Originally posted by zazzafrazz

On an aside regarding the current human female not being able to give birth to a neanderthal skull, the Neanderthal famale birth canal was larger but the infant skulls were not vastly different. So it is plausible that if the child didnt abort in a human female it could have fit coming out her canal if surviving full term ..Biologically could the egg be fertalised by another species and survive is the question more than the canal and skull.

If we do stick with traditional thought that the Neanderthalis skull was bigger at birth then I would say that interbreeding still may have taken place at times, but not to the level of species replacement. Hominoid male behaviour would have them protect their females from competitor species breeding, but would themselves breed with neanderthalis females as a social/physical behaviour...who could give birth to a smaller skull.

There is a theory that we outbred them not killed them off because we had bigger brains, but because we bred faster....I like this one too, but I think it was all three assumptions:
Rabbit like procreation by current humans
interbreeding between the hominoids (least occuring)
and perpetualtion of the fittest/smartest

Thanks for the feedback zazzafrazz.

I'm just winging this from memory but will note some of what I recall is from conversations with expert Stan Gooch himself when we both lived in London.

It should be noted the shortage of Neanderthal skulls for study may be skewing what we know about cranial capacities. From what I was told the actual adult braincase size was not so much different as structured differently with a relatively larger cerebellum and slightly smaller cerebrum.

I think the projected problem of delivery with larger heads trying to pass through narrower birth canals may be overestimated based on unrepresentative sampling. Possibly there were other undetectable factors limiting successful births like mismatching blood types, conflicting antibodies, etc.

A lot of Neanderthal presumptions are highly speculative. Homo sapiens neandertalis had a rudimentary culture, stone tools, and was apparently introspective. His competitors apparently were better at refined stone and bone tools and weapons which may have been the final deciding advantage.

Probably other factors we can only guess at like the relative ability to survive adverse climactic conditions and harsh winters.

Mike

Originally posted by kidflash2008
I also read in Colin Wilson's book that Neanderthal Man had bigger brains than we did. That may indicate they were smarter.

BTW, I have put the books by Stan Gooch on my wish list.

My older avatar was of Bart Allen in the Kid Flash outfit. I changed my avatar to reflect my personality more. Bastet was the perfect choice, and I would change the moniker if I could. Although I still like comics, I haven't collected them is years. I was trying to think of a fun moniker and kidflash came up. I use it at other sites because I tend to forget things and would not always remember a dozen different names.

Cro-magnon man was Ford, Neanderthal was General Motors. Survival of the fittest. Neanderthal was likeley more empathetic and in tune with nature. But didn't develop the improved tools and weapons fast enough for the decided advantage.

Work I used to do took me to the DC Comics offices on a few times. I download comics once in a while to see what's going on. [absolutely everything is online]

Barry Allen is the Flash again. Bart Allen died at least once in DC's very confusing continuity. Good news is death in comics isn't usually fatal.


Mike

I am not really certain the direction this thread will ultimately take but I wanted to add a few things with which this distinguished group of scholar’s will be able to take with them. I earlier stated that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon are not a different species and I went on to say that for what it’s worth Neanderthals are still here.

I offered as examples of Neanderthals some of the Kings of Europe, such as the Charlemagne and his male descendents, a couple of Russian emperors, including Pavel Petrovich and Nicholas Romanov and some well known central Asian rulers especially Tamerlane and Ulugh Beg (not a name), his grandson. It would be interesting if samples of these men’s DNA could be acquired and the Y-Chromosome was tested, as most of your understanding of Neanderthals is based solely on analysis of the X-Chromosome; so basically none of you knows anything concerning the topic, but I see you continue to spread disinformation. It’s almost as if Benedict XVI sent some of you here for no other reason than to disrupt any discussion concerning the mystery of the Neanderthal.

I will give to you as a gift this excerpt from National Geographic News:
Neanderthal Genome "First Draft" Unveiled – 2/2009

A first draft of the Neanderthal genome announced today adds to evidence that the extinct human species was lactose intolerant and could have shared some basic language capabilities with modern humans. The human and Neanderthal family trees split off from each other around 450,000 years ago, after which there was little or no mixing between the two species.

