Are we being falsely lead torwards Civil War?

reply to post by ADVISOR
I believe you will find I referred to our form of Government as "Constitutional Representative Democratic Republic." The reason I refer to it as such, is because we have a Constitutional Republic, in which our officials are elected not simply through the democratic process, but rather, through a representative democratic process.

The US is not a Democracy, never has been, and never will be. I have not made that claim. Instead, I submit that we are a Constitutional Republic which chooses to indirectly elect leaders based up certain democratic principles, i.e. "open" (though not direct) elections, and appointments made by officials which have been granted the power to appoint by the Sovereign - which is itself only the Will of the People acting under their own divine laws. In other words:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, ensure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

It is there, "The People... Do Ordain" that I find enlightening. Not God, or the King, or the duly elected President ordains, but "The People....Ordain."

Thus, again I say to you, if the true seat of power lies with ourselves and our Constitution, then the problems we are having stem from those that we have appointed and elected, not from the Constitution itself which only states that the Sovereign is in "Us".

But, alas, we may be arguing semantics and digressing beyond the scope of this thread, no??

Thank you for making my point, I stand corrected. Yes, the United States of America are a Constitutional Republic.

It is not a democratic republic, or republic with democratic tendacies. They are two different creatures. One is rule by majority, which we ain't since the electoral college is nothing close to the majority.

The other, is representatives elect by the people who may allow said reps to stay in office.

democracy

rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections


republic

government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government b (1) : a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law

It is that simple, but this thread is not about that.

It is about them/the gov/fed leading the people into a civil war.
How could they do such a thing, easy, look in this thread for example.

People more intent on argueing the differences of some thing that is irrelevent, than the purpose behind it.

What is the purpose of labels and tags? To seperate them from what is around them. Dividing the labels making them seperate from each other.

What purpose does it serve? Why be labeled, tagged as this or that, when it has done nothing but divide?

It is plain and obvious, if your pulled into the petty squabling and argueing about right wing this vs left wing that, and demo crat vs repub lican then you have fallen into the trap of polarisation.

Divide and conquer.
I still don't get it, havn't they divided the people enough, majority are already conquered. Hanging on every word of our golden tongued leader/s.

I know every one doesn't get it, or see the same thing. Never expected all to, but there is some things I know every one does see.

When enough people realise they see the same, perhaps then the people will actually wake up and finally see the forest for the trees.

reply to post by Artephius Abraxas Helios


I was actually talking to:

Originally posted by JBA2848
It is not a simple representative democracy, but a constitutional republic in which majority rule is tempered by minority rights protected by law"

Yes, at least we can agree to disagree. Yet this dialogue continues in a favorable direction.

It is dicussions as these which imspire me to return. This and simular collabortive efforts is what ATS is about.

reply to post by Artephius Abraxas Helios


I was actually talking to:

Originally posted by JBA2848
It is not a simple representative democracy, but a constitutional republic in which majority rule is tempered by minority rights protected by law"

Yes, at least we can agree to disagree. Yet this dialogue continues in a favorable direction.

It is dicussions as these which inspire me to return. This and simular collabortive efforts is what ATS is about.



[edit on 14-8-2009 by ADVISOR]

Generally speaking as one from the left I agree with you.

I am in favor for health care reform and there are sound arguments for doing it now than later regardless of the deficit...most notably the rapidly approaching economic firestorm that will come when the baby boomers start retiring in mass...if we don't do something now we may not be able to do anything later...maybe for decades to come but if we get a handle up on it with something like national health care we can advert the drain on the economy via medicare/medicaid that their/our retirements will create.

BUT as for driving us towards civil war...there are those on the right who would love just that and are pushing all their might for it....fortunately their might isn't all that mighty.

BUT what worries me is not the blah blah blahs stirring the pot as it were but the behind the scene pushers...and for the most part they are movement conservatives who are little more than shills for corporate forces who would love nothing more than to get the government out of the way so they can milk this cow for all its worth.

reply to post by grover
I'm a conservative, but I've been leaning towards your conclusion that sooner or later we're going to have to do something about the outrageous costs of health care. In particular, the Insurance industry could use some cleaning up.

But my support for that cause is tempered by a realization that someone will have to pay, they always do. In most cases in recent memory the one group that always ends up paying is the middle class. If small business owners are forced to buy insurance for all their employees it will at the very least stifle growth for some, and at the worst, bankrupt many. This is the real debate we should be having on health care I believe, not "death panels" et al.

