84-year old Woman Smashed Into the Ground By Cops

I agree that the take-down was totally excessive. The situation clearly called for a tazer.

reply to post by msnevil


HAHAHA! What are you talking about? No, residents with Alzheimer's were not familiar with me. They never recognized me. Maybe their own children from time to time bunt not the staff. My point was i don't think they took enough time to assess the situation. Yea they told here to put down the knife and she didn't. But would you if some strange people with guns started barking order at you when you are threatening to kill people in a parking lot with you favorite dinner utensil? Didn't think so...

P.S. I guess it would be pretty cool to judo some old lady's with no repercussions.

reply to post by Dramey


Yea... I posted earlier just to say someone(even someone with Alzhimer's) can usually be talked down, but i got a reply saying i should "start a CNA task force to disarm hostile elderly ladies." WTF is wrong with you people? I've been reading post on here for awhile now but just joined to add in my 2 cents on this topic. Doesn't matter. Cops are always justified in what they do...or at least that's what their department tells me.

reply to post by LoneGunMan


And i got 30 years of Martial Arts training, and I saw the video, the police officer was trying to get the knife off the woman's hand.

All these people claiming "set up a perimeter and talk her down" don't know how easily this could get worse and worse, the woman was not puting down the knife, and as the other black woman said she was brandishing the knife at people, she wasn't trying to defend herself, she was threatening people with the knife, and a police officer has to stop the situation before it got worse.

If the police officer had tasered the woman she probably would haved died, so at least the police officer didn't do that, neither did she use pepper spray on the old woman, which could have also been worse.

If you were there you would probably would have gotten yourself cut by the old lady or worse, killed.

Now, don't start claiming that you are some sort of superhero and you could have gotten the knife without some sort of altercation with the old lady, because you should know that people with Alzheimer can become very violent very quickly.

My aunt had to be hospitalized, and she lost all her teeth because my uncle, a 78 year old man with Alzheimers wanted to get the keys to his truck, and leave. He had lost his mind, and forgot he didn't have a license anymore. He became violent, which normally he would have never done so.

My aunt is 52 years old, and she got her butt kicked, btw my aunt used to be a Martial Arts competitor in Cuba as well as being a doctor.

She didn't think my uncle would become violent because he had never hit her before, or been that violent when he didn't have Alzheimers.

The punch knocked off some teeth from her jaw, but she developed an infection and all of her teeth had to be removed as well as she had to spend the night at the hospital.

That's how unpredictable, and violent a person with Alzheimers can become.



[edit on 14-8-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by eNumbra


Of course you are correct.

BUT...there once was a time, not too long ago, not in a galaxy far, far away either..that cops could handle situations where extremely elderly and confused people, with ease, without resorting to...i can't find the words to describe what they did to this woman...i really can't (and i prattle on for ages as a rule!), anyway, the police USED to rely on training to calm and diffuse situations such as these.

Of course these things happen...old people, very old people suffering with degenerative mental disease get confused, and aggressive sometimes. It's the nature of the disease.

Bully boy, overly aggressive tactics may get the 'job' done...but it's not policing...if it were, and the cop who did this was properly trained and a reasonably nice human being (which they should be), there are talking down methods, there are myriad ways to take the knife without personal danger, and so on.

The US is really looking a LOT like late 1930's Germany...the question is, do the majority of the US citizenry (who are good, honest, ordinary people, who want the best for their families and their country) sit back and watch it all unfold like some reality TV show? And then silently shake their heads when the regime is in it's full ugliness and almost unstoppable?

Only the US citizens can decide i guess.

If you think this sort of behaviour is OK, then you are on the road to being irrevocably conditioned, and your mind has been 'washed' over time.

The problem is, along with your mind, they are getting a bonus...your humanity.

Originally posted by spikey
................
If you think this sort of behaviour is OK, then you are on the road to being irrevocably conditioned, and your mind has been 'washed' over time.

The problem is, along with your mind, they are getting a bonus...your humanity.

Spare us your selfrighteousness... and then there are Europeans who claim Americans are too full of themselves...

My humanity is very fine thank you....

I never said it is ok to slam this woman to the floor hard, but the officer had to take the knife from the old woman, and the twisting motion of trying to wrestle the knife from her hand made the woman fall down.

When you are doing such a move, trying not to hurt yourself and trying to get a knife off a person who for the moment, and for all intent and purpose is crazy, you do the move as fast as possible.

