US right-wing groups keen to demonise NHS

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by mr-lizard
the NHS might not be perfect, but it is responsible for saving thousands and thousands of lives.

The figures I've been seeing on TV say just the opposite.
It's responsible for the deaths of thousands due to the waits that don't happen now.

In my finest anglo-saxon, that's bollocks mate. Absolute bollocks. If you seriously believe that the NHS is responsible for the deaths of thousands, then you need to stop believing everything you're told. The NHS is a proud British institution that has saved countless lives. That is objective fact.

reply to post by CRB86


Agreed, as i say this guy has been known for trolling in the past.

I've seen him/her reduce threads to mindless drivel with a bombardment of thoughtless bollocks as you say.

The NHS is very much responsible for saving hundreds of thousands of lives and that is a fact.

Here a very relevant article:

Here is the true voice of socialism: "Britain's National Health Service is one of the great achievements of the 20th century."

Oops ... fooled you. It's not really the voice of a socialist but the words of the leader of Britain's Conservative party, David Cameron.

Here are some more of this true blue conservative's words on the subject: "Under a Conservative government, the NHS will remain free at the point of need and available to everyone, regardless of how much money they have in the bank."

Americans, overheated by a severe case of August Health Care Fever, should meditate on those words.

www.globalpost.com...

Emphasis mine because at the end of the day those are the only words that really matter.

[edit on 13 Aug 2009 by schrodingers dog]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Also .. how can someone say that he wouldn't be alive if it weren't for NHS? What exactly is that based on? I'd love to see the arguement for that one.

Presto........
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Silly little facts and statistics tossed about regarding the longer life expectancy and
higher patient satisfaction data showing superiority of NHS.

Great britain is the worst in terms of being a police state in the world. Does no one have a problem with all the surveillance and gov't control there?

I wouldn't mind living in canada or sweden though, and they have national health care. It's just got to be done right. Somehow provisions have got to limit government intrusion.

This is just a opportunity for another "red" vs. "blue" to get people divided and bickering. I dont have health care not because i cant afford it but because i try not to waste my money. As for demonizing the uk system i dont know. Ive heard storys from both sides saying how great/not great it is. I just dont want to pay for something im not going to use.

P.S. Be sure to send any dis-info about the wonderful nhs to the white house website. Otherwise we wont get to truth from the gov't.

reply to post by john124


It's not rocket science.

But it's not quite simple, either.

I live in the UK. When I was in America it felt rather desolate to me and part of the reason is I know that in the UK I don't have to be dying before I'm treated for free. If I'd had an accident in the US I'd have been covered by the ship's insurance (I was working on cruise ships out of various US ports) but that underlying sense of don't-give-a-flyer always seemed to be there.

I've seen people arguing that they don't want to pay for someone else's broken arm: but what this amounts to is saying, fine, take my money and wee it up the wall on armaments and invading other countries, but just don't use it to help other people.

What kind of value is that to hold?

Of course the US media are giving a distorted picture of the NHS. A close freind is now in his third year of remission from leukaemia. He's 40. He was treated by the NHS who did an absolutely fantastic job.

Of course there are problems, but overall it's very much a Good Thing rather than a Bad Thing. And it's under threat. Privatisation mania has meant that it's now, for example, really expensive to park in a hosptial car park. But this is actually all due to the rot started by Thatcher, and goes against the original ethos, which is an incredibly radical and enlightened view: treatment should be free to all who need it.

Now Obama's health care plan, on the other hand, is going to be like any piece of legislation that goes through the US legislature: it's going to be full of pork, and it will tend towards centralising control.

I have seen things posted on here that would bear out the above assessment, and consequently I think the Bill should be radically reworked and Big Pharma soundly kicked. I understand from another ATS thread that the new national authority will not be able to use its buying power to negotiate prices with Big Pharma.

Corporate welfare, anyone?

When the NHS was set up, it was against considerable opposition from the august bodies of the medical profession. However, Big Pharma wasn't anything like as big and powerful as it is now.

Setting up a sensible health care system in the US would require, shall we say, strong leadership.

But if Cuba can care for its own citizens, and it's a very poor country that US sanctions have done a good job of messing up, then why can't the richest country in the world?

However...

[edit on 14-8-2009 by rich23]

MP Daniel Hannan asks Chris Dodd to seek care in the UK under their socialist system for prostate cancer.

hahahah

In the UK, 5 year prostate cancer survival rates are 77%, while in the US the survival rates are 100%

Originally posted by MaybeThisTimeAround
I just dont want to pay for something im not going to use.

