Challenge Match: Republican08 vs Skyfloating: "Atheism vs. Theism"

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posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 04:59 AM
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The topic for this debate is "Atheism vs. Theism"

Republican08 will be arguing for Atheism.
Skyfloating will argue for Theism.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

There is a 10,000 character limit per post.

Any character count in excess of 10,000 will be deleted prior to the judging process.

Editing is strictly forbidden. For reasons of time, mod edits should not be expected except in critical situations.

Opening and closing statements must not contain any images and must have no more than 3 references.

Excluding both the opening and closing statements, only two images and no more than 5 references can be included for each post. Each individual post may contain up to 10 sentences of external source material, totaled from all external sources.

Links to multiple pages within a single domain count as 1 reference but there is a maximum of 3 individual links per reference, then further links from that domain count as a new reference. Excess quotes and excess links will be removed before judging.

The Socratic Debate Rule is in effect. Each debater may ask up to 5 questions in each post, except for in closing statements- no questions are permitted in closing statements. These questions should be clearly labeled as "Question 1, Question 2, etc.

When asked a question, a debater must give a straight forward answer in his next post. Explanations and qualifications to an answer are acceptable, but must be preceded by a direct answer.

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Each debate must post within 24 hours of the timestamp on the last post. If your opponent is late, you may post immediately without waiting for an announcement of turn forfeiture. If you are late, you may post late, unless your opponent has already posted.

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Judging will be done by a panel of anonymous judges. After each debate is completed it will be locked and the judges will begin making their decision. One of the debate forum moderators will then make a final post announcing the winner.




posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 06:07 AM
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I thank Republican08 for inviting me to this Formal Debate.

In this Debate I will be arguing on behalf of Theism and in opposition to Atheism.

Opening

Unequivocolly theism means to pay respect and appreciation to a Supreme Being as the Creator of All-that-is, to value the sacredness of his Creation (Life), and to follow the virtues of kindness, love, joy, goodwill and relief of suffering to the best of ones ability and resources. Both theist and spiritual doctrine teaches accountability for ones choices, for whether one chooses good or evil. In Christianity this is what is referred to as Gods Judgement. In Hinduism and Buddhism this is referred to as Karma. All religion is based on the concept of higher realities, afterlife and accountability for ones thoughts, words and deeds.

Contrary to the claim of many atheists, belief in a Supreme Being does not require membership in an organized religion, as is evidenced by myself.

Atheism is, in my view, a mere rebellion against religious bigotry and fanaticism. It therefore tends to focus on the very worst of religion, such as Islamic Jihadism or the Catholic Inquisition, in order to denigrate the belief in a Supreme Being. However, devotion to a Supreme Being has nothing to do with vile and barbaric acts, murder, mayhem and brainwashing. These are merely humans abusing the name of God for their own hateful purposes. The atheists tendency to focus on the very worst in religion, ignores the broad majority of religious people who are decent and respectful.

A-theism is inherently an antagonistic positionality rather than a product of "free thought". This is why atheism produces a lot of being "anti-" something or other rather than visionary solutions. A-theism is a by-product of theism, its antithesis. It would not exist without theism. Ive often heard atheists say that "every child is born an atheist". As atheism is a clearly defined position which has spawned hundreds of books, lectures, political-systems and activism this cannot be true. A child is born without any position whatsoever. If anything, the new born child is an agnostic - but even that would be one label too many.

I speak out against atheism because its fruits throughout the last few hundred years have been moral relativism (Where there is no moral accountability it is merely "a matter of perspective" whether cold blooded murder is good or bad) and psychological apathy.

Politically, the fruits of atheism have been extreme forms of communism and anti-spirituality. The best example of this is North Korea which follows an explicitly atheist doctrine called "Juche Ideology", where devotion to a Supreme Being is replaced by devotion to a human leader and a worldview that is bereft of any merit, meaning or moral accountability. The results? Mass-starvation, mass-poverty, blandness, squalor, hopelesness, imprisonment, suppression of media, dehumanization. Nothing else is to be expected when basic spiritual values are taken away and replaced by the atheist view that life is the result of a meaningless chain of coincidences and chemical reactions.

Atheism as an activist movement tends to piggyback on science and infiltrate modern Academia with its agenda. Most of the great names of science however (Galileo, Copernicus, Newton, Einstein, DaVinci, Max Planck, Freud, C.G.Jung, Niels Bohr, David Bohm, Edison, Tesla etc.) were not atheists. Its difficult to have a creative mind without consideration of higher forces of inspiration.

Both Atheists and the fundamentalist religious attempt to polarize "Evolution vs. Creationism" is based on fallacy, any half-intelligent human being can see that they need not be mutually exclusive. Evolution can easily be a tool of Creation.

The atheist makes conclusive statements about the nature of reality although he himself is merely a tiny body-mind in a vast universe who perceives not even 0,00001% of all-that-is. The sheer arrogance of this stance is awesome and ultimately destructive when presented as a "fact" to impressionable young minds in school and the media.

If the atheist were to be content with his disbelief in God and keep it at that, no social unrest would arise. But many atheists feel compelled to tell others and to force their agenda and opinion down societies throats. When one likes the color red one does not have to decry the color blue. The intolerance of militant-atheists has become so extreme that some would prefer outlawing any references to Supreme Beings (such as removing "In God we Trust" from the 1-Dollar-Bill).

The atheists main line of reasoning is, that there is no "proof" for God and therefore God does not exist.

This is no different than the 17th Century folk saying "There is no proof that manned flight is possible, therefore manned flight does not exist"

The truth of the matter is that humans do not know whether God exists or not. To make an absolute statement saying "God does not exist" has no validity at all.

Not knowing whether a Creator exists or not, it then becomes a matter of choice, until a date in which more is known to mankind. And given the choice of a life that originates from a higher, creative source, or a life that is a pointless coincidence, I certainly choose the former.

In this Debate I intend to use logic and reason, rather than biblical verses, to counter atheism. It is my opinion that atheism cannot be countered with religious rhetoric, because it is of another paradigm entirely. Likewise one cannot use the tool of logic and reason to talk someone out of being in love. Those are two different worlds. So atheism is best countered in the same frame-of-reality it purports to be in.

I look forward to a fun Debate from both sides that is beneficial to all readers.



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 06:42 AM
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I would like to thank the TheBorg for creating this thread/debate for me and Skyfloating to

Discuss/Debate Atheism, over Theism.

First

A person born into India would more likely than not, be a member of the Hindu group, as opposing the Muslim,

Christianity or Islam group.

This child will grow up to believe in Reincarnation, that his soul will again possess another body.

He will follow under the false Indoctrination that his/her parents bestowed upon him/her, their own religion.

Vilayanur Ramachandran, has encountered a boy, aged not listed, who developed Temporal Lobe Epilepsy. This boy,

discovered/thought he was god, or a different type of god, a Omnipotent being, he honestly believed that he had

become a deity from a Disease referred to as Temporal Lobe Epilepsy.

