What a Atheist Wants.

reply to post by Republican08

A fundamentalist is a crazy person, but they aren't defined as crazy for religious reasons, but if the religion was abolished the fundamentalist would be cornered and gone.

No.

* Main Entry: fun·da·men·tal·ism * Pronunciation: \-tə-ˌli-zəm\ * Function: noun * Date: 1922 1 a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs 2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles ~ Merriam Webster

reply to post by Republican08


I try not to make any judgments about other people's choices. They can follow a spiritual leader if they want, even a dead one for that matter. I can make my own decisions.

But I think if we lived in a society where liberty and individuality were valued and respected, we would not so easily fall prey to those who want to influence and manipulate people.

It just seems to me like many people today are quick to want to oppress others in one way or another. Lots of people go around saying "you shouldn't be allowed to do that" when it comes to all sorts of things.

I suppose it's idealist, but I like to think people could naturally come to a reasonable conclusion about things if we didn't have such a "Respect my Authoritah!" philosophy. If we think we need a leader, we will be led, that's all I'm sayin'.

Originally posted by Lasheic
reply to post by Republican08

 

A fundamentalist is a crazy person, but they aren't defined as crazy for religious reasons, but if the religion was abolished the fundamentalist would be cornered and gone.

No.

* Main Entry: fun·da·men·tal·ism * Pronunciation: \-tə-ˌli-zəm\ * Function: noun * Date: 1922 1 a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs 2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles ~ Merriam Webster

Semantics.

Should I revise.

Someone who is willing to give a life whether a family member (slay your son, good thing god jumped back in) or themselves, to death for a deity, "I" consider to be crazy, as i'm sure if your healthy brother decided to strap a bomb on and run into a mosque screaming a mantra before blowing up would be considered crazy, or shooting a school up would be considered crazy.

Crazy, If you want to defend them, you can defend atheism semantically too!

en.wikipedia.org...

Rejection of faith in a deity.
Well the deities we have are truly false, and no others are we aware of so we reject those to, but you can say that teapot and spaghetti monster are there!

Such little rebuttal and the only word is "no"?

Please explain broader after semantics.

Originally posted by eMachine
reply to post by Republican08

 

I try not to make any judgments about other people's choices. They can follow a spiritual leader if they want, even a dead one for that matter. I can make my own decisions.

But I think if we lived in a society where liberty and individuality were valued and respected, we would not so easily fall prey to those who want to influence and manipulate people.

It just seems to me like many people today are quick to want to oppress others in one way or another. Lots of people go around saying "you shouldn't be allowed to do that" when it comes to all sorts of things.

I suppose it's idealist, but I like to think people could naturally come to a reasonable conclusion about things if we didn't have such a "Respect my Authoritah!" philosophy. If we think we need a leader, we will be led, that's all I'm sayin'.

They can follow a spiritual leader if they want, even a dead one for that matter.

AKA N. Korea living in a Necrocracy as Hitchens kindly put it, I care a bit about that indeed.

But I think if we lived in a society where liberty and individuality were valued and respected, we would not so easily fall prey to those who want to influence and manipulate people.

I only want secularism to prevail. Where we all do what we've been doing, and not feel guilty for sticking that thing in that girls wrong hole, or for the gays to do what they want, without feeling eternal damnation and condemnation from their community.

Just live our lives, bettering our community not stopping and starting like those who can't drive a stick.

suppose it's idealist, but I like to think people could naturally come to a reasonable conclusion about things if we didn't have such a "Respect my Authoritah!" philosophy. If we think we need a leader, we will be led, that's all I'm sayin'.

Cartman would be a great leader! Our leaders our ourselves, basics of the constitution, and with Bush, and Obama, making us believe that we need them to lead us, as Bush the bad cop and Obama the good cop, we are being tranced into it, and not thinking to want to be our own leaders, and do what we the country thinks is best, as stated in the constitution, but the constitution is forgotten.

