The Investigation of the Commonly Cited Document: "Shock: Inside Obama's Healthcare Bill"

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posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 03:44 PM
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The blog publication titled Shock: Inside the Obama Healthcare Bill written by Robert Wenzel and published at his blog Economic Policy Journal has been making its rounds here on ATS and other sites. It is presented as a critique of the horrors contained in this bill and members of ATS such as WhatTheory in this post claim to have researched the claims made by Mr. Wenzel.

Sadly, upon under taking my own research into the claims made by Mr. Wenzel I have found errors in comprehending the language of the bill and outright lies and misrepresentations of what the bill contains.

This really is not THAT big of a surprise as lies and spin seem to be the main attack against the bill known as HR3200.

What I would like this thread to be is a place where sane minded individuals go through this document, look at the claim made, go to the section or page number presented by Mr. Wenzel and either verify or contest the statement he made in his post.

I am asking for help with this because there are HUNDREDS of claims. None are backed up by anything but section #s or page #s from HR3200. They are easily verified or contested. The following are the first 6 claims made by Mr. Wenzel and contested by me:

“Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!”



STUDY.—The Commissioner, in coordination with the Secretary of Health and Human Services and the Secretary of Labor, shall conduct a study of the large group insured and self-insured employer health care markets. Such study shall examine the following:
(A) The types of employers by key characteristics, including size, that purchase insured products versus those that self-insure.
(B) The similarities and differences between typical insured and self-insured health plans.
(C) The financial solvency and capital reserve levels of employers that self-insure by employer size.
(D) The risk of self-insured employers not being able to pay obligations or otherwise becoming financially insolvent.
(E) The extent to which rating rules are likely to cause adverse selection in the large group market or to encourage small and mid size employers to self-insure


No where is a mention of an audit. That is purely alarmist propaganda.


Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benes u get



SEC. 123. HEALTH BENEFITS ADVISORY COMMITTEE.
(a) ESTABLISHMENT.—
(1) IN GENERAL.—There is established a private-public advisor committee which shall be a panel of medical and other experts to be known as the Health Benefits Advisory Committee to recommend covered benefits and essential, enhanced, and premium plans.

(b) DUTIES.—
(1) RECOMMENDATIONS ON BENEFIT STANDARDS.—The Health Benefits Advisory Committee shall recommend to the Secretary of Health and Human Services (in this subtitle referred to as the ‘‘Secretary’’) benefit standards (as defined in paragraph (4)), and periodic updates to such standards. In developing such recommendations, the Committee shall take into account innovation in health care and consider how such standards could reduce health disparities.

BENEFIT STANDARDS DEFINED.—In this subtitle, the term ‘‘benefit standards’’ means standards respecting—
(A) the essential benefits package described in section 122, including categories of covered treatments, items and services within benefit classes, and cost-sharing; and
(B) the cost-sharing levels for enhanced plans and premium plans (as provided under section 203(c)) consistent with paragraph (5).


This is EXACTLY how private health insurance operates as well, only with private health insurance there is no clause written in that allows ht public to prepetition the government to get coverage types not already part of the insurance plan.

I thought this one was going to be a synch to disprove too, and then I read the sections question and had a nice giggle. Yes, the government IS going to choose what types of care you can receive but in the exact same fashion as a private company, only I am sure a bit better. So no free breasts for anyone out there because that will undoubtedly be deemed an elective surgery.

Try looking at your private health insurance policy, it tells you what is covered and what inset. It is an essential element of running a insurance program without a doubt, no conspiracy here.


Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!



(A) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—The cost-sharing incurred under the essential benefits package with respect to an individual (or family) for a year does not exceed the applicable level specified in subparagraph (B).
(B) APPLICABLE LEVEL.—The applicable level specified in this subparagraph for Y1 is $5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a family. Such levels shall be increased (rounded to the nearest $100) for each subsequent year by the annual percentage increase in the Consumer Price Index (United States city average) applicable to such year.


This is a limitation on how much YOU pay per year, not on how much health care you get. Where oh where did anyone ever get the idea that this was about rationing health care? COST SHARING, meaning how much you pay is what is being limited not how much care you can get. This is one more example of the DEPERATION to create fear in a situation where it is not warranted.


Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose UR HC Benefits 4 you. U have no choice!



SEC. 142. DUTIES AND AUTHORITY OF COMMISSIONER.
(a) DUTIES.—The Commissioner is responsible for carrying out the following functions under this division:
(1) QUALIFIED PLAN STANDARDS.—The establishment of qualified health benefits plan standards under this title, including the enforcement of such standards in coordination with State insurance regalators and the Secretaries of Labor and the Treasury.
(2) HEALTH INSURANCE EXCHANGE.—The establishment and operation of a Health Insurance Exchange under subtitle A of title II.
(3) INDIVIDUAL AFFORDABILITY CREDITS.—
The administration of individual affordability credits under subtitle C of title II, including determination of eligibility for such credits.
(4) ADDITIONAL FUNCTIONS.—Such additional functions as may be specified in this division.


This is the same hype as in the second section cited by this terrible document. While it IS true they will be determining benefits and standards it is not true in the light you are showing it. As a paying member of a private insurance company, actually this is the 3rd I’ve been a member of I can assure you EVERY TIME I get a new policy I get what is called and ‘Explanation of Benefits’ and guess what it is? It is a document that tells me what the insurance company will cover, up to what dollar amount, and so forth, including what they will NOT cover.


PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided 2 ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise


EC. 152. PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION IN HEALTH CARE.
(a) IN GENERAL.—Except as otherwise explicitly permitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations consistent with this Act, all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services.
(b) IMPLEMENTATION.—To implement the requirement set forth in subsection (a), the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall, not later than 18 months after the date of the enactment of this Act, promulgate such regulations as are necessary or appropriate to insure that all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act are provided (whether directly or through contractual, licensing, or other arrangements) without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services.


Nope. Nowhere in this section is there any reference to non-citizens, that is a fabrication as is so far every citation in this horrible document.


Pg 58HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access 2 individs finances & a National ID Healthcard will b issued!



‘‘(D) enable the real-time (or near realtime) determination of an individual’s financial responsibility at the point of service and, to the extent possible, prior to service, including whether the individual is eligible for a specific service with a specific physician at a specific facility, which may include utilization of a machine-readable health plan beneficiary identification card;


Funny, how scary it would be in today’s health care climate if the hospital were able to check what you have to pay for and what your insurance paid for. That is all this is, it is not access to your personal financial records. As it clearly states it is access to your policy provisions telling the hospital what you are personally going to pay for and what your insurance will pay for and that is what the ‘health care id card’ would be used for. It really is no different than the card I HAVE to carry and provide to the hospital today to get my coverage.

Now if other members would be willing to donate some time to looking into this document and providing the language from the element of HR3200 cited by Mr. Wenzel to confirm or deny his claims that would be great. Thanks for your help.

DENY IGNORANCE!




posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 03:52 PM
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Why are you starting this thread? the issue was treaded at some length at ATS

If you do not agree with the interpretation of certain parts of the bill or have any other insights why not post there?



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 03:53 PM
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reply to post by Animal
 


Good, glad you're reading it. I did the same.

Can you please tell me (as no one else could) who the Commisar uh, I mean Commissioner is going to be? What would be his/her budget? What would be his/her staff? Is this an elected position or appointed? If appointed, then by whom? Is there a length of time he/she is to serve? Is this an executive-type position? Will he/she answer to the 1 trillion dollar budget?

What are the absolute powers of this position? Does he/she answer to anyone? Is there any regulation that would determine abuse in this office? Where would this office be located?



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by Animal
The blog publication titled Shock: Inside the Obama Healthcare Bill written by Robert Wenzel and published at his blog Economic Policy Journal has been making its rounds here on ATS and other sites. It is presented as a critique of the horrors contained in this bill and members of ATS such as WhatTheory in this post claim to have researched the claims made by Mr. Wenzel.

Sadly, upon under taking my own research into the claims made by Mr. Wenzel I have found errors in comprehending the language of the bill and outright lies and misrepresentations of what the bill contains.

This really is not THAT big of a surprise as lies and spin seem to be the main attack against the bill known as HR3200.

What I would like this thread to be is a place where sane minded individuals go through this document, look at the claim made, go to the section or page number presented by Mr. Wenzel and either verify or contest the statement he made in his post.