That is imo what happened. The police officer is a human being just as much as anyone else, and she is probably mulling over in her head right now if there was some other way she could have done it.

But in the heat of the situation, nothing goes perfect.



[edit on 14-8-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

A trained police officer should of been able to disarm the lady without hurting her no matter what her age or condition was. It really isn't that hard for 2 people to seize a single knife, unless it is being held by a professional knife fighter. I would assume she wasn't a professional knife fighter.

A good point has come up in the last 5 pages of the discusion. The question is; why didn't anyone else help the woman? It is my opinion that people do not help for two reasons. The reasons are:

1. People are afraid of law suits.
2. Everyone also believes that the police will find some crime to charge them with.

Basically, on every front you look, civil and criminal people believe that if they are a 'Good Samaritan' they will be in trouble. It is true many states now have 'Good Samaritan' laws but they are mainly there to protect people with medical training. Doctors, R.N.'s, EMT's are excused from any liability when they help someone outside of their duty. The same is not true for individuals or the general public: they are liable. People are afraid to help on a civil level.

The criminal side of the house scares the public as well. The public is of the opinion if they help they could be:

1. Charged with interfering.
2. Cops will associate them with a crime/crimes the person they innocently help may be guilty of or involved in doing.
3. The public is also afraid of angering the cops so that they become walking targets for the police.
4. Generally accused of anything. For example, the person helped had 500.00 dollars cash and now doesn't. If an EMT or another cop took it the person who is the civilian becomes an attractive fall guy.

People are afraid of being accused of something criminal. People are afraid of being liable civily. Therefore, it is my opinion people don't help for the above mentioned reasons. Cops rarely think of this because they act with impunity on/off duty.

Another good point someone brings up is that she may have been deaf. Has anyone found out for sure? Anyways, obviously the verbal commands were useless for some reason. The deaf/hard of hearing thought should have crossed over that officers mind. Women in their senior years are infamous for losing their hearing.

Most of you know I am not a cop lover, especially when they pull these antics. However, I got pulled over by the Orange, CA police. They are well known and dreaded by everyone (If you do not believe that read Orange v Brown in the Supreme Court filings. This case gives cops the right to search your car without consent.). I stopped immediately and he told me to make a right on the next residential street. I did, stopped, put the car in park and started rolling down the windows. The officer told me I had a tail light out (I didn't know that.). He was professional, courteous, joking and pleasant to talk to about cars. It could have been a knock down drag out fight if he was a jerk. I am relating this story because it is my opinion if someone like the officer who pulled me over had been there the poor old woman would not have been hurt. Mentally functioning or not the responding officer showed no respect towards this woman. When I think of this woman's age I realize she probably had a young boyfriend go fight in WW2, saw rationed goods, Korea, Vietnam, the sexual revolution, Bernie Goetz and the list goes on she must have been pretty tough going through tough times and she deserves our respect. In the flash of a forgetful Alzheimer's state she was disrespected.

Another question that comes up from who I am guessing are LEO's on this board is 'What would you have done?'. I have been in a showdown with death twice in my life. One time, I was dead for a couple of minutes. Between a cursed family, combat and later in life health issues from bad genetics I have been around enough death. Personally, my answer to your question is this: I would have approached the lady after holstering my weapon. I would have identified myself. I would of tried to ascertain if she could hear. If she could hear I would talk to her and then ask for the knife. If she didn't give it to me I would repeat the process. I would look during this time for an opportunity to grab the knife. If she became violent and I had to act I would get the knife from her at all costs while protecting her from injury. If that meant getting in harms way, getting cut or hurt so be it. That is better than me hurting an 84 year old lady who was alone, bewildered, forgetful and very scared.

On another note, people who say we should not judge the cops and we should especially not judge the cops if we haven't been a LEO or walked 'in their shoes' have a very poor argument and are hypocrites. Let me make it crystal clear; the police work FOR us. We The People ARE your employers and we have the right to know how, what, when and where you are doing the jobs we created. As with any employer/employee relationship we have the ability, the right, to comment or criticize any and all things you do in our name. Secondly, isn't part of being a LEO making judgement calls most especially about people? Is it necessary for a cop to become a drug dealer before he can make a judgement call? Obviously not, however that is exactly what you are asking everyone else to do when we The People question you. It is hypocritical in that you are making judgement calls everyday but when you are questioned you say we can not do the same unless we do the job. Following that logic a guy who robbed a few 7-11's could say you can't judge me because you have never robbed a 7-11. We do not need to be LE to make a judgement call about LE.