reply to post by Republican08


The world can be a great place at times. All you have to do is look..... I also know that all of us have had this tendency to be unaware of the ramifications of our beliefs and actions. I think if we were honest with ourselves (many already are, or are trying to be more so), we would discover roots, not branches of phenomena. We then would stop hacking at the branches of trees that do not favor us, for we are only pruning them in order that they might bush out. This is what the divide and conquer mentality births, a mere hacking at the branches, often destroying innocents in the process. Get the root, identify it, and a destructive pattern can be removed. Of course, this all starts on the personal level, and spreads through society. It is very grass roots in nature. A rigid authoritative structure cannot make us change from the inside out; it can only get us to either mindlessly or cynically display a set of behaviors. We oftentimes believe those behaviors to be our own, and we do not think of how these behaviors came to be in the first place. I think we are gradually, but exponentially, increasing our searches for meaning, and we will come to know truths that were once wrapped in so many layers of disguise. I am an optimist, but I also know change is a very dynamic event.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Well my friend....

I'll tell you what I tell anybody who tries to push their views on me.
And that's this.

Get off my lawn!

No...

Wait for it.

What and whom you choose to or choose not to believe in is your business. I feel that many Atheists walk around with a chip on their shoulder just waiting for somebody to mention their faith and it's at that point the cock fight begins. Why is it that?

You just said most want the end of religion? What does it matter to you? I mean I could honestly care less if you believe in God. That's your loss. I respect others right to choose who and what they believe in if anything at all. Why do you have to want that to end? Why does it bother them so much that they have to attack those who do believe?

No I dont follow or agree with everything the church does or says to do. I'm not a mindless automaton.


I'll pray for you..

PEACE
Slay

I've been guilty of that chip on my shoulder.

Although two days ago, their was a man on the side of my workplace on a mat praying to Allah, and across the street was a man pumping gas in a church van loaded with all kids under age 13.

I found myself in this odd paradigm of if, I had to choose then which would I pick!?

I thought neither, one was indoctrinating children evily, as I suppose children are impressionable.

And the other was worshipping a god toward a certain way as he was merely only a direction.

I couldn't figure out which I would approve of, even when forced, I suppose if ultimately it'd of been the muslim for his faith, it takes a lot to be a muslim to pray in public, especially in Texas!

I figured his faith was strong, compared to that of a christian simply working with the subjective minds of children.

Then I figured well are they even worshipping something that exists, or just wanting more to life then their actually is.

Do they want their lottery ticket to be the winning ticket? yes, their ticket has to be the winning ticket, no matter what deed be done. In the end they both feel they were right, and possibly an opposing god would forgive them, saddening at best.

Hello 08,
Hope you are well,

Allow me if you will to address some of your thoughts,
First,yes,i am a Christian,No,I was not indoctrinated as a child,In fact i was the polar opposite,even as far as to indulge in the dark arts,schooled by my Mother and Father.

Second,I don't wish you gone,nor your way of thinking,If that is what you choose then you are free to do so,as i am free to choose what i believe.
I wish no harm on you,I do desire blessing,prosperity and goodness in your life.My choice is mine as yours is yours,i think no less of you for what you think,respect given and hope that it is returned.

Thirdly,When it comes to such things as homosexuality,abortion and those things that cause so much contention,Yes,I do not agree with them but who am i to say who is better or worse,I have in my life at one time done much evil and only by the Grace of God have i been forgiven,shall i not extend to others the gift given to me or am i a self righteous prat?

I do not condone the blowing up of stuff to make a point either,be it abortion clinics nor shopping centers,
I don't believe in fighting wars or killing those that i disagree with.
Not a way to get your point across...

Also God doesn't hate fags,that is a lie,I don't hate them either,i had a friend who was gay and i loved him very much but he died of AIDS,i still miss him.
.

I do not like empty words 08,nor do i like condescending platitudes,they make my teeth itch so when i say to you that i am truly sorry for anyone that has come off the wrong way or given you a false picture of what God is like and how much he loves you,and he does,very much,i mean it.
I appreciate your honesty in your threads and posts.

Violet.

Edit:Cause it's late




[edit on 13-8-2009 by BlackViolet]

reply to post by BlackViolet


Love the edit's cause it's late, because well it is late!

I'm not gay and undecided about abortion, although leaning toward abortion being ok, now in the biblical way, I should be stoned for such abomination.

Your gift of kindness in biblical texts, means nothing but that you achieve heaven to a higher extent more hopefully then others.

To those, atheist like me, I will die and burn in hell for eternity by standards of your god. Literally, burn for all of eternity never ending.