Now would a Human from ancient times be able to comprehend this? I tend to think not. The person thinks

differently, and think on a much larger scale from the seizures! Although the things we must consider are that,

this is a mental disease. I tend to wonder whether or not if he had no idea of a god, if he would still consider a

deity, or just a abstract thinker.

The idea of a Deity, Constructer of the Universe are, images painted on a board, and must be regarded as such.

We do not believe that the Mona Lisa, is a divine being for the extreme feelings it bring us, along with the

watchful eyes. We don’t consider her a deity, although we consider it a wonderful work of art.

Gods’ have been constructed for reasons such as, segregating us from supposed ’sins’, allowing us to live forever,

allowing us to admire the idea of here and now, in a eternal state. I could go on.

This is a debate, we should wonder, what Theism does to us, and how it harms us as a whole.

Theists may have lower blood pressure along with other healthy statistics, but at the basis, does this help

humanity as a whole, would you have higher blood pressure to know you knew more then that of a person who proposed

their beliefs and doubts to be answered by a god.



God does know more good then a bed, some beds allow you to sleep better, and others are a bit uncomfortable,

deities, like most allow humans, to be comfortable, by dismissing their wrong doings (sins). Taking those sins and

forgiving them, or disregarding them till reincarnation, or a Karma, where the person lives in hell for it, till

they achieve heaven and have got through your own tribulation.

Deities, are meaningless, even for agnostics they must assume, at the very least, that there is no god, personal or

not, that it is either not there, or very secretive, which poses no more real, then spilling salt at your local

Pizza Hut.


All In all the ‘Religious’ gods, I think this debate will not be about, I believe this debate will be about whether

there is a God, or is their not a God?

I can easily disprove and counter any attack on a personal god, Yahweh, Brahma, Allah, into oblivion, although I

think you strike the nerve of Agnostics, “the god that is not known”. The infamous, personal god, which is easily

defeated.

I pose few questions then.

!) Is god a Eternal being?

2) Is a Deity, simply something one believes in off no proof, delusion almost.

3) Could we of not come about besides the need of a deity, if a deity needed it to be from him/her strictly, why

the deity, why him/her, to create us?

In a plight, not to corrupt the opening post into the debate, except for debate full post. Is that the

Misunderstanding of atheist.

Atheism, is the same as Sam Harris agrees as Non-Astrologers, Non-cosmologists. So on and so forth.

Atheism, is a belief in no deity, no belief in a higher power. There are a lot of people who don’t believe that

Elvis is Alive, and some may say Elvis is alive, we simply do not accept this, now if this came to be a matter of

jobs or where you live, if booted out by your community, you would stand for what you believe in until a community

agrees Elvis is alive, and you will be accepted into it.

This does not make Elvis a living being, especially at this age!

We are skeptics, we don’t believe in a god, and we refuse the idea of a god that created the Universe. A beautiful

one at that. We can’t be so prone to an idea of a Deity that created the earth out of nothing.

That only God can create something out of nothing. Well (4th) Why can’t something come from nothing without a

Deity/God.

As I understand, The rebuttals, start, only after the opening posts, I will kindly rebuttal many arguments of the

Floater lol, after my opening post, and This is my first debate so hopefully a good one.

I Again thank Skyfloating for permitting me to be a debater.



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 07:52 AM
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Originally posted by Republican08
A person born into India would more likely than not, be a member of the Hindu group, as opposing the Muslim, Christianity or Islam group. This child will grow up to believe in Reincarnation, that his soul will again possess another body. He will follow under the false Indoctrination that his/her parents bestowed upon him/her, their own religion.


An interesting point this brings up is that ALL religions, no matter where, are based on the same essential set of values: Higher Source of Creation, Accountability, Choice of Good & Evil. This basic "handbook of life" has been given to every culture in many variations.

Generally I agree that it is better not to indoctrinate children but let them decide for themselves what to study. One can make recommendations, but force-feeding religion is not beneficial. If the child does not take up religion as a matter of free choice, thats beside the whole point of religion anyway.



Vilayanur Ramachandran, has encountered a boy, aged not listed, who developed Temporal Lobe Epilepsy. This boy, discovered/thought he was god, or a different type of god, a Omnipotent being, he honestly believed that he had become a deity from a Disease referred to as Temporal Lobe Epilepsy.


Are you implying that a belief in God or being Divine, means one suffers from Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?

Last time I checked at my doctor he said I was fine.

As the Hindus, in their rich ancient texts already taught thousands of years ago, an experience of Divinity, the Supreme Being or as they call it Enlightenment can come about in 3 ways:

a) Through total surrender and devotion to the Divine
b) Through certain practices such as Meditation
c) Through brain damage

This various states of "cosmic consciousness", "the divine" and enlightenment have been classified and categorized long ago.

The reason brain damage can lead to these higher states of consciousness is because the so-called ego-self which seperates itself from God, is temporarily impaired.




The idea of a Deity, Constructer of the Universe are, images painted on a board, and must be regarded as such.


Who created the whiteboard for us to paint our images on? Why are we creative, why do we create if creation is no inherent quality of the Universe?



We do not believe that the Mona Lisa, is a divine being for the extreme feelings it bring us, along with the watchful eyes. We don’t consider her a deity, although we consider it a wonderful work of art.


And Art was created, before it existed. This implies that before something exists, it must be created.



This is a debate, we should wonder, what Theism does to us, and how it harms us as a whole.


The belief in a creative force as the source of life does no harm. Abusing belief-systems to justify acts of agression - thats whats harmful.



Theists may have lower blood pressure along with other healthy statistics, but at the basis, does this help


Debate Question 1: On what basis do you claim that improved health does not help?



humanity as a whole, would you have higher blood pressure to know you knew more then that of a person who proposed their beliefs and doubts to be answered by a god. God does know more good then a bed, some beds allow you to sleep better, and others are a bit uncomfortable, deities, like most allow humans, to be comfortable, by dismissing their wrong doings (sins).


Basic theological understanding is that we are given the choice between good and bad. Choosing that which is opposed to life is defined as bad, choosing that which is pro-life is considered good in Religion. Hence an improvement of health is considered as good. Taking someones life is considered as bad.

The U.S. Constitution and many other documents of law around the world are based on the ethics of religion.

Atheism does not provide any sort of ethical compass. This is why the longer atheism winds its way into the psyche of a human, the more careless and morally relativistic that person becomes. He will then start to say irrational things such as what you just said: "Improvement of Health does not help".

In essence atheism stems from a childs rebellion against a father-figure, from repressed memories in childhood, from being afraid of authority.
This is evidenced by the rebellious stance taken by many atheists that attempt to desecrate religious texts, pee on the church lawn, burn down religious statues...or vilify Mother Theresa as you have recently done.



Deities, are meaningless, even for agnostics they must assume, at the very least, that there is no god, personal or not, that it is either not there, or very secretive, which poses no more real, then spilling salt at your local Pizza Hut.


Here we have an example of the loss of any sense of reverence or awe toward life and its beauty. The grandness of the Universe is equated with the meaninglessness of a salt-shaker in Pizza Hut.

This is quite common in self-proclaimed atheists.




!) Is god a Eternal being?


According to all religious scripture I have studied, God is infinite and eternal, is both the source of all and contained within all.