So how about all those nuclear weapons then? It amazes me how people get so het up about so little money, relatively speaking, when the military-industrial complex and the bankers just take it out of your government by the wheelbarrowload.

And unlike those institutions, a decent health care plan (see previous post for caveat, I don't mean Obama's legislation) actually helps people.

Originally posted by CapsFan8
Great britain is the worst in terms of being a police state in the world.

Yup, Kim Jong Il comes here when he wants to see how to treat people.[/sarcasm]

That statement is pretty dumb hyperbole. Yes, there are cameras around, but actually the tide might be turning against them. We live in hope. But I don't have to follow any religion, I don't have to be conscripted, there are no death squads prowling the streets... there are worse places in the world.

I wouldn't mind living in canada or sweden though, and they have national health care. It's just got to be done right. Somehow provisions have got to limit government intrusion.

Canada's system seems pretty close to the UK's. But it's sad seeing someone just parrot something they've heard on Fox, "provisions have got to limit government intrusion", indeed.

The two reasons behind this whole manufactured drama are, firstly, the US legislature can't be trusted to draft a bill without excessive pork and megalomaniacal government control, and second, because the profiteers behind the system as it currently exists in the US don't want that system changed.

And people line up to parrot the nonsense about freedom and how "Orwellian" the UK NHS is. Someone on another thread put it really well:

Originally posted by moocowman
What the hell are these goons talking about, the NHS being Orwellian ?

There's nothing more Orwellian than trying to persuade a population that the Nhs would be bad for them.

Originally posted by mnemeth1
MP Daniel Hannan asks Chris Dodd to seek care in the UK under their socialist system for prostate cancer.

He's not an MP, he's an MEP. This is from the Times article sourced below:

After that speech, Mr Hannan began to appear regularly on Fox News via satellite link sometimes in front of a picture of the Houses of Parliament in Westminster, despite working in Brussels

Such is Fox's commitment to accuracy.

Daniel Hannan... I liked that speech of his that caught the buzz a few months back, but I've lost all respect for hiim. Why? This (again from the sourced article)

He said that to copy the system would lead America towards bankruptcy “where we are now. We’re just a couple of years behind Zimbabwe”.

Er... there are other things in our economy that could well be said to have brought us much closer to the brink: an illegal war we were dragged into by Dubya's little bitch Tony, and the preposterous banking bailout.

We're all a couple of years behind Zimbabwe, but that's because bankers were allowed to lend each other huge sums without any sensible checks, creating a multi-trillion-dollar bubble that the bankers have actually got the various governments to cover. Unbelievable.

I find Hannan's posturing on this dishonest and hypocritical.

And in the video, Hannan complains about the number of administrators in the NHS. Cheeky little ####.

It was his lot that started that unhealthy trend, back in the 80s.

the Tories started the mania for management consultancy that has sapped millions from the UK economy. Administrators gave themselves the best office spaces, the best car park spaces, and made everyone else's lives more difficult without delivering any concrete results. You've only to read Private Eye to get a picture of how management consultancies have been used by the UK government in all sorts of fields, with expensive and fruitless reults. Of course, there's always a flowery, jargon-encrusted justification for "actions" taken, but the bottom line is that these people are like a metastasizing cancer in the body politic.

And it was the "modernising" Tories who made it all happen.

Here's a news story about Daniel Hannan you might like...

The Conservative MEP for South East England has appeared regularly on Fox News this year criticising the NHS but yesterday, after a popular backlash by the British public, the Tory leadership moved to distance itself from Mr Hannan.

Got that?

after a popular backlash by the British public

That should tell you something about how the British feel about their "unjust", "Orwellian", "draconian" health care system. There was enough of a fuss that the Tory leadership, even in the middle of the summer recess, had to act.

David Cameron responded by saying the service was incredibly important to Britain in a post on his blog. “Just look at all the support which the NHS has received on Twitter over the last couple of days. It is a reminder - if one were needed - of how proud we in Britain are of the NHS,” he wrote.

And if you want to know what people really think about the NHS, have a look at the Twitter feed for We love the NHS.

This is not to say that Obama's plans are good. From what I've seen they're the usual dynamic duo of plenty of pork and increased central control, the same as any piece of US legislature.

But don't go dragging the NHS into the argument, because you have to be intellectually dishonest in order to do so.

