Human Killed Neanderthal, Weapons Test Shows

reply to post by mmiichael

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I remember Trinkaus from Washington University is of the school that interbreeding took place. He researched a skull found in a Romanian Bear cave that had both modern hominoid and Neandertalis traits, though the DNA was Neanderthal. There were other human type bones in the cave.
I'll see what I can rustle up on Trinkhaus.


Neandertalis are hominoid. Humans didn't relace Neanderthals, just a type of hominoid replaced another hominoid.....
And I agree that we dont know if this Neanderthal in Scoobys post was murdered, killed yes, but murder...we'll never know.

On an aside regarding the current human female not being able to give birth to a neanderthal skull, the Neanderthal famale birth canal was larger but the infant skulls were not vastly different. So it is plausible that if the child didnt abort in a human female it could have fit coming out her canal if surviving full term ..Biologically could the egg be fertalised by another species and survive is the question more than the canal and skull.

If we do stick with traditional thought that the Neanderthalis skull was bigger at birth then I would say that interbreeding still may have taken place at times, but not to the level of species replacement. Hominoid male behaviour would have them protect their females from competitor species breeding, but would themselves breed with neanderthalis females as a social/physical behaviour...who could give birth to a smaller skull.

There is a theory that we outbred them not killed them off because we had bigger brains, but because we bred faster....I like this one too, but I think it was all three assumptions:
Rabbit like procreation by current humans
interbreeding between the hominoids (least occuring)
and perpetualtion of the fittest/smartest
See article



www.newscientist.com...




[edit on 15-8-2009 by zazzafrazz]

Bible Gateway
Koran Stuff
Talmud

Start from the Beginning and read all the way to the end...also check out extra books. In it Priests explain their role in the destruction of Neanderthal people and the 70,000 years old war they are fighting against them for the Supremacy of what they consider to be their own special and distinct species of humanity. It goes on to explain how all Religions are secretly aligned and only pretend to be antagonistic. Its all quite sickening.

And just for kicks I changed my Avatar to a famous Neanderthal who lived and worked at Samarkand about 575 years ago; to coincide with the Perseid Meteors and his contribution to the science of Astronomy.

So much for the theories that no Neanderthals exist, interbred or co-existed with humans. Its called a cover-up. If you would like further images of Neanderthals that have lived in recent history...read up on Charlemagne, Tamerlane and Pavel Petrovich and Russian and French Kings in general...all Neanderthals.

The only true Kings that have ever ruled men have been Neanderthals.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by IDK88]

[edit on 15-8-2009 by IDK88]

[edit on 15-8-2009 by IDK88]

Thanks for the feedback zazzafrazz.

I'm just winging this from memory but will note some of what I recall is from conversations with expert Stan Gooch himself when we both lived in London.

It should be noted the shortage of Neanderthal skulls for study may be skewing what we know about cranial capacities. From what I was told the actual adult braincase size was not so much different as structured differently with a relatively larger cerebellum and slightly smaller cerebrum.

I think the projected problem of delivery with larger heads trying to pass through narrower birth canals may be overestimated based on unrepresentative sampling. Possibly there were other undetectable factors limiting successful births like mismatching blood types, conflicting antibodies, etc.

A lot of Neanderthal presumptions are highly speculative. Homo sapiens neandertalis had a rudimentary culture, stone tools, and was apparently introspective. His competitors apparently were better at refined stone and bone tools and weapons which may have been the final deciding advantage.

Probably other factors we can only guess at like the relative ability to survive adverse climactic conditions and harsh winters.

Mike

reply to post by mmiichael

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I also read in Colin Wilson's book that Neanderthal Man had bigger brains than we did. That may indicate they were smarter.

BTW, I have put the books by Stan Gooch on my wish list.

My older avatar was of Bart Allen in the Kid Flash outfit. I changed my avatar to reflect my personality more. Bastet was the perfect choice, and I would change the moniker if I could. Although I still like comics, I haven't collected them is years. I was trying to think of a fun moniker and kidflash came up. I use it at other sites because I tend to forget things and would not always remember a dozen different names.

Cro-magnon man was Ford, Neanderthal was General Motors. Survival of the fittest. Neanderthal was likeley more empathetic and in tune with nature. But didn't develop the improved tools and weapons fast enough for the decided advantage.

Work I used to do took me to the DC Comics offices on a few times. I download comics once in a while to see what's going on. [absolutely everything is online]

Barry Allen is the Flash again. Bart Allen died at least once in DC's very confusing continuity. Good news is death in comics isn't usually fatal.