This is difficult for the intellect to grasp because it is confined within a linear world where being contained-within and being-source-of are contradictory. Solving the duality of this paradox is the aim of various sages who seek enlightenment. It is in fact an essential question in Zen-Buddhism.



2) Is a Deity, simply something one believes in off no proof, delusion almost.


In building ones personality, taking "leaps of faith" is essential. My parents say that if I jump down into the water, I will not be harmed, I will float back to the top. But I do not know that because I have not experienced it. I can now either stay frozen in fear, or I can trust my parents and take the plunge, take a leap of faith. My personality will be strengthened because of it. That is the value of faith.



3) Could we of not come about besides the need of a deity, if a deity needed it to be from him/her strictly, why the deity, why him/her, to create us?


The basic premise of spirituality is that there is a creative force behind life, as opposed to the atheists contention that there is no such creative force, that the breathtaking perfection of a leaf from a tree or a solar-system that has planets circling in perfect harmony, are "coincidences".



Atheism, is the same as Sam Harris agrees as Non-Astrologers, Non-cosmologists. So on and so forth.


Ive never seen a non-astrologer publishing books and holding lectures on non-astrology. Same goes for cosmology.



Atheism, is a belief in no deity, no belief in a higher power. There are a lot of people who don’t believe that


When it becomes an active and very vocal opposition of religion, it goes down the same dirty road fanatical-religions have gone.




We are skeptics, we don’t believe in a god, and we refuse the idea of a god that created the Universe. A beautiful one at that. We can’t be so prone to an idea of a Deity that created the earth out of nothing.


The skeptics mechanistic reductionism and concept that only that which can be measured is real, precludes the idea of beauty, so how can you tell what is beautiful? It also precludes the idea of love and inspiration.



That only God can create something out of nothing. Well (4th) Why can’t something come from nothing without a Deity/God.


Why is it so important to atheists what others believe? Why do atheists not just let other people believe whatever they want to?

The explanation is simple: One eventually becomes what one rebells against. The law of the Pendulum. They got sick of religious-fanatics telling them what to think, and now they go around - doing the same - telling everyone what to think.



This is my first debate so hopefully a good one.


You are defending the position of the atheist perfectly.

Debate Question 2: What do you think about the idea that "Force causes Counter-Force"?



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 05:40 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 





An interesting point this brings up is that ALL religions, no matter where, are based on the same essential set of values: Higher Source of Creation, Accountability, Choice of Good & Evil. This basic "handbook of life" has been given to every culture in many variations.

Generally I agree that it is better not to indoctrinate children but let them decide for themselves what to study. One can make recommendations, but force-feeding religion is not beneficial. If the child does not take up religion as a matter of free choice, thats beside the whole point of religion anyway.


All religion then by that means, is a good point, albeit also an awful point in most parts. Good and evil, is speculative, one mans good is another mans evil, and Belief, causes one to act differently, to speculate to it according to a text by illiterates. One may be friends with homosexuals, but judge them, and dislike them to show their faith for god.

Jesus camps.

Children are being taught that 'The one and Only way to "Save" your soul is to believe in Jesus" for the Judeos, specifically. This is quite the burden to place on a child, whose brain is still developing, now having to feel that he/she will live forever, and must believe or go to hell, and are expected to hold much! Children the light of the world.




Are you implying that a belief in God or being Divine, means one suffers from Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?


No, but it is a very real possibility, and you along with the majority of theist, tend to have 'Susceptible Temporal Lobes', they pick up more on magnetic fields. They promote the feeling a someone behind you and the same. Now this explains feeling a presence. It's not, it's excitement going on in the Temporal Lobes.




The reason brain damage can lead to these higher states of consciousness is because the so-called ego-self which seperates itself from God, is temporarily impaired.



or... just saying that a spiritual muck isn't run from hurting the brain that carries the soul, but that their is no soul. There is just a feeling that is extremely difficult to explain or describe. Yet we are coming closer to solving it, day after day after day.




Who created the whiteboard for us to paint our images on? Why are we creative, why do we create if creation is no inherent quality of the Universe?



The white board, well could this not of 'always' been here, there is no need for a creator, he is as useless as us. Creativity, is an evolutionary product. We must be quick and manage things other species couldn't. Spears, bow and arrows. Heck rocks were taking on a whole new meaning. Creativity was why some would live and some would die, breeding the creativity in us, further and further.

Debate Question 1

Why do I say that improved health doesn't Help?

Because a ailing brain, is not good for our evolutionary track, it is not beneficial to have this in any way!

Why a child is undergoing chemo, the church simply prays for the boy, now no studies have shown that praying changes anything from templeton to gallop. They tend to have worse effects actually!

Now, if the church really wanted to help, they would donate and help him fight it, instead they choose to just 'make themselves' feel better, by saying 'I called upon the lord for you, you will be blessed...unless he really, really, wants you".

The boy dies. Thinking he's going to this great place. Good everyone is not upset or anxious. But the boy is dead.

Now it stunts our creativity, cues back to where I put it in here. People spend their lifetimes trying to interpret the bible and make up excuses for why a god does exist. Now this time could well be spent, curing cancer, curing aids, a cure for james blunt! lol

There is so much we could do without it. If atheists left the US,

SOURCES:
Over 10% of American population are atheist:
www.atheistempire.com...

Less than 0.25% of prisoners are atheist:
holysmoke.org...

Majority of Nobel Prize winners atheist:
The Religiosity and Religious Affiliation of Nobel Prize Winners (Beit-Hallahmi, 1989)

Majority of University professors atheist:
Religion and Spirituality among University Scientists (Ecklund, 2007)

Majority of scientists atheist:
freethoughtpedia.com...

Atheist Intellectuals:
brainz.org...
www.celebatheists.com...:Atheist

Atheist Celebrities:
www.celebatheists.com...

Poverty rate lower among atheists:
Society Without God (Zuckerman, 2008)

IQ higher among atheists:
www.interfaith.org...

Illiteracy rate lower among atheists:
United Nations Human Development Report (2004)

Average Income higher among atheists:
United Nations Human Development Report (2004)

Divorce rate lower among atheists:
www.religioustolerance.org...

Teen pregnancy rate lower among atheists:
www.americablog.com...

Abortions lower among atheists:
Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies: A First Look (Paul, 2005)

STD infection lower among atheists:
www.timesonline.co.uk...

Crime rate lower among atheists:
Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies: A First Look (Paul, 2005)

Homicide rate lower among atheists:
Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies: A First Look (Paul, 2005)

Percentage of atheists in the countries mentioned:
www.adherents.com...

Find the rest of the sources listed here www.youtube.com...

Now this isn't a bad trade off now is it, having a bit higher blood pressure, but a much more extravagant and wonderful brain.




Why is it so important to atheists what others believe? Why do atheists not just let other people believe whatever they want to?



9.11, Because people followed bush when he said god wanted him to invade iraq.
So people will stop blowing themselves up in mosque and churches. So people atheists can keep their job without discrimination. So your sons in Iraq aren't beheaded.
Fox reporters even had to claim they weren't christian for fear of death.
These are to name a few.