Enough said by me. Any comments except angry, rude haters are welcome. As stated previously these views are only my opinion however please consider them.

bet you if that mad ould bird had stabbed a kid you lot would be screamin blue murder at the cops

Well, I doubt whether the police were qualified to determine that this woman had Alzheimer's. Even doctors have a very difficult time making that diagnosis, despite exhaustive examinations. She certainly appeared elderly and frail, and also confused. Surely the police knew she wasn't right, that this woman was either suffering from a mental illness, or perhaps was intoxicated.

Unfortunately, even a person who is mentally ill can become dangerous if she has a knife. So can an intoxicated person. Just because she has Alzheimer's, doesn't mean she was harmless. She might have lashed out with the knife, or turned it against herself. Bulletproof vests are not resistant to knife attacks, contrary to what some people think.

I think the woman's family needs to also share some responsibility for this. AFAIK, people can get into trouble for leaving small children in the car, even for a short run to the store. The children really aren't able to protect themselves adequately, nor do they know enough to refrain from dangerous activities like, for example, wandering off. A person with alzheimer's would have a similar need for closer supervision. You can't just leave an Alzheimer's victim in the car and hope she doesn't get into trouble. Unlike small children, such people are big enough to carry out many things kids can't do; and they often have some memory of actions they used to do when younger. Some, for example, may have no idea where they live, but are able to drive competently. Or to grab a steak knife and wander around with it worrying people. And where did she get the steak knife? Was it in the car with her?

Maybe the cops were a little hard on this woman. But I'm thinking their focus was to disarm her before anyone got killed or hurt. She may have gone down much faster than they expected, being so elderly. Or the cop may have been so focused on disarming her that she didn't take steps to protect the woman's head. I can see lots of places where they might have done things differently, but I can't fault them for erring on the side of caution.

Not too long ago, a Chicago policeman was called to help remove a mentally disturbed woman from a bus where she was threatening and disturbing people. The cop, figuring the woman was just a harmless mental patient, tried to reason with her and guide her off the bus. The woman became severely agitated and grabbed the officer's service weapon, and shot him with it, killing him. That sort of thing doesn't happen very often, but it does happen. Cops die from making mistakes like that.

In a perfect world, these cops would have disarmed this woman without banging her head on the pavement. But in a perfect world, there would be no need to disarm anyone in the first place. In the real world, mistakes are inevitable, and sometimes they will cause harm to citizens. Does that make these cops guilty of brutality? In my opinion, no.

That is a very nice piece Chiron. I applaud your calm, informing and generally open way you express your opinions. I do see your viewpoints but it is late so I will discourse with you later. Very well written! Are you LE, if you don't mind answering?

Originally posted by blueorder
bet you if that mad ould bird had stabbed a kid you lot would be screamin blue murder at the cops

Yes, there could be a thousand different ways this could of played out. If you are suggesting the same people would complain because the cop didn't act fast enough to prevent that then I believe you are wrong. I think people would take everything into account and judge from there. It is unfortunate however police can often only be reactionary to crime. They don't have a crystal ball either.

Originally posted by billybobh3
All of you people are far too soft.

She was a problem, the situation was handled. YOU do a better job in the same circumstance with adrenaline coursing through your system.

EVERYONE is a critic, yet NOT ONE of the critics have been have faced with a similar circumstance.

Just wait until the SHTF, you will ALL be singing a different tune. I've been there, and don't give me your song-and-dance about how you 'would do things differently'; you'll eventually live-or-die by your instincts. MY instincts have kept me alive thus far, and will do so far beyond your weak minded states.

That is exactly the type of mentality that should never be a police officer. Unfortunately, too many police harbor this mentality. As a person who has "been there" myself, I would say the real reason a person would speak with such lack of compassion is that they are scared of crises, and are not armed with enough understanding, nor self control, to do things the right way. By which I mean; knowing when to use ones intellect, vs. ones instincts to resolve a situation properly. This situation did not require instincts, merely a drop of reasoning. The cops in this video are both physically and mentally weak, and a disgrace to the uniform. There is no way to justify this brutality, none; zero, zip, zilch, nada, null.

[edit on 8/14/2009 by defenestrator]

Originally posted by defenestrator

Originally posted by billybobh3
All of you people are far too soft.

