Chinese essay sparks outcry in India

Originally posted by audas
These figures include imports - production if by US COMPANIES - this includes American companies operating in middle east oil fields.....hmmmm. Its like saying the UK - Dutch have vast supplies because shell is producing large quantities in Nigeria.

No...

It doesn't include those. I'm surprised you jumped to such a false assumptions. You seemed swifter than that. So let me ask you a question? You're saying that the US "Produces" nothing domestically? You are making the claim that what we produce is imported oil?

You're not confusing processing with production are you? Here is the chart again with the link to source provided below. I'll check in to read your replies.
It seemed that you got confused with it. Maybe you made the wrong assumption [again] that I was trying to say that the chart represented our oil reserves. which it obviously is not.

Thanks

Slay

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ce0810f657a3.gif[/atsimg]

US oil production and imports

66 percent of all US crude oil is imported from other countries, and the amount of oil imported from OPEC nations is roughly equal to the amount of oil produced domestically.

[edit on 14-8-2009 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by audas

 

My Mate is asleep in the other room.

And this has to do with what?

Were you going to yell at him? lol

reply to post by SLAYER69


Slayer if you are attempting to provide us with US domestic resources then lets see that ? Again what you have shown us is simply a compilation of what the US produces and imports ???? It is MEANINGLESS TO THIS DISCUSSION -

Further your entire input here has been meaningless to the discussion - seriously get on track.

Further you have questioned my links - they contain significantly more reliable information than your own.

Thanks.

[edit on 14-8-2009 by audas]

Originally posted by breakingdradles


Were you going to yell at him? lol

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e47ab2990ac5.png[/atsimg]


Nah here I am with my mate.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5308f15ae133.jpg[/atsimg]

[edit on 14-8-2009 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by audas
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Slayer if you are attempting to provide us with US domestic resources then lets see that ? Again what you have shown us is simply a compilation of what the US produces and imports ???? It is MEANINGLESS TO THIS DISCUSSION -

Further your entire input here has been meaningless to the discussion - seriously get on track.

Further you have questioned my links - they contain significantly more reliable information than your own.

Thanks.

[edit on 14-8-2009 by audas]

Calm down you

Meaningless?

Whos the one quoting china's cornering the market of minerals when we started to discuss oil?

Originally posted by audas
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Slayer if you are attempting to provide us with US domestic resources then lets see that ?

Energy information US Government

Domestic Crude Oil Production

reply to post by audas

I've been to China prior to westernisation and studied the language and culture for 20 years - India can say what it wants - it is light years behind China - it recently conducted its first space walk - something only America has achieved and sent its first man into space in 1968 - Indias first manned mission to space is planned for 2017 - in fact their first lunar mission failed as the sensors were radiated (pretty basic stuff).

There are often comparisons between these two nations and that is just guff of the highest order - China is literally half a century ahead of India - they would not stand a chance.

China, Russia and US have conducted spacewalks

India plans to put an astranuat in space by 2012, the 4 th country to do so, the manned lunar mission is in 2017

India's lunar mission did not fail, the spacecraft is still orbiting the moon, the height of orbit has been raised from 100 km to 200 km because one of the sensors malfunctioned due to radiation, a common problem for most moon missions. 95% of the work alloted to the Indian moon mission was done before the sensor malfunctioned.

India started it's space program in early 70s and China in late 60s

India conducted it's first nuclear test in 1974 and China is mid sixties

So maybe India is 10 years behind China but with enough nukes and missiles that can reach Beijing and Shanghai (Agni) it really does not matter

reply to post by SLAYER69


Oh, I understand that both countries have oil and produce it. I was just speculating that perhaps China moved to a more import heavy model was because it gives them the chance to "play with the big dogs", like the US, on the Global Scheme.

Remember all of the Prudo bay stuff?

That sort of thing.
Thanks for the nice chart, though.
Also, at least in the case in the US, isn't that "production" figure counting refining of imported oil? And not necessarily oil pulled from the ground?