You are defending the position of the atheist perfectly.

Debate Question 2: What do you think about the idea that "Force causes Counter-Force"?


I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying here, if you could elaborate. I'm also running out of room.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 04:27 AM
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Formal Rebuttal



Good and evil, is speculative, one mans good is another mans evil


Moral relativism rears its ugly head again. The sad thing is that is attitude is championed by atheist-influenced modern Academia as well. All the atrocities and suffering in the world stem from mankinds inability to recognize what is detrimental to life (and hence "evil").

Of course, if you re-define life saying that survival of the human species is not important, then murder is not "evil".

Whether something is "good" or "bad" does depend on frame-of-reference or context, that is correct. However, most humans have agreed upon living in a context in which survival/progress/well-being is viewed as desirable.
And within this framework good and bad can easily be defined.



Children are being taught that 'The one and Only way to "Save" your soul is to believe in Jesus" for the Judeos, specifically. This is quite the burden to place on a child



Yes, Ive already agreed with how indoctrination is no good. Personally, I believe in a Supreme Being but it is none of my business what others believe. In fact, I very much oppose telling children what to believe and I in fact do not mention my spiritual beliefs in the company of children.




'Susceptible Temporal Lobes', they pick up more on magnetic fields. They promote the feeling a someone behind you and the same. Now this explains feeling a presence. It's not, it's excitement going on in the Temporal Lobes.


You´re mixing up cause and effect, imo. A tuning fork that reacts to vibration is not the "cause" of the vibration but merely the indicator of vibration. Likewise the brain is not "causing" the presence of energy-fields but merely picking up changes within it. The brain is much smaller than a speck of dust when contrasted with Infinity, and your life nothing but a drop in the water when contrasted with eternity. Therefore implying that brain to be some type of causal agent and the Infinite Field (God) not to exist is ludicrous.

If you`d at least say "I do not know whether it exists or not" one could take the atheist stance more seriously.



their is no soul.


There is not a single culture in the history of mankind that does not refer to souls, energy-bodies or awareness/consciousness independent of the body. Words for non-physical energies have been numerous..."ka", "prana", "soul", "the field", "astral", etc.

The reason they cannot be measured by physical tools is because they are non-physical. They can be experienced however, with clearly outlined mystical practices, prayer, meditation.

Trying to measure the non-linear, spiritual domain with linear, physical tools is inedequate. Its just about as inedequate as someone religious trying to convince an atheist by using bible-verses





there is no need for a creator, he is as useless as us.


I quote this part in order to exemplify, for the reader, the apathetic mindset of the atheist. "Life is meaningless and you are useless" is the stuff atheists are made of.



Creativity, is an evolutionary product. We must be quick and manage things other species couldn't. Spears, bow and arrows. Heck rocks were taking on a whole new meaning. Creativity was why some would live and some would die, breeding the creativity in us, further and further.


This is quite in line with the materialist dictum that the human is an automaton that merely reacts to forces of an "objective reality".

The alternative view is that the human is a soul who`s creative power comes from within and who helps to shape the outer reality.

These two views have been poised as "opposites" in the endless debate "Evolution vs. Creationism" and "Newtonian Mechanics vs. Quantum Mechanics"...

...but they are not really opposites which one has to choose between but merely descriptive of two different paradigms and realities. As such, both wordviews have some truth to them.

Personal experience shows us that we have both animal-qualities (predatory, reactive, instinctive, agressive) and higher qualities of mind and spirit.



Because a ailing brain, is not good for our evolutionary track, it is not beneficial to have this in any way!


I asked you why you say health improvement is not important/good and you answer "Because an unhealthy brain is not good". With all due respect, I do not understand the logic of this.



Why a child is undergoing chemo, the church simply prays for the boy, now no studies have shown that praying changes anything from templeton to gallop. They tend to have worse effects actually!


I recognize that much of religion is misguided, which is why I am not a member of religion myself. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with belief in spiritual reality and a divine life force.

The fact that you bring it up again, proves that you are not actually adressing my posts but following a script that is rebellious toward Christianity.




People spend their lifetimes trying to interpret the bible and make up excuses for why a god does exist. Now this time could well be spent, curing cancer, curing aids


I am very supportive of science efforts. Your views of spiritual people are very narrow if you think that spirituality contradicts science.

I have read the greatest scientific works of mankind with great enthusiasm. I am currently reading up on Stephen Hawking and Sting Theory - which, by the way, confirms that the invisible is of a higher order than the visible.



Over 10% of American population are atheist


The number of people following a certain system of thought is indicative of nothing, much less of truth, as evidenced by the horrendous Catholic Inquisition or by Nazi-Germany.



Majority of University professors atheist


In these "studies" "no religous belief" was automatically categorized as "atheist". However, they could also very well be agnostic or spiritually-minded.




IQ higher among atheists


One of the more popular recent threads in this Discussion Forums is about atheists being more intelligent than religious believers.

I always get a good laugh at the "my dick is bigger than yours" stance of atheists.

Anyone remotely familiar with Psychology recognizes the atheists narcisstic need to be superiour - the very attitude that lead to the dark sides of religion. Psychologically speaking, the atheist first rebells against authority and then makes himself bigger than the authority.

Its so infantile its laughable.



Illiteracy rate lower among atheists
Poverty rate lower among atheists


If you cook your stats a bit you can easily come up with this nonsense.

The fact that is quite blatant is that explicitly atheistic countries such as the Soviet Union, Cuba and North Korea, have some of the highest rates of poverty, not lowest.




9.11, Because people followed bush when he said god wanted him to invade iraq. So people will stop blowing themselves up in mosque and churches. So people atheists can keep their job without discrimination. So your sons in Iraq aren't beheaded.


Again, my appreciation of a Supreme Being has nothing to do with justifying acts of war or with people blowing themselves up.

I repeat: In an effort to deceive the public, atheists focus on the very worst in religion - the extremists and fanatics, in order to smear spirituality.

Your posts themselves are evidence of this.



Fox reporters even had to claim they weren't christian for fear of death.


Thank you for supporting my point that militant atheists are just as crazy and dangerous as the fanatically religious.



(Debate Question 2: What do you think about the idea that "Force causes Counter-Force"?)

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying here, if you could elaborate. I'm also running out of room.



Action causes Reaction. Force creates Counter-Force. The movement of a Pendulum.

An example:

Religions harrass the populace with Force, trying to Force them to believe this and that.

This creates a counter-movement of atheists who in turn, harrass the populace with Force.

This creates an even more agressive brand of religion...

which in turn causes an even more agressive brand of atheism.

The struggle as more to do with one group hating another. It all has very little to do with whether a Supreme Being and Higher Spiritual Realities exists or not.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 05:38 AM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 





In fact, I very much oppose telling children what to believe and I in fact do not mention my spiritual beliefs in the company of children.



I am very glad to hear this. Very glad. I wish you would partake in destroying religion, so they may no longer indoctrinate children, whilst banishing others soul to hell and what not.

I would suppose you're very against the Pledge of Alligance in Schools, With " One nation Under God.?
I wish it be gone, although that's another debate of a Secular America, that would be much easier, and to the point.