The above is just the first paragraph of the article but it supports the idea that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon are not different but share a common origin. They are the same.

What has happened I think is since it is accepted that these two groups were once one, the human beings alive today seem to represent a highly domesticated strain of the species and the purpose of the domestication was to force out from the human gene pool the physically and mentally stronger, more independent Neanderthal traits to acquire a pliable worker for a modern economy which requires job specialization.

Neanderthals still exist, but are isolated and ignored, while the more compliant modern human is allowed to believe ridiculous things about themselves and the world around them.

The story concerning the killing of the Neanderthal by the CroMagnon seems to illustrate the modern human’s abandonment of his true nature and acceptance of his role as nothing more than a domesticated pack animal. In no way different from a Ox or a House Cat.

Those who express a sort of pride from the outcome of the event discussed in the article are showing almost no understanding that they are in fact celebrating what can only be described as their eternal slavery.

The most freightening part of this all is the following cut and paste I just did on Wiki about what Zacharia Sitchin thinks:

He claims they first arrived on Earth probably 450,000 years ago, looking for minerals, especially gold, which they found and mined in Africa. These "gods" were the rank and file workers of the colonial expedition to Earth from planet Nibiru.

I believe the Sitchin story continues to say that these workers got tired of working and modified the Humans to do the work instead...and here you certainly are.

So according to both the National Georgraphic News, a highly respected publication, and Sitchin, a certified nutjob, a separation of human groups occured. I don't even like this guy but you guys are ridiculous. Seriously. Dead Seriously.

[edit on 16-8-2009 by IDK88]

Originally posted by IDK88
I am not really certain the direction this thread will ultimately take but I wanted to add a few things with which this distinguished group of scholar’s will be able to take with them. I earlier stated that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon are not a different species and I went on to say that for what it’s worth Neanderthals are still here.

I offered as examples of Neanderthals some of the Kings of Europe, such as the Charlemagne and his male descendents, a couple of Russian emperors, including Pavel Petrovich and Nicholas Romanov and some well known central Asian rulers especially Tamerlane and Ulugh Beg (not a name), his grandson. It would be interesting if samples of these men’s DNA could be acquired and the Y-Chromosome was tested, as most of your understanding of Neanderthals is based solely on analysis of the X-Chromosome; so basically none of you knows anything concerning the topic, but I see you continue to spread disinformation. It’s almost as if Benedict XVI sent some of you here for no other reason than to disrupt any discussion concerning the mystery of the Neanderthal.

I will give to you as a gift this excerpt from National Geographic News:
Neanderthal Genome "First Draft" Unveiled – 2/2009

[...]

The above is just the first paragraph of the article but it supports the idea that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon are not different but share a common origin. They are the same.

What has happened I think is since it is accepted that these two groups were once one, the human beings alive today seem to represent a highly domesticated strain of the species and the purpose of the domestication was to force out from the human gene pool the physically and mentally stronger, more independent Neanderthal traits to acquire a pliable worker for a modern economy which requires job specialization.

Neanderthals still exist, but are isolated and ignored, while the more compliant modern human is allowed to believe ridiculous things about themselves and the world around them.

The story concerning the killing of the Neanderthal by the CroMagnon seems to illustrate the modern human’s abandonment of his true nature and acceptance of his role as nothing more than a domesticated pack animal. In no way different from a Ox or a House Cat.

Those who express a sort of pride from the outcome of the event discussed in the article are showing almost no understanding that they are in fact celebrating what can only be described as their eternal slavery.

The most freightening part of this all is the following cut and paste I just did on Wiki about what Zacharia Sitchin thinks:

He claims they first arrived on Earth probably 450,000 years ago, looking for minerals, especially gold, which they found and mined in Africa. These "gods" were the rank and file workers of the colonial expedition to Earth from planet Nibiru.

I believe the Sitchin story continues to say that these workers got tired of working and modified the Humans to do the work instead...and here you certainly are.

So according to both the National Georgraphic News, a highly respected publication, and Sitchin, a certified nutjob, a separation of human groups occured. I don't even like this guy but you guys are ridiculous. Seriously. Dead Seriously.