I appreciate the 'niceness' you put into your post here, but I have to argue with it, but don't want to to interupt the niceness.

As an atheist, I'm not out to seek the destruction of religion (even though I don't like it and wish it would vanish)

Nor am I interested in converting people from religion to free-thinking - that's not my problem.

My only "want" as an atheist, is for any political or govt body to remove all links to religion in their daily functions.

I'm not enforcing my beliefs on anyone else - why should they be enforced on me?

reply to post by Republican08


Religion is not the cause of every problem in this world today, or in the past. Wars could have easily been sold to people through other agenda's such as:
-Stretching the empire
-Gold
-Exploration
-Fear
-etc

Religion was used because there were more religious zealots back in those times rather then today. It is not the religion, but rather the leaders who sell their agenda's by manipulating the people's good will. Today, war was sold due to 9/11 rather then religion.

You must realize that everyone is the same being following a different path. If you try to push your atheist propaganda down my throat would make you no different then Jehovah's witnesses shoving a bible down my throat.

We are corrupt people so this world can't be as utopic as you would like to make it. Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely

Originally posted by Republican08
reply to post by BlackViolet

 

Love the edit's cause it's late, because well it is late!

I'm not gay and undecided about abortion, although leaning toward abortion being ok, now in the biblical way, I should be stoned for such abomination.

No dude,not true,there is no stoning to be done-

But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." John 8

What he wrote i don;t know but they bailed quickly and there was no stoning

Your gift of kindness in biblical texts, means nothing but that you achieve heaven to a higher extent more hopefully then others.

Ha,Well played 08,true,Thats if i thought that by doing good it would get me anywhere but thats a religious fallacy-

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast.Eph. 2:8,9

See,I cant do one thing to get me into Heaven,It is not by works,eg:being nice to you or putting money on the plate at church,God sees straight through that religious rot,I am called by him to do as he asks but if i think that i am gonna get a better seat casue i am such a pious clown then i am in for a world of hurt.It is my trust in him that leads me home.

To those, atheist like me, I will die and burn in hell for eternity by standards of your god. Literally, burn for all of eternity never ending.

Yes,this is true,He does say that,He also says that he accepts all that come to him,that more than anything in this world that he would love you to be reunited with him and that he has done all that is necessary to make that happen,he has given you free will to choose.See a lot of the problem 08 is that there are all the crew doing crazy things in his name,like freaky things,don't worry i see it go on and i cringe,I know that he is not like that and that one day there is gonna be some retribution and it's not going to be pretty,all that bad stuff that goes on that people say he told them to do,Well,if i was God and i'm not i wouldn't put up with any of it,there would be a large body count but he is merciful and long suffering and he thinks the world of you regardless.



I appreciate the 'niceness' you put into your post here, but I have to argue with it, but don't want to to interrupt the niceness.

Sure,You can argue all you want,call me all the names under the sun and then some but that matters not,I am not perfect by any stretch but you are not less or more than i am,So go for it,as i said,you will not change me and i will not try to change you,that is insulting,instead i choose to bless you.

Violet.

Edit,Cause it's later and i have no idea how to make this post look like something not resembling a dogs breakfast...





[edit on 13-8-2009 by BlackViolet]

reply to post by noonebutme


Thank you, I was reading down through the thread thinking if no one else says what you just said, then i'll post it! But I agree, I am not against people having their religion, I am against the power and influence it has on this Earth. I want that stranglehold to be released so the breath of logic, free will, judging and being condemned may be released.

I have been a serious critic of religion for a long time, but I am not an atheist. When I first began to think about religion as a kid, I quickly decided that it made no sense, and for a very brief time I called myself an atheist, until I realized that that didn't make any sense either. So I went with agnostic. This thread demonstrates the problem with atheism.

As others have stated, OP, you are simply on the opposite side of the belief system coin from those whose beliefs you so severely oppose. So certain are you that there is no creative being or force in the world greater than yourself, and that there is no life of any kind after death. From where does that certainty spring? You say from reason. Well, for someone who claims to hold reason in such high regard (your God equivalent, apparently) you don't seem to be using it here. How can you reasonably prove that there is no God or indeed any greater force, energy, etc. in the universe? How can you prove that there is no existence after death? You can't. It is just as unprovable as the theology of any given religion. You have not observed the effects needed to confirm or deny the existence of a spiritual dimension to reality.