If you`d at least say "I do not know whether it exists or not" one could take the atheist stance more seriously.


I'd like to point out here for the readers. Had I said that I know not whether it exists, or does not exist, I would not of been taken seriously, either by me or Skyfloating. I would of been counted out as a agnostic.

Albeit it on a Dawkins scale of 1-7. I must admit I rank the same as Dawkins, I'm a 6.9 Although in 'The god delusion", he claims to be a 6 straight, but in further debates afterward, he stated to be a 6.9 out of 1-7.

I cannot ultimately prove that a deity doesn't exist, I can only propose articles, facts, and serious self inquires, to why God Does Not Exist.

It is the basis of this, whether, you ultimately live the life to your fullest or to another persons view of fullest.

If you live your life to believe it is the only one you get, and understand that, not only are you alive, but you had no choice but to be alive, and UNDERSTAND that this is a one time to get this opportunity, they ultimately take their life for what it is, and protect their family (not stone those who do wrong in absurd ideas of a deity proposed).



I quote this part in order to exemplify, for the reader, the apathetic mindset of the atheist. "Life is meaningless and you are useless" is the stuff atheists are made of.


To the readers also, this is the common attack, covertly, that provides a Upper Strike from a theists, they criticize us by us interpreting that life is meaningless. Whilst feasting upon the fact that those which are 'normal' per say, wanting to be extraordinary people. Some 90% of Americans believe they are above average intelligence. What need be if we ask them if they are more then this mere life.

Atheism, is distraught, depressing, and very intriguing. It's a turn away from faerie tales, many do not like this idea, and steer toward, well what does it hurt 'TO BELIEVE', well if I haven't convinced you yet, then some will bomb building and churches and mosque commit genocide, with you supporting them all the way.



I asked you why you say health improvement is not important/good and you answer "Because an unhealthy brain is not good". With all due respect, I do not understand the logic of this.


Insert insult, yet I comprehend, how from another persons mind, wouldn't understand this, by taking myself out of my shoes


A brain is the evolutionary pinnacle of life! The brain has damned us to the top of the food chain, it has damned us to question the dogmatics, well some brains wish not to, we question the unquestionable, and question that which question the unquestionable who may or may not question the dogmas'.





I always get a good laugh at the "my dick is bigger than yours" stance of atheists.


I get a kick out of the, theists: "My dick may not be big, but I can work it", in account to an atheists, "My dick is not only big, but it can be used, exceptionally well!"

This is Off topic though, and a whole different debate, which would wake up a few girls over here




Psychologically speaking, the atheist first rebells against authority and then makes himself bigger than the authority.



It's not laughable, religously speaking, I of thought that god, was a majestic, and insert poetic word here, to sway the weak. I figured him to be the only one to slam a revolving door, to make sandwich with jalapenos to hot for him to eat! Until I read of the judaic god, hindu god, allah. and so on. Till barfing commences.

It is not a rebellious thing, that is to undermine a thinker, it subjects the reader to think it is an adolescent stage, that one will outgrow, but we all outgrew santa claus at one point or another. Or the elvis is still alive.



The fact that is quite blatant is that explicitly atheistic countries such as the Soviet Union, Cuba and North Korea, have some of the highest rates of poverty, not lowest.


The ignorance, is not worth a note. Dictators, and N. Korea, is a necrocracy. Far from an atheist society. LOL, N. Korea. Don't go there, that's another debate, which might be on topic if proposed.



Your posts themselves are evidence of this.


Agreed, religion shan't be discussed, just the ideology of a deity, or agnostic god. Done.



which in turn causes an even more agressive brand of atheism.


WOW!


A more aggressive atheist! Wow, the small minority of us, are so aggressive and attacking that religion must boosts itself.

If those who promote doubt are so troublesome even in the smallest of numbers, and the most discriminated group of people (opposed to blacks, gays and jews, and all the others)



The struggle as more to do with one group hating another. It all has very little to do with whether a Supreme Being and Higher Spiritual Realities exists or not.


WRONG! Most of these groups have lot to do with a Supreme Being. Existing or being, a bigger dick then the other.
Or the Only Dick.



My Part

Debate Question 1.

Why do you think, there not only must, but has to be a deity that created the universe we happen to live in.

Debate Question 2.

What argument do you propose that suggests there must be a 'Creator', for our life to be. (To be regarded or disregarded, please remove all 'poetic' senses, words, for the awww audience, that believes, in poetic senses.)

Debate Question 3.

What does your agnostic (if I may suppose nicely) belief in a being, offer more, then a belief in no god.

As atheist, tend to be kind to gays, and not wish damnation of eternal fire and brimstone upon them.



I am considered a Atheist, although, i'm a Fighter in Atheism. I feel the need to be one, unneeded! We do not have Aastrologists, Acosmologists, Aaliens, AElvis'.

We must have an atheist organization, although we are very contrarian in nature, we are skeptic, but for some reason, it is seen as the seed of the 'devil', I assure you I am not satan, I do not believe in satan. AND OHH. I do know of the great movie quote "Satans greatest accomplishment was convincing the earth that he doesn't exist."

As far as I can observe, most do believe he exist, so his accomplishement would be miniscule!

As for your question, force does create a contour force, an opposing force.

Although antielvisist being alive, would feel the same way, although, the general consensus is against it. So side and majority has won.

Your view of atheism, is of a hate mongering one.

If I can appease the MODS by presenting a link to one video, as I appear to have posted no videos and no images, as of yet.
'
This link, may it be of your time.

I believe it summoning, what I have said.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 12:34 PM
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Originally posted by Republican08
I wish you would partake in destroying religion


No thanks. With wording like that you are actually building my case for me, namely that both fanatic religion and activist atheism are destructive forces, hence detrimental to humanity.

I dont believe in destroying other peoples belief-systems but in respecting them. This is based on the spiritual virtues of Love and Tolerance.



I would suppose you're very against the Pledge of Alligance in Schools, With " One nation Under God.?


I do not mind it. It can be removed, or stay, both is fine with me. Im actually quite sick of the pro-religion and anti-religion activists who make a big fuss out of stuff like this. There is nothing inherently wrong with paying respect to the most high in school. Nor is there anything inherently wrong with doing without it in school and just keeping religion at home. My tendency is toward giving the spiritual some respect in school, but if it is decided that that should not be so, then so be it.



I'd like to point out here for the readers. Had I said that I know not whether it exists, or does not exist, I would not of been taken seriously, either by me or Skyfloating. I would of been counted out as a agnostic.


Perhaps you`ll become more agnostic one day. Its often the "next evolutionary step"





I cannot ultimately prove that a deity doesn't exist


Then just relax. Chill out. Go catch some rays at the beach. Revel in the beauty of the sunset. Learn to play the guitar. Go surfing. And leave the religious alone, let them do their thing.



will bomb building and churches and mosque commit genocide, with you supporting them all the way.