All that is really aside, though. Their economic model in general is the best around. Easily.

reply to post by JayinAR


Thanks for the reply.

I also provided some links above in follow along replies. Yes it's talking about whats coming out of the ground. People are misinformed about the fact that we do produce over a third of our own fuel. The percentage of domestic production vs imports has falling drastically as our consumption rose.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Oh, I see. I'll take it at that. The title on the chart left me curious.

In any event, even though we may produce 1/3 of our own, we COULD produce a crap-ton more. In fact, we could produce enough to compete with the Saudis, but we don't.

Just like anyone who has a bunch of ANYTHING they are sitting on they hold it so they can manipulate the markets. This is the way I see it.
And I wouldn't be surprised if China does the same.

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Oh, I see. I'll take it at that. The title on the chart left me curious.

In any event, even though we may produce 1/3 of our own, we COULD produce a crap-ton more. In fact, we could produce enough to compete with the Saudis, but we don't.

Source

Federal limitations on domestic oil production have contributed to a steady decline in US production since 1985. By 1994, the United States was importing more than its total domestic production. Restricting supply raises prices and unnecessarily contributes to US reliance on foreign oil imports.

I think there is some confusion with the terms....

Production

In petroleum industry parlance, production refers to the quantity of crude extracted from reserves, not the literal creation of the product.

and

Refining

An oil refinery is an industrial process plant where crude oil is processed and refined into more useful petroleum products, such as gasoline, diesel fuel, asphalt base, heating oil, kerosene, and liquefied petroleum gas.[1][2] Oil refineries are typically large sprawling industrial complexes with extensive piping running throughout, carrying streams of fluids between large chemical processing units.

[edit on 14-8-2009 by SLAYER69]

The transformation of China from backward third world nation to an economic superpower is a tad more complicated than the simplistic "they will overtake the US because if you multiply their GDP by current percent economic growth you get xyz in abc years". At the moment, China is a poor nation. Travel outside the bright lights of Shanghai and you get into third world poverty. Don't be fooled by what the (controlled) Chinese press allows you to see... Go on, I dare anyone here who thinks that China is rich to take a trip over there and have a gander.

For China to truely modernise it must tackle huge domestic issues - e.g. infrastructure, health, migration of labour, poverty, human rights, pollution, transport, education - you name it.

China will - in time - become richer because the of the number of Chinese. The per capita equation is key. However, as the average Chinese civilian is very poor they have a very, very long way to go. With increased riches comes increased expectations, so I do wonder whether China (or rather the one-party totalitarian dictatorship) will survive the test of time. Is it China which may fragment? Now there's a thought!

Now, on to the topic in hand.

A war between China and India would be tragic for both nations and the world. A complication for China would be the fact that the democratic West would doubtlessly side with democratic India and although they may not provide direct aid, you can be sure covert aid would be plentiful.

Because of the size and geography of the two nations I very much doubt conquest would be achievable. Whoever is the agressor would end up being halted. The defender would be able to trade unacceptable losses on the aggressor - the terrain and depth of the battlefield would allow this.

Don't forget both nations have nukes.

I would rate the Indian military more highly that the Chinese. I have no evidence to support my belief that the Indian military would be more flexible and able, other than the fact that my father rated them highly when he worked with them in the 1980s.

Regards

reply to post by SLAYER69


No, I understand the terms.

What I'm saying is that we have the ability to pull a bunch MORE oil out of the ground. But that we don't.

We import from other places so that those contracts + the threat of war keep them trading on our dollar - hopefully.
Then other countries like Japan, who doesn't produce a lick of oil, have to borrow USD to trade oil with the Saudis, or whomever they get it from, and pay back the USD + interest.

We import more than we need in order to create an economic hegemony. I'm sure China is ramping up imports also for the same reason. And they are beating us as of right now as they are picking up contracts to import all over the place.

reply to post by paraphi



Thanks - as I said I HAVE BEEN THERE and was there PRIOR to western capitilisation - sooooo your wrong - first hand knowledge buddy. I speak the language and went to some incredibly remote areas. Your post WREAKS of ignorance - dripping with it. To call China 3rd world, to even mention it is a clear display of a lack of understanding of the country and the term.