The problem, and what lead me to my hypothesis posited in this thread, is that the dialogue is being manipulated by the far right and the far left to drown out the legitimate concerns that moderates of either political leaning might have. To what ends is that manipulation aimed? Is it only to completely shut down the debate on Health Care Insurance Reform? Or is there something more to it?

From the looks of the responses we've seen in this thread, I'd say most of us agree that we are all being played like instruments, and the legitimate need for honest debate over proposed reforms is simply the bow by which we are being fiddled. So to speak...

Grover,

Your post makes absolutely no sense.

Government = corporations = government = corporations = government

They are working together i.e. state corporatism. You're of the "left"? So what? The left controls the right and the right controls the left.


[edit on 14-8-2009 by Zosynspiracy]

Seems to me that there is some gray area in this discussion as to who TPTB really are.
The list so far: MSM, US government, the prez, the Constitution, Dr. Evil, Soros and pals, the people.
So who is it?

Then there's the gray are of why and how a Civil War would begin.
The list so far: TPTB $hitstirrers, Dr. Evil, the government, the prez, healthcare.
So what is it?

Help me, I'm confused.

Originally posted by Artephius Abraxas HeliosThe leadership of the Republican party is desperate, and is essentially throwing a "Hail Mary" to try and stir up dissent. But, when we realize that "Death Panels," and "Obama is a Socialist," and "Tea Parties," and "Birthers," were all products of Far Right activist who care not for the means by which their ends are accomplished, shills for the corporate lobby...

The revolution is only possible if we put aside the notion of Left v Right, and take up the mantle of Truth v. Lies.

Truth v. Lies, eh?

Obama IS a socialist, and he is a compulsive liar and is hiding any and everything about himself and his policies.

There WILL be panels set up to council the elderly and terminally ill to accept DEATH over treatment.

And the Tea Parties have a lot of organic grassroots activity. Besides, how else can anyone protest or overcome the status quo without the status quo (like you) claiming it's manufactured?

So, there's some truth for you since that's what you claim to be interested in.

Originally posted by Artephius Abraxas Helios
From the looks of the responses we've seen in this thread, I'd say most of us agree that we are all being played like instruments, and the legitimate need for honest debate over proposed reforms is simply the bow by which we are being fiddled. So to speak...

Well pat yourself on the back! You're so sophisticated and well mannered, that you refuse to do anything at all except type some words on a conspiracy theory message board.

You're the one being played like an instrument by believing something can be accomplished by doing nothing at all.

Originally posted by autowrench
I agree, the powers that be would really love it if the American People just rose up and took guns and started shooting at Federal Officers....this is what they actually think we will do, if pushed hard enough. Beck, Jones, and other radio personalities are pushing this agenda, we do not have to listen to them. I have said it many times, the correct way to American Revolution is through the courts, and the State(s) Legislators. Yes, it is true that we have enough guns to kill half the world, but we do not have to use them. America is the only Nation on Earth that used nuclear bombs to make a point, do they ever use them again? Just the threat of guns is enough, but the people must do things slowly, surely, and legally, and no mistakes. Failure to do this would result in disaster of a heinous proportion.

auto
I get and like your drift.
I would add that an extensive walk back into the history of the Republic and it's desires will help those on the fence. The desires and warnings expressed by it's founders .
donny

Originally posted by Artephius Abraxas Helios
reply to post by ADVISOR

 

i think you take the man's words too literally, and out of context. I remember distinctly when those words were spoken, and it was with regards to "Big Government Spending." It did not have anything to do with Government being the "enemy" of the people.

Government serves a valid function in Society and should not be demonized because you disagree with a policy. The military that protects our borders and freedoms is Gov't, the police and fire departments are Gov't, your local voting office that allows you to voice opinion in democratic elections is Gov't. Lest we forget that government is simply the rules and institutions we as a people empower for our health safety and well being. This Country was founded by people who believed a correctly formed and justly administered Government for and by the people would be the best form of society and best protection against tyranny the world had ever seen. I tend to agree with them, which is why I do not want my Government hi-jacked by special interest and corporate lobbies.

WOOOA
I am soooo glad I read your last sentence!
Wisshooo

Originally posted by JBA2848
Since the United States is a democracy,

NO IT ISN'T!!! The United States is a Republic!!! Rule of Law, not rule of the majority.

You need to watch this video so you are not so confused.

reply to post by Artephius Abraxas Helios


I say yes, we are being lead into a civl war, falsley, through propaganda.