Again, this has nothing to do with religion, and even less to do with belief in a higher purpose of life. It has more to do with insanity. Allow me to remind us what religion is my quoting the Encyclopedia


A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices, often with a supernatural or transcendent quality, that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, God or gods, or ultimate truth





A brain is the evolutionary pinnacle of life!


Is it? Looking at the Universe in the night sky seems more awesome to me than looking at a fleshy brain.




Until I read of the judaic god, hindu god, allah. and so on. Till barfing commences.


Debate Question 1: What could be the purpose of respect or reverence?

Debate Question 2: How would you define desecration?




we all outgrew santa claus at one point or another. Or the elvis is still alive.


Debate Question 3: What does Santa Clause have to do with peoples sincere study of theology and spirituality?

Debate Question 4: What do you gain from ridiculing and wanting to destroy millions of peaceful (not war-mongering!) and decent spiritual and religious practitioners?

Debate Question 5: What could the beneficial purpose of humility be?




N. Korea, is...Far from an atheist society. LOL



According to Human Rights Watch, free religious activities no longer exist in North Korea as the government sponsors religious groups only to create an illusion of religious freedom. According to Religious Intelligence the situation of religion in North Korea is the following:[111]

Irreligion: 15,460,000 adherents (64.31% of population, the vast majority of which are adherents of the Juche philosophy
Source




and the most discriminated group of people (opposed to blacks, gays and jews, and all the others)


Belief in a Supreme Being has nothing whatsoever to do with hatred of blacks, gays, jews, etc. Where do you get these strange ideas? Let me guess: From your rebellion against fundamentalist-christian/islamic nutcases you think are representative of "religion".



Debate Question 1. Why do you think, there not only must, but has to be a deity that created the universe we happen to live in.


My appreciation of the most high came about through a number of mystical ("supernatural") experiences throughout my lifetime, among them an ocassion of samadhi/satori at the age of 14, a mystical experience called "Kundalini Awakening" at the age of 22, astral-travel at the age 25 to 27 and a few other events.

However, I am not saying there "must" be a creator. I am more than willing to drop any and all beliefs. But I cannot deny what I experience.



Debate Question 2. What argument do you propose that suggests there must be a 'Creator', for our life to be.


I do not propose that there "must" be one. I propose that those who prefer to believe in a higher creative force be allowed to practice their belief rather than being threatened with destruction or ridiculed on a regular basis.

But the idea of all of this...being a product of coincidence rather than creative design...seems a little bit off to me...and a few other people.




Debate Question 3. What does your agnostic (if I may suppose nicely) belief in a being, offer more, then a belief in no god.


I am not an agnostic because my life is dedicated to a Supreme Being and Source-of-all that is. I am only saying that agnosticism is of a higher intelligence than atheism.

What does a belief in God offer? The possibility for extremely advanced states of consciousness, bliss, ecstasy and enlightenment.

Contrast that with what we`ve seen atheists do...pee on Bibles and spray graffitti on churches and the choice of lifestyle is simple.



As atheist, tend to be kind to gays, and not wish damnation of eternal fire and brimstone upon them.


This has nothing to do with me or millions of other people who believe in a Supreme Being.

Claiming that spiritual people hate gays, blacks, jews etc. reveals the simplistsic mind of the atheist.



We must have an atheist organization, although we are very contrarian in nature, we are skeptic, but for some reason, it is seen as the seed of the 'devil',


I do not see atheism as the "seed of the devil". I see it as an infantile belief-system based on rebellion and lacks vision and progressiveness.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 11:53 PM
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No thanks. With wording like that you are actually building my case for me, namely that both fanatic religion and activist atheism are destructive forces, hence detrimental to humanity.


The wording, was in poor taste. Disassemble, the roots of religion. Better





I dont believe in destroying other peoples belief-systems but in respecting them. This is based on the spiritual virtues of Love and Tolerance.


Your trespassing on morality. You cannot possibly tell me that Love and Tolerance, are purely and originated from the "Spiritual" nature....



Again, this has nothing to do with religion, and even less to do with belief in a higher purpose of life. It has more to do with insanity. Allow me to remind us what religion is my quoting the Encyclopedia


Reading that, and reading the Bible and Quran, I would hope, the religious leaders filed down the original texts, then pick and chose what they thought was good, and what they chose to ignore. Common trait for the religious.

Insanity, defined by me, would be a delusional person, one who may believe the things like: One day the sun will turn black from a pretty big clothe, a man on a horse will come from the clouds and save us all, one day I will be SUCKED out of my body and pulled directly to heave, (studies show that around 50% of the US believes this will happen sometime in the next 50 years
, believing that it's possible to regenerate your body after being dead for three days whilst fighting the good fight in hell, oh, and contrarian like, assuming the earth is 6,000 years old.


Again for this, refer back, to the Elvis, many believe he's alive, although their not completely insane, their just highly delusional. Although they may go and do certain things for a belief in an absurd idea. They may want to convince you that Elvis is alive, perhaps because they wouldn't want to live in a world without Elvis.

It happens, 12 People have already offed themselves, due to the fact, solely that Michael Jackson died...

Atheism, doesn't preach as you said in your open, that we change the belief system from Divine Boogie Monster, to a Human Leader, i'm atheist, and have no devotion nor awe of Obama, heck for any leader, i'm skeptical. No i'm not extremely narccisitic, and believe that I am god, or hold myself that way, i'm not to incredibly fond of myself, I don't think i'd ever think that i'm a divine like being of men.





Is it? Looking at the Universe in the night sky seems more awesome to me than looking at a fleshy brain.


Well, this brain allows you to view that beauty, but of course, it could be possible the brain isn't that good, you need a divine side to see it. I don't know.

Debate Question 1: What could be the purpose of respect or reverence?

1) In what context. I'll give it a shot though.

Respect, should be given to someone who deserves respect. A respectable person.
A person unwarranted of respect, should be given none.

Now don't spin this, and come off with, well then we shall treat all of those without a respect worthy name, and tear them to shreds, no life isn't exactly like the news.

Those who don't deserve respect are withheld from respect and complete bashing.

Debate Question 2: How would you define desecration?

2) Without it, it stays as is, a Dogma. Skeptics and all doubters and wonders are to be caught on quickly, and turned away from desecration.

Why should we not question a sacred item. I'd like to have that rock the muslims cling to so badly, and have it inspected although, that would be desecration, I mean look at the trouble we had to go through, just to get a little snippet of a cloth that looks like jesus, or any hairy man for that matter.

Blood on it was a womans blood from testing, and they concluded that perhaps since he was born of a virgin, that he would only have woman dna or whatever. So Jesus was a girl... Or someone lied about being a virgin...again. Cue Wedding Crashers.




Debate Question 3: What does Santa Clause have to do with peoples sincere study of theology and spirituality?



What does santa claus not have to do with it!

From a small vulnerable age, kids are of course told in a nice, and altruistic being, that will give them presents, on one day, (except for the jewish, they get a bit longer then a day, and no santa!)

Now the child really believes in it, so obedience to be sure they get a present, they straighten up, this means does not justify the end.

You've tricked a child into believing in something we all know is ridiculous, not only does the child believe in it, but the change their lifestyle because of this Child Societal Dogma.