Secondly - the facts I have put forward on this thread regarding the Chinese usurpation of the US in terms of wealth and power are not some airy fairy notion i conjured up - they are coming from academia and institutions such as the IMF and World Bank - it is forecast conservativly at 2020 but all indicators and projections put it at 2017. Here is one at 2015

www.boston.com...

World currency and second largest economy on earth -
business.timesonline.co.uk...

By 2020 as i said, China will have a middle class which is equivalent to well over two united states of america with FULL capacity - yes 700million middle class consumers - well over twice that of the US - so again - your talking garbage

www.euromonitor.com...

and RIGHT NOW there are significantly MORE middle class chinese that there are middle class US -

www.mpdailyfix.com...

the idea that yes there are also a lot of lower class chinese does not dimish the fact that china is only one step from usurping the US .

Suggesting that China needs to face the test of time, coming from an AMERICAN with less than 30 years as a super power compared to 5000 years with China - is the most staggeringly ignorant comment I have read - what is so profoundly disingenuous is the fact you attempt to convey this mythical claptrap with such authority - you simply have no idea.

again

www.entrepreneur.com...

and again

www.mckinseyquarterly.com...

etc......

When you consider that the US maintains a HUGE income disparity - with masses of people profoundly impoverished, with no REAL wage increase in decades beyond insignificant dribbles, a country where the middle class has been decimated and the impoverished skyrocketing - well - what can one say but GET SOME PERSPECTIVE.

The minimum wage in the US is a global joke, and considering that is what the vast majority of Americans take home - again - what a laugh. The problem occurs in America PRECISELY when you start making average per capita incomes - your country is so thoroughly out of whack - the elite earn billions while that vast majority are being forced into abject poverty - so the average looks fantastic - but in reality the people are impoverished.

The reality is that in sheer numbers - China is already well ahead of the US in almost every department -

Really I should have just looked at your last paragraph - India ahead of China militarily - your having a laugh - no idea what so ever - sorry but that is just hilarious. I don't mind people posting things with the proviso that it is just a guess - which your entire post is - but when you attempt to rebut others, or present your opinion as INFORMED or somehow factual it is simply intolerable - your opinion verges on lunacy - sorry for being so thoroughly dismissive however you are so far wide of reality that it simply has to be addressed.

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

No, I understand the terms.

What I'm saying is that we have the ability to pull a bunch MORE oil out of the ground. But that we don't.

We import from other places so that those contracts + the threat of war keep them trading on our dollar - hopefully.
Then other countries like Japan, who doesn't produce a lick of oil, have to borrow USD to trade oil with the Saudis, or whomever they get it from, and pay back the USD + interest.

We import more than we need in order to create an economic hegemony. I'm sure China is ramping up imports also for the same reason. And they are beating us as of right now as they are picking up contracts to import all over the place.

No you don't - and Slayer is simply wrong and will not admit it. The US sits about tenth in resources - as in "in the ground" - although you do have quite large reserves - as in "stockpiled in barrels" .

On almost EVERY estimate available the US sits right next to China in actual resources - somewhere around tenth and eleventh - have already provided links to this.

So again - Slayers graph is merely pointing out how heavily the US relies on imports for its oil - it is in NO WAY an indicator of resources.


[edit on 14-8-2009 by audas]

reply to post by audas


Yes, Slayer's graph is pointing out what the US produces itself vs. what it takes from others.

We produce about 1/3 of our oil needs locally.

We DO rely heavily on imports and I have explained why.

Originally posted by sunny_2008ny
reply to post by audas

 

I've been to China prior to westernisation and studied the language and culture for 20 years - India can say what it wants - it is light years behind China - it recently conducted its first space walk - something only America has achieved and sent its first man into space in 1968 - Indias first manned mission to space is planned for 2017 - in fact their first lunar mission failed as the sensors were radiated (pretty basic stuff).

