1944 validates Rife's work. Titled "The New Microscope" by Dr. R.E. Seidel (report #3781) it states "Under the Universal Microscope disease organisms such as those of cancer ... and other disease may be observed to succumb when exposed to certain lethal frequencies..." In layman's terms, that means they used the Universal Microscope to watch as they used a frequency generator to kill certain virus cells, such as cancer. This report confirms... Rife's frequency therapy did work!

This virus death ray was applied to cancers in rats and it worked. The next step was humans. The results were astounding. "14 out of 16 terminal patients cured!"
Here is Dr. Royal Rife's report summary: "The first clinical work on cancer was completed under the supervision of Milbank Johnson, M.D., which was setup under a special medical research committee of the University of Southern California. Sixteen cases were treated at the clinic for many types of malignancy. After just 3 months, 14 of these so-called hopeless cases were signed off as clinically cured by a staff of medical doctors and Alvin G. Ford, M. D., pathologist for the group."

(Note: At the time of the study's conclusion, the remaining 2 people were not cancer free; however, it is known that the other patients did eventually recover under Dr. Rife's supervision.

From Here

But this only cites historical references from the Smithsonian Institution.

Here are some references on other Electromagnetic Therapies or Radio Frequency depending on how one wants to address the subject... Meaning its no different from calling boxing pugilism.

Description

Electromagnetic therapy involves the use of energy to diagnose or treat disease. Electromagnetic energy includes electricity, microwaves, radio waves, and infrared rays, as well as electrically generated magnetic fields. Although light is also a type of electromagnetic energy, light therapy is addressed in a separate document (see Light Therapy).

From The American Cancer Society

By that definition Rife would be the pioneering medical researcher to study the phenomena and with recorded success too. I have heard that Tesla had some concept of Rifes Ideas but history shows Tesla Took to a different field of science ,and not with any prominence, medicine.

However, in recent news new folks have discovered interesting variations of radio frequency healing.

But the invention has attracted interest and praise from the small group of doctors who are aware of it. Kanzius also says some biotech firms have expressed interest in financing its development, though he wouldn't name them.

He applied in May for a patent on his invention, which combines a device for focusing radio waves on cancer cells with an as-yet undisclosed technique for sensitizing cancer cells to the effects of radio frequency radiation.

He said his attorneys had cautioned him against revealing details of his invention until the patent is approved. But doctors who have reviewed it under confidentiality agreements are enthusiastic about Kanzius' unlikely creation.

One of them, Dr. Robert J. McDonald, director of nuclear medicine at the Southwest Florida Regional Medical Center in Fort Myers, Fla., said the invention was "absolutely amazing" and "pretty incredible."

From here

Their are other Radio frequency therapies today for varicose veins and enlarged prostate and more various cancers too.And yet with all this proof that radiowave frequency does affect us physically it is not a method of treatment used to cure cancer. Raidowave frequency can be FDA approved to treat wrinkles but not Cancer. Ironic isn't?

Anyways if you require more empirical evidence you can find various photos and Video of Rife in his work as he actively and methodically filmed and photographed and otherwise documented his work. His scientific method is not in question considered his level of scrutiny for the 1920.1930s. But you may still want to see some of those slides and videos. Some you can find online others you may have to travel to the Smithsonian to study in person... like culture slides and what not.

Now onto question two!

You asked me about my comments on the fact that companies retail this machine for up to $2000USD, when the parts to make this machine can be bought for between $15-$100USD?

I think I overpaid for my unit. But I also think its is worth its weight in gold, literally. It is not as good or precise as other units but it is what has given my the majority of my interaction with Rife Technology and the Radio Frequency Healing therapy Rife Technology uses. I have seen the 30 day free trial version that can utilize your computer to generate precise radio frequencies. I have also sat in front a VIBE machine and have some thoughts about it as it cost 10,000$ Which is about the same price of a fully functional close as possible reproduction of the original Rife Devices. Beam Ray and all. The reason the higher end models cost more is reflective of their superior quality. Basically, I think some folks are more proud of their own particular rife unit model than others, and that the more prideful folks charge more for their machines.

I have seen the cheapest Rife CDs for as low as .99 cents. On ebay. Which is still .99 cents more than the free 30 day trial version. Some folks are working with all their might to get this thing better understood and more thoroughly tested and other folks want to make a buck when they help. Its the way of the world. What more can I say?


Now when I asked you about your thoughts you said that you thought that if it worked it would help the economy.

Question 1 How would a Scientific Miracle Machine that could kill all harmful viral and Bacterial infection received by you personally as a medical professional IE: You have this SMM and seen it work in all satisfaction to your observation. How would you deal with it?

Secondary follow up, Question 2
If you saw this Scientific Miracle Machine go into continuing clinical trials for 80 years before being approved would that be an acceptable amount of time to determine if this device works?


At this time, I'd like to attempt to correct something you said in your prior post.

The FDA certainly thinks so, in fact they have prohibited its use in the United States declaring it illegal.