Moreover, your goal to extinguish the fire of religion from this planet is a mad dream. I would go so far as to argue that your agenda is far more aggressive and close-minded than that of most members of any given faith. Despite your claims of nonviolent conversion, were a movement committed to your goals to be established, it is not hard to imagine it turning violent. You cannot force your beliefs on other people if they do not accept them, and as a supposedly reasonable atheist, I would think you would be able to see that. Do you think that every atheist is committed to nonviolence? Do you recall your Russian history?

In short, you sound like a fiery, young atheist who hasn't thought your plan all the way through. I'm not defending organized religion, but you would do well to reevaluate the underlying reasons behind your passion to rid the world of all religion.

republican...although i don't understand your name, and i can not, for the life of me, understand how you have such a poor written vocabulary...i do see an intelligence in your posts that keeps me coming back.

my reply is not even to you.

it's to everyone else.

an atheist pushes his ideology because we fear a world in which everyone has given up reason for the sake of spiritual faith. personally, i consider myself to be spiritual...possibly more so than most. but, if ever logic comes between me and my spiritual ideas, i look at evidence, instead of holding on, blindly, to faith.

if man gives up reason in favor of supernatural fairytales and invisible, imaginary people, then man forfeits his evolution.

medicine and technology are in direct opposition to religious belief. simply, if man is stuck in prayer circles surrounding the dieing, he will not have time in the laboratory preparing a remedy.

before anyone says, "so, nathan, are you saying that medicine and technology wouldn't be where we are if we had religion? because that's obviously untrue!"
no. i'm saying we've reached our heights in spite of religion.

most of us aren't trying to convert anyone. most of us don't really care if you personally want to believe in the infamous flying spaghetti monster.
but when religions go door to door, promoting a belief system that shuns logic (i.e. "we can't guess what god's plan for us really is."), we start talking back. and when we have political leaders looking for an apocalypse just so that they can prove their faith to their imaginary gods, and therefore put our entire population in danger, we start yelling. and when schools start teaching our kids that science, with its mountains of evidence are only minute theories next to the ridiculous creation myths of organized religion, we start screaming.

religions are leading humanity to complete self-annihilation.

THIS is what we're against, as far as i'm concerned.
the biggest problem, sadly, is the large population of people that allow this sort of thing to go on because they just want peace. i dig the hippie mentality as much as anyone. but this is not that simple. if we lie back and allow people to do what they want, they ruin the children of humanity via the snuffing out of reason and curiosity.


damn straight there's an agenda here. i'm god-d#m# sick of people god-blessing my innocent children.


btw, republican, i wasn't attacking you. i was making fun of you, but i sincerely do not make fun of someone that i don't enjoy. and i really meant what i said in the beginning of this post. i "pray" that you can take a bit of jest

[edit on 13-8-2009 by Nathan_Orin]

reply to post by Republican08

Semantics.

If that's what you consider playing semantics, then you've just tossed the English language out the window as nothing more than elaborate semantics. Fundamentalists aren't crazy, and do a disservice to yourself and atheists in general by severely underestimating a very dangerous, often very intelligent, and at times violently fanatical opponent.

Further, by simply writing them off as raving lunatics, you willfully dismiss a chance to study, understand, and potentially manage a very dangerous behavior in favor of simplistic falsehoods. A behavior that extends beyond religion into some other very dangerous territories. Such as political fundamentalists who are unbending hardliners to a particular ideology. This is not a light matter to ignore in these days of being able to build designer organisms from scratch and nuclear holocaust only a protocol and button press away.

Someone who is willing to give a life whether a family member (slay your son, good thing god jumped back in) or themselves, to death for a deity, "I" consider to be crazy

Crazy denotes unpredictable behavior. Fundamentalists are highly predictable, because they are guided by rigid rules of observance. Crazy isn't really synonymous with insane, which I think is the word you're looking for. Insanity denotes that one is not in possession of a sound mind. This isn't the case with fundamentalists, as their minds operate perfectly - especially in light of all the other silly misconceptions and BS we as a species believe, but which cannot be substantiated by evidence.