In the UK, 5 year prostate cancer survival rates are 77%, while in the US the survival rates are 100%

I was rather startled to find, on checking, that this is actually true. Europe does seem to be lagging behind... but I'm wondering how complete that "100%" actually is. Does everyone get diagnosed? Are there not people who cannot afford, or are denied, treatment? Is that hundred percent a genuine hundred percent of all males with prostate cancer in the US? I don't know how you'd answer that question.

And while the NHS is not perfect by any means, it's a whole lot better than nothing (which is what a huge number of Americans have at the moment) or stressfully, life-changingly expensive (which is what most of the other Americans have got).

Originally posted by mr-lizard
reply to post by CRB86

 

Agreed, as i say this guy has been known for trolling in the past.

Actually, I think she's a woman. But she is just a Fox parrot, always has been.

I've seen him/her reduce threads to mindless drivel with a bombardment of thoughtless bollocks as you say.

Nothing changes, then.

The NHS is very much responsible for saving hundreds of thousands of lives and that is a fact.

Absolutely. Let's not get into denial about the mistakes, though, and the fact that it is top-heavy with administrators. I'd sack 90% of them and plough the money into more nurses and doctors.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
this guy has been known for trolling in the past.

Posting facts that you don't like isn't 'trolling'. It's posting facts.
Name calling and off topic posts are trolling.
You really should look up the word. You have no clue what it means.

Oh .. and I'm a girl... not a 'guy'.

I've seen him/her reduce threads to mindless drivel with a bombardment of thoughtless bollocks as you say.

Again ... posting facts that dispute your statements is not 'reducing threads to mindless drivel'. Having the conversation go in an educated direction that you don't want it to go isn't reducing it to 'mindless drivel'.

Try to stay on the topic and not break T&C rules by just mindlessly bashing those who happen to disagree with your stand on an issue.

The NHS is very much responsible for saving hundreds of thousands of lives and that is a fact.

There are some facts that say otherwise ... case in point ...

reply to post by mnemeth1


Obviously this is not an open and shut case.

Originally posted by rich23
But she is just a Fox parrot, always has been.

Ah yes .. the sign of desperation ... a poster who posts facts that don't fall in line with your agenda so you whip out the name calling and the Fox News 'insult'. Pretty pathetic. And definately not in line with the T&C of this site. Desperate. Desperate. Desperate.



[edit on 8/14/2009 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by rich23
But she is just a Fox parrot, always has been.

Ah yes .. the sign of desperation ... a poster who posts facts that don't fall in line with your agenda

You keep banging on facts, but as always they're incorrect. For example, you were quite happy to say all sorts of unfounded stuff about Steven Hawking and his NHS treatment that turn out to be incorrect.

Look at the twitter feed I posted earlier - lots of happy satisfied customers in the NHS. We know it's not perfect, but we don't like the nonsense and distortions that your rabid right wingers just seem to make up.

so you whip out the name calling and the Fox News 'insult'.

It's been shown in more than one survey that Fox News watchers are often misinformed. I'd post the links, but there's no point.

Plenty of people here perceive you as a troll. You might want to think about that.

Pretty pathetic. And definately not in line with the T&C of this site. Desperate. Desperate. Desperate.

You know, I do believe that if I did my research, I could come up with plenty of examples of your trolling skills and propensity to insult. But, you know, the satisfaction I'd derive would be not compensated by having to read any more of your witless trolling. Meh.

[edit on 14-8-2009 by rich23]

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Agreed, as i say this guy has been known for trolling in the past.
I've seen him/her reduce threads to mindless drivel with a bombardment of thoughtless bollocks as you say.

If only that was all. One need only review THIS thread to see DISINFO at it's finest.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Warning, it's a long read I suggest using the >Profile>Thread Posts feature.

Thread Post View

Regards. . . KK

[edit on 14-8-2009 by kinda kurious]

Daniel Hannan is one of my Heros.

I love that guy.

That speech of power he made to the PM is one of my all time favorite videos to watch. He knows what liberty and freedom means.

Originally posted by rich23
You keep banging on facts, but as always they're incorrect.

Where, exactly, are the cancer facts that were posted in error?

For example, you were quite happy to say all sorts of unfounded stuff about Steven Hawking and his NHS treatment that turn out to be incorrect.

Where, exactly, did you post information that showed Hawking got the exact same treatment that non-celebrities got? where did you prove the thought that MANY people have on this to be incorrect?

It's been shown in more than one survey that Fox News watchers are often misinformed.

Fox News ... MSNBC ... CNN .... they ALL misinform.
The 'you watch fox news' snear is comical. All MSM misinforms.