Now this, to my knowledge is not entirely accurate. You can use it to your hearts contents but you can not openly promote the idea that it works as a medical device to cure disease when you use it... It is the making of the claim that it works that is outlawed.


So it would seem to be a conspiracy of silence to me. Considering on the one side you have folks willing to go to jail, who methodically document and video record their findings, turn them over for peer reviews only to be rejected because of lack of medical "Bona Fides" or other trumped up reasons to be ignored. To say it works is criminal so what do we attribute our observations to when we see folks over come diseases like multipe myoloma or Psoriasis. Both interesting disease and both incurable allegedly but I have seen folks recover from both after using my machine. Is the legal thing to do, give god the credit for those folks getting healed?

How scientific no?

Question 3

Assuming this machine works and people that used it would be disease free and that this machine can be mass produced and widely utilized what could we expect from the world wide impact of people no longer dying of disease but only by accident and violent tragedy.... People age badly and die early because of preventable disease but this could even treat their indiscretions of indulgence. How would the world react if this device would let us all die old and long lived of nothing more than the wear and tear of old age?

Question 4 Has the FDA or AMA ever been caught manipulating results of any clinical trials of medicines and therapies to get certain ones to pass or fail and thus control the market of what is and is not acceptable drugs and treatment options for the sick? In other words has any of those bureaucrats ever get caught cheating the people of proper medical advancements?

The floor is yours my friend.

reply to post by titorite

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Thank you to both titorite and TheBorg for allowing me extra time to sort out some personal issues, that have finally after time been resolved.

After recent research I have found that the "original" rife machine may have been acceptable for use Under Close Scrutiny. However, for it to be fully usable and excepted by medical institutes it would have to go through a lot of testing. From my research, the only testing conducted was by Rife himself.

You titorite clearly explained you have indeed attempted your own research and experiments. However, now my argument turns to whether both yours and most of the "Rife Machines" on the market are really even close to the original rife design.

Whilst roaming the web searching for distributors, I came across the following statement at a Medical Research Website:

Please note that the Rife machine used today is not the Rife in its original form and no medical claims can be made for this technology. Modified versions such as the Rife-Bare device are today's modern incarnations of the original Rife machine. However it should be highlighted that the original machine was not given FDA approval which is partly why it has been modified for today's market.

From here

Now if I read that correctly, that verifies my thoery that all machines on the market claiming they are of "Rife Technology" are far from telling the truth. They may follow in Rifes idea, but certainly not the same product.

As I stated in an earlier post, Rife failed to patent his product and many of the original designs and blueprints of his technology was confiscated and later lost. So my question to you is why do most of the machines on the market carry the name "Rife" or falsely state they use "Rife Technology" when they truly don't?

Question 1: I believe you are asking me what I would do if I myself discovered and saw first hand the Rife Machine working successfully?

If I could find enough evidence to prove that it worked, or had successful claims from my patients, then I would work to promote the device for further testing. And if trials were a success I would promote the device.

Question 2:80 years? That is more than acceptable time for testing. What needs more attention however is the fact that the machine clearly does not exist any more. Instead, the market has been flooded with products suggesting Rife Technology and it clearly is not.

Now this, to my knowledge is not entirely accurate. You can use it to your hearts contents but you can not openly promote the idea that it works as a medical device to cure disease when you use it... It is the making of the claim that it works that is outlawed.

And one of the main reasons the FDA has outlawed claims is because of falsely stated products claiming Rife technology.

Question 3: Well, since one of the claims of the "Rife Machine" is cancer recovery, I found the following statistics from 2002.

Estimated new cancer cases in the United States for the year 2002, according to the American Cancer Society (Year 2002 Surveillance Research from the American Cancer Society). It is estimated that about 555,500 Americans will die from cancer, corresponding to 1,500 deaths per day. Cancers of the lung and bronchus, prostate, and colon and rectum in men, and cancers of the lung and bronchus, breast, and colon and rectum in women continue to be the most common causes of cancer deaths. These four cancers account for more than half of the total cancer deaths among men and women. Lung cancer has surpassed breast cancer as the leading cause of cancer death in women since 1987 and is expected to account for about 25 percent of all female cancer deaths in 2002.

From www.cancure.org...

From doing the maths, with people that have died from cancer alone, compared with people whom have died from natural causes, the mortality rate of sufferers would be somewhere around 20%.

How would the world react if this device would let us all die old and long lived of nothing more than the wear and tear of old age?

This is my counter argument that many cancer sufferers are or may become terminal. This percentage is usually up around 40% of cancer sufferers world wide.

Question 4: No one could answer this question. If I wanted, I could counter this question and ask you whether any companies promoting the Rife Machine have paid users and/or doctors to make false claims of the Rifes success or manipulated trial results.

As far as I know, no one within the FDA have been caught manipulating results of trials. Nor have I found evidence of any government officials being held responsible of such act.

My question and only question at this time for you is: As it has been proven most if not all products on the market are not the same as the original Rife design, why are companies still promoting the sell "Rife Machines" or use "Rife Technology"?

Back to you.