For instance, there are many Atheists who claim to accept evolution, but who cannot even correctly define the core of Darwin's theory. They are carrying, perpetuating, and believing without evidence mere fantasies when they bring up terms like "de-evolve" or "survival of the fittest". Some Atheists favor empiricism and dualism in theories of the mind, despite being literally swamped with evidence to the contrary in their daily lives. You yourself believe that fundamentalists are "crazy" based on personal subjective criteria unique only to you, rather than evidence. The stress on "I" indicates to me it's a deeply felt belief you will not relinquish easily.

Certainly many conservatives tend to think that liberals are insane, just as many liberals think that Conservatives are insane.

So to be considered insane by most of humanity, you've generally got to be pretty well outside the realm of normal human experience. As said, believing things ardently in face of contradictory evidence is not outside this realm. Further, killing and inflicting injury on others for whatever reason or another is a universal behavior of humans.

Though, we tend to have a strong aversion to murder and killing our fellow humans. That's what stereotypes and other dehumanizing tactics are for! Then we're no longer murdering actual people... we're slaying demons and stomping on cockroaches.

Such little rebuttal and the only word is "no"?

What the hell else do you want? I stated you were misinformed, and provided a link to a proper dictionary definition which did not corroborate your supposition.

Please explain broader after semantics.

If you really want a broader understanding of what fundamentalism is, how it affects behavior, what traits and tendencies are typically diagnostic in fundamentalists, and it's role in religion and politics (among other areas); then might I suggest picking up a copy of The Fundamentalism Project.

It'll take more than a weekend to read, though. You may just want to take the week off. See, The Fundamentalism Project is a five volume definitive study of fundamentalism.

"They're all just crazy religious peoples who are crazy because of religion" ... It doesn't quite conceptualize the real scope and depth of the issue at hand here.

reply to post by Nathan_Orin

we fear a world in which everyone has given up reason for the sake of spiritual faith.

I fear the abandonment of reason in general. As I mentioned above, reason and religion are not diametrically opposed. Nor does the abandonment of spiritual faith in any way guarantee the subsequent promotion of reason. Look around here. ATS is rife with irrational and unreasonable personalities and propositions put forth and endorsed by those who have rejected spiritual faith.



Also, to reiterate above sentiments, there are numerous examples of rational and reasonable people in science and in history who were deeply religious. From Synesius of Cyrene to Ibn Al-Haytham to Gregor Mendel to Robert Bakker. In fact, many religions have embraced reason and rationality to explain the natural world. In fact, while religious fundamentalism was burning the classical world and mankinds accumulated knowledge, it was the religion of Islam who ultimately preserved and protected the light of reason and the naturalistic discovery of the mysteries of our world. The Quran and the Creation were seen as equally valid paths of knowing Allah. Through his words and through his works.

The aggressive collection of knowledge, the promotion of debate and academic discourse, the enshrinement of knowledge, and the drive generate new knowledge... the very foundations of the Hellenistic Era that saw the rise of the Great Library of Alexandria was driven and promoted by Ptolemaic dynasty, a line of rulers who spent great effort on building and promoting new temples to the Egyptian pantheon for their subjects.. and even later took on the dress and titles of Pharaoh, the traditional god-king rulers of Egypt. Reason allowed them to use religion as a bonding mechanism.

Deism is often referred to as the "Religion of Reason", and the "Deist Bible" written by Thomas Paine was titled "The age of reason", was a scathing rebuking of Christianity and organized religions in an attempt to do for men's souls what his earlier work "Common Sense" did for their freedoms.

Back in the 18th century, though, the proposition of a creator god was a reasonable conclusion given the lack of evidence. However, since such a god was apparently indifferent and invisible to us, then the only way to know anything about such a creator, it was supposed, was by studying the evidence of creation. Not to prove anything positively about god, but to disprove false claims made by others.

Paine championed the cause of reason, writing such memorable quotes as:

"The creation is the Bible of the Deist. He there reads, in the handwriting of the Creator himself, the certainty of His existence and the immutability of His power, and all other Bibles and Testaments are to him forgeries."

"The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason. I have never used any other and I trust I never shall."


Though one of my favorites to Only by using reason can man discover God. Take away his reason, and man could not understand anything.