Plenty of people here perceive you as a troll. You might want to think about that.

Only the poor slobs that can't take facts that are not in line with their agenda or their way of thinking. And only those that have no clue as to what a troll is. (Obviously that means you. )

I could come up with plenty of examples of your trolling skills and propensity to insult.

Where? No where.

Originally posted by kinda kurious
One need only review THIS thread to see DISINFO at it's finest.

Only in your little mind would a thread saying 'lets have fun and verify/debunk this document' be 'DISINFO'. Your post is a perfect example of someone who has no clue what the word 'troll' means. Go look in the mirror ... and get a grip.

Newsflash .. YOU people are getting off topic (something that I was accused of doing .. how comical). I am not the topic. The topic is this - 'us right-wing groups keen to demonise NHS'. Try to stay on topic and not to continue to break T&C any further.

Majic thread - trolling

Expressing controversial viewpoints is NOT trolling and, in general, even the most radical of opinions are welcome as long as they are expressed in accordance with the AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use.

Rather, trolling requires activity that falls outside the boundaries of topical discussion, such as ad hominem attacks, off-topic digressions, spamming, flooding, shocking images, foul language, threats, falsehoods, hoaxing, garbled/bizarre/absurd posts and other inappropriate behavior.

OY ya'll wanna stop trolling the thread and get on topic?

[edit on 8/14/2009 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Only the poor slobs that can't take facts that are not in line with their agenda or their way of thinking. And only those that have no clue as to what a troll is.

Someone should stop looking in the mirror.

Here's some On Topic data I posted from the other thread I provided a link to. Apparently a Mod "wanna-be" wants to remain here. (BTW FF, you really should report back to your Obama fake Doc thread and honor us with your Mea Culpa. It will never simply "take a vacation." You owe it to the members you mislead whether intentional or otherwise. It is the right thing to do.

ON TOPIC:

This Gallup report discusses "Satisfaction" among citizens. Seems compelling.

The Availability of Affordable Healthcare

44% of Americans are very dissatisfied with the availability of affordable healthcare, and nearly three-fourths (72%) are either somewhat or very dissatisfied. The 44% in the United States who are very dissatisfied with healthcare availability is significantly higher than corresponding figures in either Canada (17%) or Great Britain (25%).

Bottom Line

In all three countries, there is great variation of opinion within the population on both the quality of medical care and the availability of affordable healthcare. It is a testament to national health systems that people in Canada and Great Britain are significantly more satisfied with availability of affordable healthcare than their American counterparts are.

Gallup Source

Why are some people (Americans) attempting to convince the British they should be unhappy with a system they embrace? Part of the narrow-minded Anti-Obama agenda I presume.

[edit on 14-8-2009 by kinda kurious]

Originally posted by kinda kurious
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Also .. how can someone say that he wouldn't be alive if it weren't for NHS? What exactly is that based on? I'd love to see the arguement for that one.

Well the fact that the NHS kept my grandfather alive and happy for several years in a case that would have killed him earlier if his cancer remained undiscovered. This guaranteed him six or seven more years of a good life.

Or maybe the life saving treatment of my young cousin who has an eating disorder, without medical intervention she would have given up on life a long time ago. Now she is making a wonderful recovery and is doing excellent at school and is now top of the class in her biology and chemistry lessons.

Or when one of my good friends was hit by a car travelling at 40mph, if it wasn't for the freely available medical services of the NHS he'd be dead now.


I'm just speaking from experience here. What can you offer me?

The NHS has done wonders for my family alone, let alone the hundreds of thousands of other UK people who use it every year.

The nurses and doctors are amazing. As i said earlier, the Uk may not be perfect but the NHS is one of the better things here.

What can you offer me?

[edit on 14-8-2009 by mr-lizard]

Originally posted by mr-lizard

I'm just speaking from experience here. What can you offer me?

My extended family has had everything from life long psychological ailments, debilitating and degenerative genetic diseases and sudden and catastrophic injuries.

All have been well cared for. None have been rich. Blue-collar working stiffs who budgeted for health insurance.

When it comes to the gov we've all had documents lost, delays in service, accusations of wrongdoing, outright denial of service etc... from just about gov agency we've ever dealt with.

Through personal experience we've learned that gov is not to be trusted and if there is any way at all possible to get whatever it is you need done lawfully without going through gov do it and the end result is guaranteed to be better and cheaper. Go through gov and you're lucky is wasted time and stolen money is all the trouble you get. Incarceration and detainment is common just for walking into a gov building with a question.

If personal experience is all you want.