There are often comparisons between these two nations and that is just guff of the highest order - China is literally half a century ahead of India - they would not stand a chance.

China, Russia and US have conducted spacewalks

India plans to put an astranuat in space by 2012, the 4 th country to do so, the manned lunar mission is in 2017

India's lunar mission did not fail, the spacecraft is still orbiting the moon, the height of orbit has been raised from 100 km to 200 km because one of the sensors malfunctioned due to radiation, a common problem for most moon missions. 95% of the work alloted to the Indian moon mission was done before the sensor malfunctioned.

India started it's space program in early 70s and China in late 60s

India conducted it's first nuclear test in 1974 and China is mid sixties

So maybe India is 10 years behind China but with enough nukes and missiles that can reach Beijing and Shanghai (Agni) it really does not matter

Again - we have more erroneous information - please get your facts straight and do SOME research - google is but a click away - INFORM YOURSELF BEFORE YOU POST AND MAKE AN IDIOT OF YOURSELF IN PUBLIC - please, this is for your own good.

2017 is Indias first projected manned mission - ok.

www.thaindian.com...

and here

www.thaindian.com...

and here

sify.com...

and everywhere you look - so please stop MAKING STUFF UP - you simply have no idea.

To continue - the chinese founded their space agency in 1949 - they were working WITH THE RUSSIANS WHO HOLD ALMOST EVERY RECORD FOR SPACE THERE IS EXCEPT THE MOON - got that - the Russians were first to do EVERYTHING and since they were working with the CHinese - they were simply there by default -

I have no idea what to say to such ill informed posts - its just frustrating the level of ignorance around here - truly ridiculous.

The time span between the manned Chinese mission and the Indian is almost 40 years - 40 years difference in manned space missions - almost half a century of tech between the nations.

The first chinese manned mission to space is still shrouded in secrecy - it was between 1978 and 1982 - the first attempts failed and people died - the first missions to be acknowledged were in 1992.


Why do you post stuff you have no idea about ? Why not at least try and do SOME research ?

The American view of China is mind boggling - they are already the second most, if not THE MOST powerful nation on earth. There is nothing the US could do to China, however the reverse can not be said.......in fact right now we are witnessing the saving of the global financial system not by the US which has collapsed, but China - China is the one rescuing the world not simply from financial failure - but from the impact of America collapsing - take your blinkers off man - reality has just done a smack down on your entire nation - wake the FCK up - yet despite this blinding reality check you wish to put India remotely on par with the what is amounting to the worlds ONLY SUPER POWER outside the US (which is about to rescind that title-

Amazing.

reply to post by audas


Look, I understand that because you have been to China you are keen on Chinese culture. Whatever.
Yes, China is the new badass on the block.
No doubt.
Realize though that this reality comes on the back of what amounts to 18th century slavery here in the States.

We have moved beyond that into a world of pure military dominance.
And yes, eventually it will come to pass that the US and the Chinese butt heads, realize that the US will make sure that happens before China has any REAL advantage.
As in, being able to deploy troops.

We have the world's most powerful hegemony. Not that I'm saying that is a good thing, I'm just sayin'.

And your arrogance is pretty impressive.


I mean, it is pretty easy to call yourself a badass when you exploit children and you carry a population of 1billion+. I called this one years ago.

Glad you are so proud of it.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by breakingdradles


Were you going to yell at him? lol

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e47ab2990ac5.png[/atsimg]


Nah here I am with my mate.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5308f15ae133.jpg[/atsimg]

[edit on 14-8-2009 by SLAYER69]

Oh, I thought I had read on here you were gay.

Sorry, my bad.

I stand corrected

[edit on 14-8-2009 by breakingdradles]

Slayer:
Your 'mate' is pretty hot. Is she, by chance, into younger and hotter guys?

Why the talk about the 'mates' anyhow? That is like someone calling you 'dude' in a conversation and you saying "Damnit, I'm NOT A CATTLE RANCHER."

Debate on the points!