Right and Left : A Control Mechanism of the Skull and Bones Society, the Order of Chaos

Quote by : SpartanKingLeonidas

Many who preach peace, truly have a desire for war, and hide their wolves sharp teeth betwixt their sheep covering of wool.

Originally posted by ADVISOR
No that is the problem, people keep thinking the USA is a democracy, it is not. SHOW ME where it says democracy, because I have read nothing in the Constitution that says democratic any f'n thing.

It says Republic, and multiple times.

People are doing it again, get out from under the blankets man.

ADV
When I was a kid in school, we saluted the flag and said 'To the Republic for which it stands".

Can you illustrate in some way how or why this has changed?
thanks donny

This thread is smokin so fast I will throw this in as a post, it was a reply. Then I will attempt to back up read up and catch up.

I cannot speak for anyone else but what I see here is some sort of semantics.
When I speak of the US government I try to always include "and it's agents".
Hopefully to show that I am not anti government and illuminate the fact that the gov. has been hijacked by people that IMO do not have the interest of the public close to their harts. The definition of this abuse sings through out ATS and the Nation. Bout time

Originally posted by Zosynspiracy
Grover,

Your post makes absolutely no sense.

Government = corporations = government = corporations = government

They are working together i.e. state corporatism. You're of the "left"? So what? The left controls the right and the right controls the left.


[edit on 14-8-2009 by Zosynspiracy]

I always thought of it as good cop, bad cop.
If you are voting for either animal, elephant or jackass, it's still just an animal.

Originally posted by JJay55
Seems to me that there is some gray area in this discussion as to who TPTB really are.
The list so far: MSM, US government, the prez, the Constitution, Dr. Evil, Soros and pals, the people.
So who is it?

Then there's the gray are of why and how a Civil War would begin.
The list so far: TPTB $hitstirrers, Dr. Evil, the government, the prez, healthcare.
So what is it?

Help me, I'm confused.

Thats what 40 years of brainwashing can do to one.
A vacation?

ah, the old connecting dots where they don't exist. the fact of the matter is that we are undergoing a change that occurs roughly every 36 years. The party usually in the majority turns into the minority. That party usually believes that it is losing only because it has failed to live up to its principles (democrats in 1980s, republicans now). What happens then is that the party slowly loses its members until it is reduced to its core voters. On the way, the party raises a rukus.

Right now the Republicans, who have clearly accepted more funding from corporations than the democrats (although the democrats are far from angels) are trying to scare people in order to lessen Obama's popularity and stop the health care industry from losing profits from giving Americans good health care through a public option. Demint has even admitted that he believes that health care is Obama's Waterloo, that it will break him.

So as a result the usual people have been scared. These are typically white conservatives who have been indoctrinated into the idea that the problem is soley government. Anyone who has heard about "Whats the matter with Kansas?" knows. These people are very vocal, engaging in tea parties and shouting down instead of engaging in a dialogue with their elected officials. As a result their numbers seem a lot larger than they actually are. Therefore, no, we are not being led down a revolution or a civil war by mysterious forces. What is merely happening is that a shrinking Republican party is desperatly gasping for air, scaring people and grabbing onto anything that will halt their decrease in popularity, even if it brings that thing down. Those who are saying that Obama is a socialist and that health care will create death panels will be proven wrong and as Republican former president Eisenhower once said "their numbers are small and they are stupid."

reply to post by Riposte
What on earth makes you think all I do is type words on a message board, any more than that is the extent of your contribution, yourself? I may, in fact, be the one being played, but, at least I have attempted to prevent such an occurrence by educating myself on forums such as this.

If my attempt at eloquence has somehow offended you, I sincerely apologize. But I’ve always found it more interesting to write with style, than to simply be rude to other people because the anonymity of the internet affords us that opportunity.

Just so that we are clear, I use what I learn here to try my damnedest to show others in my real world community that there’s more to the world than that which we see.

That said, what did your post here do?

You add nothing conversation, and instead attempt to insult me. I looked up your profile, and I see your contributions are limited, and the responses to such have been generally unfavorable.

While I hesitate to chastise you too strongly, out of sympathy, may I suggest that you find a way to express yourself in a way that doesn’t pick fights with people that are obviously more educated and aware then yourself. Such behavior is unbecoming, even on the internet.

If I have misspoken or misunderstood your post, I apologize in advance. I sincerely hope you will take the time to read the rest of this thread and see that the rest of us can verbally duel, discuss, and disagree, and yet we have managed to be respectful of each other and even occasionally concede points. With time maybe you to can add to the adult conversation.

Good Day!