Desecration of Santa Claus in the school system, can be worthy of penalty. See where i'm getting at.

Children see the presents, they feel santa must of sent them, look it's even got his signature! He must of been here.

lol, too funny.

Now the mystery eventually overcomes them when they find out, and a few tears and slammed doors and a new bike to confuse them into not being upset, set in.

Now we know how it works, how the presents got their, our parents put them their, and children slaves made most of them. Now this seems a bit dull, and well it's not a fancy story of reindeer and a fat man flying around in his immortality.

They've even made morality movies off of this 'theory'! So on and so forth.



Debate Question 4: What do you gain from ridiculing and wanting to destroy millions of peaceful (not war-mongering!) and decent spiritual and religious practitioners?


To stop their pacifist support indirectly know by them for terrorists and extremist.

So they don't donate 8 million dollars all at once for a man claiming God will kill him if he doesn't receive 8 million dollars, I'd source but you already know.

So Ted Haggard doesn't get rich off of preaching hypocrisy.

So people don't look for divinity in rocks and cheetos. And focus on real issues in the world.

So the ayatollah no longer thinks, he should bring about the apocalypse along with Ahmadenijad.


So people stop praying and start acting.

If my sister had cancer, I would never pray for her. I would quit my job, quit everything, and make sure that she survived.

So I can stop getting those (selfsnip) letters on my door telling me about hell and a price was paid and hey by the way, you were born evil and must go through a process for some inbred seeming people who started the whole process.

Or so instead of pamphlets describing hell being given to waiters instead of tips to help them eat, and have better quality of life.

So people stop crutching on a belief which holds no ground, and start taking some darn responsibility for their own lives, instead of blaming it on karma, the will of a deity, the darn salt shaker falling over.

Debate Question 5: What could the beneficial purpose of humility be?

Really laying down the questions aren't you!

I do see the game your playing with these questions, and I refuse to fall into it. You ask the questions seemingly innocently but their loaded like a 12 gauge. You want me to answer one way to say aha, why don't you take your own advice. It's easy.

With a synonym of Submissiveness I don't find this to great of a thing.

I see no purpose in the question other then a planned backlash.

To know ones rank, and also known as 'low'. No, you can know your own rank, but not belittle yourself further. I'm a humble person in the universe, although here on this forsaken rock destined for damnation, like everything else in the universe, find myself of little time, to help, and raise awareness, and find myself lucky to be able to hopefully make a difference in the world with my studies.



Korean shamanism: 3,846,000 adherents (16% of population)
Cheondoism: 3,245,000 adherents (13.50% of population)
Buddhism: 1,082,000 adherents (4.50% of population)
Christianity: 406,000 adherents (1.69% of population)



Don't forget these guys there too!

In response to your statistics, where, labeling all I guess seemed to be elusive?



Belief in a Supreme Being has nothing whatsoever to do with hatred of blacks, gays, jews, etc. Where do you get these strange ideas?


Seriously? Seriously?

A mormon, is more likely to be elected president, than a atheist.

Discrimination has to do, we all know blacks, gays, jews, etc. Are all discriminated against by some people, but of all Atheists, are the most discriminated against.



But the idea of all of this...being a product of coincidence rather than creative design...seems a little bit off to me...and a few other people.


Because they see a tree, and never look at the forest.

If you could see on a atomic level, you would flip, its chaotic particles are colliding and shaking, whats going on! Then you get bigger and see organization. Then you get really big, and bam! What's going on everything is clashing into each other and exploding!



I am only saying that agnosticism is of a higher intelligence than atheism.


Ignorance, sheer ignorance, I've researched, and there is no perfect study determining one side over another. Trust me, I would've wanted my side to win, just as how you claim your side a false hit.



I do not see atheism as the "seed of the devil"


See, this would've been a good quote, without all the infantile, and attacking.



There is ultimately, no purpose for mumbling hopes and wishes to something that isn't there.

Except for removing responsibility for your own life.

(selfsnip) Happens. So do good things.

The universe, has a particularly well background, which would be good for a lack of a deity. And we haven't even touched base on Parellel Universes.


Although, that is a very slippery slope.

Well, i've got a few dozens words left, so I'll leave it at this.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 04:08 AM
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Closing

Atheism as a Consequence of Corrupted Religion

A-theism is the rebellion against corrupted religion. Most wars that have been fought, have been fought in the name of Religion. When Corrupted, the all-inclusive nature of the Divine is taken, given the label of one group that opposes or is "superior" to all other groups. The most high is replaced by false idols and personifications one kneels down to worship like a slave.

Considering the stupidity that has been spread in the name of Religion, it is understandable that many people prefer to define themselves as Skeptics-of-the-Supernatural and Atheists.

I meant to point out that there is also another way of believing in God - which really has nothing to do with suppressing blacks (racism) and gays (homophobia), suppressing sexuality ("Puritanism"), nothing to do with cults and indoctrination. I fully agree with the atheist that these are the products of ignorance. The all-inclusive nature of God (Infinity) includes everyone and everything without excluding certain groups or people as worthy of attack or discrimination.

Since my worldview is slightly buddhistic, based on peace, prosperity, and the relief from the suffering inherent within the human condition, I oppose the dualistic nature of religion, but also the dualistic nature of atheism.

What does dualistic in this sense mean?

It means that war is not solved by anti-war but by pro-peace.

Violence is not solved by counter-violence.

Religion is not solved by anti-religion.

The anti-stance only feeds that which it claims to overcome. It only rocks the boat even more. So one week we have fundamentalist nutjobs bombing a homosexual disco. And next week, as retribution, we have "gay-activists" shredding a church.

Thats the natural consequence of creating extreme polarities.

I also mean to point out that, as ignorant and vile as "Religion" has been, it is also directly responsible for some of the greatest mankind has to offer: The building of the United States for example, is based on religion. The building of much of the most beautiful architecture is based on Religion. Amazing acts of heroism and kindness throughout History are based on Religion. Mankinds willingness to work for a higher goal, to have something worth working for is based on religious values. Things such as the Ten Commandments...that tell us not to steal, lie, kill, have elevated us from primitive barbarianism to sophistication. 99% of all people who practice religion are not pedophiles or suicide-bombers but actually very nice people.

The atheist, in his rebellious-mode-of-thinking often lacks discernment, generalizing, claiming that religious people are either complete idiots ("santa clause exists!") or wicked war-mongers.

_______________________________________________

There are other implications of atheism that are more troubling. In its manifestation as "Skepticism", Newtonian-ism, mechanistic reductionism, it becomes anti-spiritual and decries any sort of higher reality. Love is then nothing other than "chemical reactions". Satori is then nothing other than "Temporal Lobe Epilepsy". Many thousands of years of research on spiritual phenomena are arrogantly trashed with questionable "studies".

With demonic behaviours described as "the lower astral realms" by spiritual sages of the ages, such as rape, torture, murder, betrayal, bestiality, deception, conspiracy, dishonesty, rage and fear, etc. it then becomes "a matter of perspective" whether these are bad or not. This type of moral and ethical relativism is widespread in atheists, as can be evidenced right here in my Debate-Opponents posts.