To answer your question,

The Current Rife units today are only different from the originals as technology has advanced. It IS the same basic machine. Much like TVs of the 1930s look nothing like the TVs of Today. Today we have Interactive Television, High Def TV, Even Holographic TV despite the lack of market. But it is still the same basic TV. Same thing with the Rife Machine. Later in his life , with help from Bare and Crane and probably more I am neglecting to mention , he switched from using light as the carrier wave to an audio carrier wave because it was cheaper and more folks could afford it.

But it is still a Rife machine, It still cures cancer. All cancers. And most diseases.
It cant cure chromosomal disorders or regenerate lost tissue BUT if it is a virus or a bacteria then the Rife machine can kill it.

Now as for the research, it was done in the 1930s. And it was done in a clinical setting for the time.

In another letter in 1935, he (Dr. Milbank Johnson of Pasadena) says that the results were "not conclusive" - it is thought that some patients had responded well to the treatments from the Rife Ray machine, but that Johnson was not convinced that such a speedy recovery was necessarily the same thing as a "cure" - although apparently Royal Rife considered them "cured." Dr. Johnson also wrote later that he had run the clinic by himself, to prove what the Rife Ray machine could do in vitro - in the body. Mr. Rife was almost certainly not present for most of this clinic, but may have come around occasionally to help or to observe

From Here

Some clinical trials were done. But more were called for. And so it has gone on for more then 80 years. More than enough time to be able to determine if it really does work or not. And yet it remains shunned by modern medical science. The only motive I can see for the black balling of the Rife machine is money. The machine works as advertised. What that means, is that it can cure a disease that most doctors make millions in attempting to cure with chemicals. Pills, Syrups, Radiation and more and yet nothing is so powerful as the Rife machine and it is precisely because it can take money out of the medical establishments hands that it represents a threat that must be squashed in order to protect their income.

If it was just a matter of protecting the public health then they could acknowledge repeated requests for further study. But FDA does not. Despite slides, video, testimonials, and evidence upon evidence the FDA has refused further clinical trials of the Rife technology. The do not even acknowledge the folks that send them the evidence. I speak from my experience from the Lyme Rife yahoo group.

Of all the groups attempting to get this technology accepted in modern medicine they are working the hardest.

QUESTION 1: How is this technology supposed to become "mainstream" if the FDA will not conduct further clinical trials with Rife technology?


QUESTION 2: What field of medicine are you in?

Now you said

If I could find enough evidence to prove that it worked, or had successful claims from my patients, then I would work to promote the device for further testing. And if trials were a success I would promote the device.

OK good deal. Now my next question.

Question 3: Would you consider it ethical, If you knew this worked, to use it on sick folk while it was under testing?

Let me go into detail. You as medical professional have this device that you know works. You would attempt to get it into clinical trails but in the mean time would you think it would be ok to prescribe or suggest the use of this machine IN CONJUNCTION WITH currently approved treatment options?

Question four: As a medical professional is this debate the very first time you have heard about the rife machine?

Ok then... Your turn my good man.

reply to post by titorite

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But it is still a Rife machine, It still cures cancer. All cancers. And most diseases.

Well, that completely contradicts the argument. Cancer? I can not find any justifiable evidence to prove that it does, whether it be the original or newer models of "Rife Machines". Lets be honest with each other, that was quite an over-statement to say it "cures cancer".

The thing is that you yourself said the machine is not banned, companies are just banned from promoting that it works. If this is the case, most people are able to purchase or use a Rife Machine. So why don't we see more people using them? Because they do not trust the product.

Why should cancer sufferers put their health in the hands of a machine that is said to work, but never fully proved to work?

QUESTION 1: FDA may never properly take the time to test "The Rife Machine" or similar products. Clinical trials may need to be privately funded in order to get official results.

QUESTION 2: I am in Pediatric medicine (Kids) with a background in Biomedical Engineering.

QUESTION 3: I feel that I would find it unethical if any professional were to forward their personal views/opinions on their patients, even if it indeed was proven to work. I feel the overall issue would the patients taking offense to a professional promoting an "alternative" device.

and Question four: This debate has indeed been my first time encountering the Rife Machine.

My question to you is, as a user and possible promoter of the Rife Machine, if clinical trials were conducted either private or by the FDA and was proven that it did not work, what would be the effect on you and/or the other users?

The floor is back to you my friend...

reply to post by titorite

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I also just realized that it was time for our closing statements. It has been an interesting and eye opening debate. Seeing this is both my first time researching the Rife Machine, I have seen a window of opportunity that under deeper research may hold some valuable information.

From everything you have told me I can say that you have not been in pediatrics for very long...

Indeed you would be right. I am currently studying pediatric medicine in and hope to graduate within the next 3 years and move onto Immunology. I never thought a couple of years ago that medicine would become a passion and an interest for me, but anything is possible.

So, in conclusion I would like to thank TheBorg for both helping us make this debate possible and answering my "debate forum newbie" questions as this has been my very first and hopefully not last debate at ATS.

I would like to thank my opponent titorite for taking the time to debate this topic with me. I truly appreciate it.

And finally thank you to everyone who has flagged our debate, and taken the time to read and star our posts.