Mike

trinkaus thought



www.livescience.com...


I ve read up more on the 'we bred faster' theory, andI am being pulled towards that more and more.

I am not really certain the direction this thread will ultimately take but I wanted to add a few things with which this distinguished group of scholar’s will be able to take with them. I earlier stated that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon are not a different species and I went on to say that for what it’s worth Neanderthals are still here.

I offered as examples of Neanderthals some of the Kings of Europe, such as the Charlemagne and his male descendents, a couple of Russian emperors, including Pavel Petrovich and Nicholas Romanov and some well known central Asian rulers especially Tamerlane and Ulugh Beg (not a name), his grandson. It would be interesting if samples of these men’s DNA could be acquired and the Y-Chromosome was tested, as most of your understanding of Neanderthals is based solely on analysis of the X-Chromosome; so basically none of you knows anything concerning the topic, but I see you continue to spread disinformation. It’s almost as if Benedict XVI sent some of you here for no other reason than to disrupt any discussion concerning the mystery of the Neanderthal.

I will give to you as a gift this excerpt from National Geographic News:
Neanderthal Genome "First Draft" Unveiled – 2/2009

A first draft of the Neanderthal genome announced today adds to evidence that the extinct human species was lactose intolerant and could have shared some basic language capabilities with modern humans. The human and Neanderthal family trees split off from each other around 450,000 years ago, after which there was little or no mixing between the two species.

The above is just the first paragraph of the article but it supports the idea that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon are not different but share a common origin. They are the same.

What has happened I think is since it is accepted that these two groups were once one, the human beings alive today seem to represent a highly domesticated strain of the species and the purpose of the domestication was to force out from the human gene pool the physically and mentally stronger, more independent Neanderthal traits to acquire a pliable worker for a modern economy which requires job specialization.

Neanderthals still exist, but are isolated and ignored, while the more compliant modern human is allowed to believe ridiculous things about themselves and the world around them.

The story concerning the killing of the Neanderthal by the CroMagnon seems to illustrate the modern human’s abandonment of his true nature and acceptance of his role as nothing more than a domesticated pack animal. In no way different from a Ox or a House Cat.

Those who express a sort of pride from the outcome of the event discussed in the article are showing almost no understanding that they are in fact celebrating what can only be described as their eternal slavery.

The most freightening part of this all is the following cut and paste I just did on Wiki about what Zacharia Sitchin thinks:

He claims they first arrived on Earth probably 450,000 years ago, looking for minerals, especially gold, which they found and mined in Africa. These "gods" were the rank and file workers of the colonial expedition to Earth from planet Nibiru.

I believe the Sitchin story continues to say that these workers got tired of working and modified the Humans to do the work instead...and here you certainly are.

So according to both the National Georgraphic News, a highly respected publication, and Sitchin, a certified nutjob, a separation of human groups occured. I don't even like this guy but you guys are ridiculous. Seriously. Dead Seriously.

[edit on 16-8-2009 by IDK88]

Not sure how seriously you take this. There is a lot of flaky stuff out there claiming Neanderthals are around and a separate lineage. Some lunatic fringe ultra-racist stuff trying to show Jews are Neanderthals fighting an ongoing secret war, etc.

There was a science called Eugenics that thought along these lines. Popular and influential on Nazi thinking.

450,000 years is a long time in human history. We are still trying to figure out things from 10,000 years ago with only a few pieces of the puzzle. A whole pseudo-history is around calling itself Forbidden Archeology or somesuch. Tries to show undiscovered ancient civilizations, Atlantis, etc. So far only a lot of speculation and pure bunk.

As for Sitchin, I'm not sure you accept him on any level. There never has veen any question he is nothing more than a bad Science fiction writer with some pretense of the ability to translate Sumerian texts. He's been outed by Sumerian scholars as a complete fraud.

His notion an technologically advanced group capable of space flight would come here to mine gold, an element present anywhere in the universe and
need labourers using primitive tools and sweat of the brow to obtain it is children's book level fantasy.

Sorry if this rains on your parade.


Mike

reply to post by mmiichael

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It doesn't rain on my parade...I am not the one feeling and expressing some kind of false pride acquired from a "human" killing a "neanderthal".

Some things about people that I've heard in my life I don't accept, but when you come into some of these threads the fringe is given support.

What I like most about coming here to ATS is I get to log out and live my life.