She was a problem, the situation was handled. YOU do a better job in the same circumstance with adrenaline coursing through your system.

EVERYONE is a critic, yet NOT ONE of the critics have been have faced with a similar circumstance.

Just wait until the SHTF, you will ALL be singing a different tune. I've been there, and don't give me your song-and-dance about how you 'would do things differently'; you'll eventually live-or-die by your instincts. MY instincts have kept me alive thus far, and will do so far beyond your weak minded states.

Yours is exactly the type of mentality that should never be a police officer. Unfortunately, too many police harbor this mentality. As a person who has "been there" myself, I would say the real reason you speak with such lack of compassion is that you are scared of crises, and are not armed with enough understanding, nor self control, to do things the right way. By which I mean; knowing when to use your intellect, vs. your instincts to resolve a situation properly. This situation did not require instincts, merely a drop of reasoning. The cops in this video are weak both physically and mentally weak, and a disgrace to the uniform. There is no way to justify this brutality, none; zero, zip, zilch, nada, null.

until I see a video of you disarming a knife wielding granny, this is all just bluster

Originally posted by chiron613
Unfortunately, even a person who is mentally ill can become dangerous if she has a knife. So can an intoxicated person. Just because she has Alzheimer's, doesn't mean she was harmless. She might have lashed out with the knife, or turned it against herself. Bulletproof vests are not resistant to knife attacks, contrary to what some people think.
...

Does that make these cops guilty of brutality? In my opinion, no.

I understand you are correct, regarding your initial statement, in theory, but each situation must be evaluated independently of theory. The other half is called "practice," something these law enforcement officials clearly haven't done much of. The reality was, this woman would never be a threat to a trained person.
It's not easy to stab someone with a steak knife, not even yourself, not even when you're healthy. Store bought steak knives aren't made for stabbing people. A trained, or very determined person could certainly kill with one, but this lady was neither. Flak jackets, "bulletproof vests" and the like would almost certainly stop this particular weapon wielded by this particular perp'. I would take care of this situation in my bathrobe and slippers, and I can barely walk because of an injury. Any further attempt to justify this by the devil's advocate brigade is the fail.
I most definitely do not agree.



[edit on 8/14/2009 by defenestrator]

Originally posted by defenestrator The reality was, this woman would never be a threat to a trained person.

there is no such "reality", people can stab themselves in the most unorthodox and unthought of ways, by accident, never mind stabbing someone else

reply to post by blueorder


I appreciate your comment, and understand your point, but I don't wish to play semantic games.
This person was not a criminal threat, but a minor public disturbance. Watch the video again.

reply to post by eNumbra


So, obey..then?

If not, we will hurt you? Kill you? Is this what policing is about?

You are ignoring the VAST majority of comments here, that what that police woman did was not only unnecessary, it was out and out blatant aggression focussed on a senile octogenarian woman, who was patently confused.

The police woman lost it, as she wasn't being obeyed.
You think this gives the police carte blanch to do as they please? Wrong, it doesn't.

As has been pointed out, there are myriad techniques in which the police are trained for situations exactly such as these, yet she decided to ignore these and perform a Judo throw on the senile old lady, in doing so, smash her head in!

reply to post by blueorder


And your post wasn't bluster?

I've disarmed more frightening foes than this, that's just funny, blueorder, really gave me a good chuckle. Good luck with your weird life. I'll just lurk on this board some more, it's pointless to comment, too many trolls.

I watched this video last night and to be honest I can see BOTH sides , but in MY HUMBLE OPINION, the cop was in the wrong.

Yes the old dear probably had a knife ( I couldn't see it in the grainy video myself) but even if she did, its no excuse for the female cop to go in heavy handed as soon as she did, even the most confused elderly will relinquish a knife if told to by someone who's patient enough to keep asking, the cop said " drop the knife" ONCE, then grabbed and slammed.

IMO thats not enough, she should have asked a few more times before manhandling the elder. But to slam her into the ground with that much force, didn't this obviously STUPID cop realise that old bones break easier, and at 84 ( hell even over 60) bones are very weak, the cops lucky she's not facing a murder charge right now, I'd settle for aggrevated assault , supposing the elder had broken her hips or even her skull, its bad enough to see blood coming from her head , supposing theres now underlying damage.

Cops should totally assess the situation with an elder before grab n slam.

Totally bad form on the cop on this one.