Going from a world dominated by Religion to a world Dominated by atheism = going from the frying pan into the fire. One form of ignorance is replaced by another.

If I were to make a "Scale of Ignorance" from the most ignorant to the least ignorant I would position the various stances in this way:

1. Religious Fanatic ("Kill the Infidels in the name of God!")
2. Atheist ("There is no God!")
3. Agnostic ("I dont know whether there is a God or not")
4. Spiritual Person ("I am karmically accountable for my thoughts and actions")

This scale is based on observable effects of the various thought-systems. The effects of the religious fanatic have been destructive, horrific. The effects of the atheist have been antagonistic and disrespectful. The effects of the agnostic have been neutral. The effects of the spiritual have been positive.

In Summary: Given the choice between slandering Mother Theresa (see sourced Discussion-Thread) and committing random acts of kindness, I choose the latter. This is recommended (not commanded) for all who care about humanities survival and the gift of life.



posted on Aug, 16 2009 @ 10:43 PM
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I politely ask for the 24 hour extension.

Appreciated.

Hopefully it won't take that long.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 02:44 AM
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Closing Statement
Atheism


Atheism, would not be what it was, if it wasn't for religion, there is point in that.

Although, the same argument could be posed, that if Astrology was as big as religion, we may need A-Astrologist.

Or for those who do not believe in Elvis being alive still.

A-Elvis'

Atheist-Agnostic, seems appropriate for some, although, I find, such a lack of 'evidence' for a Supreme Being. Though, the probability is low, it's still just as possible as Pink unicorns.

Out of such a universe we live in, with such, nothingness but extreme collisions, and quite a large amount of blazes going around.

Colliding galaxies, and holes sucking up everything possible.

We found a niche! We amazingly became somewhere.

Now I don't want this to go into a watch being made from a hurricane hitting a trash ground. Because that is very very unlikely. Although with natural selection and our new understandings of evolution. We are starting to understand how things came to be, and getting out of our primitive knowledge.

From our starting grounds, we literally, just walked in and saw a man flip a coin 20 times in a row, and they all landed heads up. Although if we had been around the whole time, we would of seen the many trial and errors, and 19 in a row, until ultimately 20.

We didn't wake up in a utopia, but we woke up, in a fairly comfortable place. We had no real understanding of the vastness of the universe, so it was easy to conjure up the idea of a god, creating such a 'nearly' wonderful place. I say nearly because primitive, man would of been very frightened of things such as germs and etc.

Atheist for Jesus' Our morals are not derived from deities/deity, but we know what is right and wrong. It's common sense.

As Hitchens, put it, the people following moses' didn't go around pillaging and raping, stealing and killing, having sex with animals, only to find moses' with Ten Commandments, saying no guys.... this isn't cool.

Saying that spirituality is needed for morality, is offending the human race. That we are so stupid, that if a deity didn't say it, then we would all be doing it.

Obviously, as Richard Dawkins put it, in Nice Guys Finish last.

If one ape picks ticks off another ape, one ape has no apes, but the other ape is left with ticks if the other ape doesn't return the favor, or if no other ape is helpful but merely selfish.

Now say the other apes helped, but noticed the ones that didn't help, and decided to stop picking ticks off of them for their selfishness. Then that would end quite awful for the selfish ape.

Unless of course a spiritual guiding offered them advice, I suppose that would work too.



Not scaling, just stating.

1. Religious Fanatic ("Kill the Infidels in the name of God!")
2. Agnostics ( I don't believe in religious gods, but am not able to give up the idea of god)
3. Atheist ( There is probably no God, There is probably no pink unicorns)
4. Spiritual Person (I like the idea that there is more to life, than what it is)

We believe that, there is no creator.

Life is beautiful, the Universe in it's destructive nature is beautiful.

But i'll leave it at this.



“Isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”
– Douglas Adams



I will say this for atheists. We do not want to start shredding churches, and blowing ourselves up at our local mosque or HEB. To stop people believing in a deity.

We also believe that Dogma's should no longer exist. Any figure or place, can be opinionated and discussed. I see not what harm was caused by questioning the acts of a woman, that some (including) myself seemed near barbaric. Without it being considered an abomination. And 'Sucking'.


I do not think that Religious people are 'Complete Idiots'. Just a bit delusional. Stuck on Wishful thinking.



Love- For a Atheist, maybe just chemical, although the way it feels, is still just the same. It need not Divinity to account for it.

For me.

Given the choice between wishful thinking, and hoping that a Divine Parent is taking care of my life, and respecting the one life I have, and living it to the fullest, knowing there is nothing more to the garden, whilst still repeatedly donating blood, and willfulling doing not random, but purposeful kind acts.

I would choose the latter.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 03:05 AM
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And it's off to the judges!! Please be patient while the judges do their thing..


TheBorg



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 12:24 AM
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Ok all!! We have a sweeping winner!! Congrats go to Skyfloating for this victory!! Both of these guys fought hard for it, and both should be commended for an excellent fight.

Thank you both for participating, and once again, congrats Sky!!

Below you'll find the comments from the judges.

Judge 1's Comments:


Challenge Match: Republican08 vs Skyfloating: "Atheism vs. Theism"

Well this was certainly an interesting debate…

I read Skyfloating’s opening and was suitably impressed as I expected to be with 2 such great members going at it, then I read Republican08’s and what the??? Was my first impression…

The opening should be where the fighter lays out their intentions and what they are going to present to us, the reader. I had no idea after reading Republican08’s post where he was going with this.

Disjointed and all over the place would be putting it mildly, I could only hope that he picked the pace up as the debate progressed, but this was certainly a rocky start.

I did notice that in the first reply, Republican08 exceeded the number of links allowed in the instructions at the beginning of the debate, but he did rally some from his opening statement. The link issue would prove to be a moot point… His answers to Skyfloating’s post were more on spot.

Skyfloating continued on presenting the material to support his case.

One thing that was instantly noticeable about the differences in approach, was that Republican08 gave examples of what “may” happen or used examples to illustrate his position, while Skyfloating attacked the very base of Atheism..

Skyfloating’s comment here:
You´re mixing up cause and effect, imo.
Was very indicative of a vast majority of the debate.

OK, let’s get this done…

This debate was a pure slam dunk…

The entire read felt as if republican08 was trying to convince himself he was an Atheist. Not supporting the position or attacking Theism.. It was actually strange to read for the most part as even the answers to Skyfloating’s questions were ramblings about his personal thoughts and not supportive of the position at all…

Anyway..

Skyfloating by a mile.


Judge 2's comments:


It started off really good, I was seeing it as tied during the intro. Then it looks like Republican08 was running out of a rubuttal. Skyfloating kept a strong defense after their equal ititial posts. So, going to say one vote in Skys favor.

Skyfloating;
Argued the best debate in my opinion, the other side started off great, but failed to keep a solid counter.


And Judge 3's Comments:


"Atheism vs. Theism"
, I think Skyfloating gave a far more coherant and planned debate, therefore I vote for Skyfloating in this Debate.


TheBorg

[edit on 31-8-2009 by TheBorg]





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