Great attitude. Thanks for the reminder we are more than the sum of our often wonky beliefs.

The past is fascinating. But finding out what happened in the past doesn't alter what is going on today. Good to understand people around you right now.


Mike

[edit on 17-8-2009 by mmiichael]

I went to school with a guy with a heavy brow ridge and beefy muscular body, when I see him now I wonder what his DNA would show

Neanderthal really didn't look that much different from Cro-Magnon.
Whatever led to this fellow's death could have been any number of things, Neaderthal was just as human as we are.

Some of the comments on this thread are a bit interesting, though.
Seems to be a popular opinion that they were better than us. Nothing I can see would indicate that.

reply to post by RuneSpider

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They were just a different 'colour' in the spectrum that makes up the 'Homo' line. A branch of the same humanity.

Is a 2 meter tall nobel prize winning Frenchman who also competed in the Olympic games superior or better than an uneducated bushman with a club foot?

In our PC world no, they are equal, in a struggle for survival, depending on the environment one or the other would be 'superior'.

Good comparison. Neanderthal man could not compete successfully beside Cro-magnon man. It might have been just a matter of who got the required food during hard times.

Neanderthal probably were better at many things, possibly even smarter in some ways. But not enough to make it to the finish line.

Mike

I hold a differing opinion. I think Neanderthals could have competed successfully but that Sapiens held a secret weapon. They brought with them biological weapon(s). These acted on the Neanderthal like the Europeans diseases did to the native Americans or the African diseases to Europeans. They killed them in droves.

reply to post by Hanslune

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I was referring to the posters who feel that Neanderthal would have been more peaceful and more in touch with nature than Cro-Magnons.

Doesn't seem very likely as there is good evidence of cannibalism among their groups.

We don't disagree that much. Cro-magnon man had a more capable immune system or at least one able to fight something going around at the time.

I don't see how you extrapolate NM succumbing to a disease brought in by CM?

The Native Indian scenario was one of taking an identified killing disease and willfully spreading it through blankets.

From more than casual reading, I'm pretty convinced NM made it into the gene pool in Europe and the Middle East. Combined features skulls and skeeltons are few so far, they exist.

There are probably elements of the story that have so far eluded us.

Mike

Hans: That incident happen centuries after the initial contacts which wiped out up to 90% of the Native Americans, partically the ones who lived in denser agricultural groupings.




Hans: I'd agree from a common sense point of view but at this point nothing in DNA points to it. A number of labs in Europe are working on it.




Hans: They probably always will, what did in HN like so many thing, was a basket of reasons and not one main effect that did them in.

reply to post by mmiichael

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Thats not true, native americans started to succumb to diseases brought by the europeans immediately. People started to die as soon as contact was made. In some places the native american population was reduced by 90%, centuries before the blanket incidents.

It still happens today with remote tribes in the amazon.
About 15 years ago a documentary film crew and anthropologist made contact with a previously un-contacted tribe. They took every precaution possible to minimize the risk of infection.
And they still managed to bring in some sort of bug, that killed a 1/3 of the villiage, in the weeks after they left.



I dont think disease had much to do with the decline of neanderthal, modern man and neander had been living in the same areas for more than a hundred thousand years, they would have certainly had cross exposure to the natural pool of disease vectors.
And since mankind was still living in small groups, there wasnt a large enough population in any given area for truely dangerous diseases to develop. They would burn themselves out before they would be able to jump to a new group.
It isnt until mankind starts to live in towns and cities, and began to trade with other settlements that diseases really start to really take hold.
The domestication of animals lead to a whole host of new diseases that crossed over from livestock.
And the advent of using animals for transportation meant that an individual who was sick enough to not be able to walk to the next villiage, was now able to ride there and spread the disease. or they could make to several villiages before they started to show symptoms.

This discussion leads me to remember an article I read many years ago about syphilis.
Syphilis is a distinctly new world disease who's natural resevoir is bears, and has been found in the new world WAY before european contact, yet syphilis was present in the old world.
In my opinion this is a "smoking gun" for very early cross contact (after the laurentide impact and before the norse)between the old and new worlds.
In the article the authors had found good evidence for syphilis in roman remains from germany i believe it was.
And they had narrowed down the time span that it jumped from the bears to humans to about 10,000-7000 years ago, in the new world.

reply to post by punkinworks

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Howdy Punkinwork

100,000 years of closeness? In the Middle East yes but Europe??