I am asking for help with this because there are HUNDREDS of claims. None are backed up by anything but section #s or page #s from HR3200. They are easily verified or contested. The following are the first 6 claims made by Mr. Wenzel and contested by me:

“Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!”



STUDY.—The Commissioner, in coordination with the Secretary of Health and Human Services and the Secretary of Labor, shall conduct a study of the large group insured and self-insured employer health care markets. Such study shall examine the following:
(A) The types of employers by key characteristics, including size, that purchase insured products versus those that self-insure.
(B) The similarities and differences between typical insured and self-insured health plans.
(C) The financial solvency and capital reserve levels of employers that self-insure by employer size.
(D) The risk of self-insured employers not being able to pay obligations or otherwise becoming financially insolvent.
(E) The extent to which rating rules are likely to cause adverse selection in the large group market or to encourage small and mid size employers to self-insure


No where is a mention of an audit. That is purely alarmist propaganda.

I have underlined the particular phrase in question. I do believe that when you examine a companies financial solvency, you are indeed auditing them. You are opening and scrutinizing that companies financial records which is indeed an audit.



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 05:13 PM
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reply to post by Animal
 


PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided 2 ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise

EC. 152. PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION IN HEALTH CARE.
(a) IN GENERAL.—Except as otherwise explicitly permitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations consistent with this Act, all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services.
(b) IMPLEMENTATION.—To implement the requirement set forth in subsection (a), the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall, not later than 18 months after the date of the enactment of this Act, promulgate such regulations as are necessary or appropriate to insure that all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act are provided (whether directly or through contractual, licensing, or other arrangements) without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services.



Nope. Nowhere in this section is there any reference to non-citizens, that is a fabrication as is so far every citation in this horrible document.



I do believe you missed this little provision:::


20 (d) SPECIAL DUTIES RELATED TO MEDICAID AND
21 CHIP.—
22 (1) COVERAGE FOR CERTAIN NEWBORNS.—
23 (A) IN GENERAL.—In the case of a child 24 born in the United States who at the time of 25 birth is not otherwise covered under acceptable 1 coverage, for the period of time beginning on
2 the date of birth and ending on the date the
3 child otherwise is covered under acceptable cov4
erage (or, if earlier, the end of the month in
5 which the 60-day period, beginning on the date
6 of birth, ends), the child shall be deemed—
7 (i) to be a non-traditional Medicaid el8
igible individual (as defined in subsection
9 (e)(5)) for purposes of this division and
10 Medicaid; and
11 (ii) to have elected to enroll in Med12
icaid through the application of paragraph
13 (3).



So , Yes illegal aliens will get free health care for their unborn babies. This will create more problems.



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by ohioriver

I do believe you missed this little provision:::


20 (d) SPECIAL DUTIES RELATED TO MEDICAID AND
21 CHIP.—
22 (1) COVERAGE FOR CERTAIN NEWBORNS.—
23 (A) IN GENERAL.—

In the case of a child born in the United States who at the time of birth is not otherwise covered under acceptable coverage, for the period of time beginning on the date of birth and ending on the date the child otherwise is covered under acceptable coverage (or, if earlier, the end of the month in which the 60-day period, beginning on the date of birth, ends), the child shall be deemed— (i) to be a non-traditional Medicaid eligible individual (as defined in subsection (e)(5)) for purposes of this division and Medicaid; and (ii) to have elected to enroll in Medicaid through the application of paragraph (3).


Your right I had not made it to this yet, assuming it is part of the document this thread is focusing on.

Note the part you underlined, specifically the part I added BOLD to. Clearly this section is talking about children born in the USA, which to the best of my knowledge makes them citizens according to the 14th amendment.

Therefore, as this section ONLY refers to CHILDREN BORN IN THE USA it is NOT offering coverage to illegal immigrants.





[edit on 14-8-2009 by Animal]



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:35 AM
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reply to post by Animal
 



Unfortunately, this will create a flood of illegals coming to this country to give birth to their children here and create even more anchor babies.

Here is the page where the bill is:

edlabor.house.gov...

You will find it on the bottom of page 100 if you would like to verify it.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by ohioriver]





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