Not sure how seriously you take this. There is a lot of flaky stuff out there claiming Neanderthals are around and a separate lineage. Some lunatic fringe ultra-racist stuff trying to show Jews are Neanderthals fighting an ongoing secret war, etc.

There was a science called Eugenics that thought along these lines. Popular and influential on Nazi thinking.

450,000 years is a long time in human history. We are still trying to figure out things from 10,000 years ago with only a few pieces of the puzzle. A whole pseudo-history is around calling itself Forbidden Archeology or somesuch. Tries to show undiscovered ancient civilizations, Atlantis, etc. So far only a lot of speculation and pure bunk.

As for Sitchin, I'm not sure you accept him on any level. There never has veen any question he is nothing more than a bad Science fiction writer with some pretense of the ability to translate Sumerian texts. He's been outed by Sumerian scholars as a complete fraud.

His notion an technologically advanced group capable of space flight would come here to mine gold, an element present anywhere in the universe and
need labourers using primitive tools and sweat of the brow to obtain it is children's book level fantasy.

Sorry if this rains on your parade.


Mike

Originally posted by IDK88

Some things about people that I've heard in my life I don't accept, but when you come into some of these threads the fringe is given support.

What I like most about coming here to ATS is I get to log out and live my life.

Great attitude. Thanks for the reminder we are more than the sum of our often wonky beliefs.

The past is fascinating. But finding out what happened in the past doesn't alter what is going on today. Good to understand people around you right now.


Mike

[edit on 17-8-2009 by mmiichael]

I went to school with a guy with a heavy brow ridge and beefy muscular body, when I see him now I wonder what his DNA would show

Neanderthal really didn't look that much different from Cro-Magnon.
Whatever led to this fellow's death could have been any number of things, Neaderthal was just as human as we are.

Some of the comments on this thread are a bit interesting, though.
Seems to be a popular opinion that they were better than us. Nothing I can see would indicate that.

Good comparison. Neanderthal man could not compete successfully beside Cro-magnon man. It might have been just a matter of who got the required food during hard times.

Neanderthal probably were better at many things, possibly even smarter in some ways. But not enough to make it to the finish line.

Mike

Originally posted by mmiichael

Good comparison. Neanderthal man could not compete successfully beside Cro-magnon man. It might have been just a matter of who got the required food during hard times.

Neanderthal probably were better at many things, possibly even smarter in some ways. But not enough to make it to the finish line.

Mike

I hold a differing opinion. I think Neanderthals could have competed successfully but that Sapiens held a secret weapon. They brought with them biological weapon(s). These acted on the Neanderthal like the Europeans diseases did to the native Americans or the African diseases to Europeans. They killed them in droves.

Originally posted by Hanslune
I think Neanderthals could have competed successfully but that Sapiens held a secret weapon. They brought with them biological weapon(s). These acted on the Neanderthal like the Europeans diseases did to the native Americans or the African diseases to Europeans. They killed them in droves.

We don't disagree that much. Cro-magnon man had a more capable immune system or at least one able to fight something going around at the time.

I don't see how you extrapolate NM succumbing to a disease brought in by CM?

The Native Indian scenario was one of taking an identified killing disease and willfully spreading it through blankets.

From more than casual reading, I'm pretty convinced NM made it into the gene pool in Europe and the Middle East. Combined features skulls and skeeltons are few so far, they exist.

There are probably elements of the story that have so far eluded us.

Mike

The Native Indian scenario was one of taking an identified killing disease and willfully spreading it through blankets.

Hans: That incident happen centuries after the initial contacts which wiped out up to 90% of the Native Americans, partically the ones who lived in denser agricultural groupings.

From more than casual reading, I'm pretty convinced NM made it into the gene pool in Europe and the Middle East. Combined features skulls and skeeltons are few so far, they exist.

Hans: I'd agree from a common sense point of view but at this point nothing in DNA points to it. A number of labs in Europe are working on it.

There are probably elements of the story that have so far eluded us.

Hans: They probably always will, what did in HN like so many thing, was a basket of reasons and not one main effect that did them in.