"There is a happiness in Deism, when rightly understood, that is not to be found in any other system of religion. All other systems have something in them that either shock our reason, or are repugnant to it, and man, if he thinks at all, must stifle his reason in order to force himself to believe them."

While I typically consider myself closest to Deism in religious identity, I have to admit that I don't find it to be the religion of reason it was in Paine's day. We now know enough about our Universe's origins to put the "fine tuning" argument to bed. Thus, it can no longer be reasoned that a god exists and created our reality and our world. It's an unprovable and unfalsifiable hypothesis. It has become predominantly faith based. Even so, not much has changed. Aside from believing in god, it's practically indistinguishable from Atheism.

if man gives up reason in favor of supernatural fairytales and invisible, imaginary people, then man forfeits his evolution.

I'm going to assume the use of the term Evolution was meant poetically. Evolution doesn't work on the individual level. It affects populations. To suggest a forfeit of Evolution in such a manner would be akin to forfeiting someone's gravity because he tried to build a air flight machine.

Further, it's circular logic. The belief in some kind of metaphysical or spiritual realm beyond our observation and interaction is a universal behavior expressed in some fashion in all cultures and societies we know of both past and present. While not definitive, there's good circumstantial evidence to suggest that Neanderthals had at least rudimentary superstitions or belief systems as well IIRC. If religion is man made, and the human brain is the product of evolution - then it follows that religion is an emergent phenomena of evolution.

So Evolution helped to create a creature who's brain could image and believe in gods, but if we follow our nature and allow ourselves to believe those gods, we forfeit our evolution?

Sounds rather Old Testmenty to me. :p

religions are leading humanity to complete self-annihilation.

I dunno. Looking at the vast and dizzying diversity of hominid species we're sharing our ecosystems with now, it's hard for me to accept that we're just going to kill ourselves off somehow. Our higher intelligence is so beneficial, that extinction might just be impossible.

Honestly though, I think intelligence of our level may be a dead end. We're the last of the hominids. We haven't even come to grips with who and what we are, and we're already in possession of the technology to eradicate ourselves. Some of which is now loaded into missiles.

Athiests have a serious problem.

It's called stupid gullible people. How are you gonna control the dummies once you no longer have religion to do it for you?

Technology?

Implanted tracking chips?

Cameras and spies?

Force?

Mass propaganda?

Damn athiests are gonna ruin it for everyone.

[edit on 14-8-2009 by In nothing we trust]

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
It's called stupid gullible people. How are you gonna control the dummies once you no longer have religion to do it for you?

I'd rather live in a world of dummies in control of themselves than being under the control of religion.

At least under their own control there's the chance rational logic might seep through and help them manage their lives.

How funny is it that the people who seem to have caused the least amount of harm (other then Buddhists of corse) for their religion is the ones classified as evil. If Atheists are going to hell, I would much rather go there and be with the company with suck smart and kind men and women rather then to heaven where I would have to spend all of time with the nut jobs and evolutionary rejects of all mankind.

You know, Stalin was an atheist too.
Just throwing that out there.

I think your points are pretty interesting. I'm an Agnostic which I've said in another thread of yours, but to me I don't believe in a higher power, nor do I not believe there's a higher power. I have the mind set that I don't know if there is one or not, but I won't choose, because I don't want to leave out any possibility.

On your thought about if Atheism was the dominating belief on this rock, that there would be less killing and such just consider this. If people believed there was no God or higher power, then what would be stopping them from killing people, because if it were the case, there wouldn't be any force that could "punish" or send them to hell for their sins or whatever. So, it's quite possible that having Atheism be the dominant belief, it wouldn't be any better or worse. It could be the savior that this planet is looking for as well. We really don't know at this point. Religion does keep a lot of people in check, even though there are a lot that use it for their own personal gain and power and still try to justify killing and such, but those people aren't really religious since they don't follow the document that's the foundation of their belief anyway. They are just hiding behind a mask, but their actions show what they really believe, not some label they give themselves because they go to a church or synagogue or whatever every week. So all the people that are child molesters, or kill people, or harm others, and call themselves Christian, or whatever, are no more Christian than someone who isn't spiritual at all and kills people as well. If you want to look at the rapture of the church as an example (not saying it will or won't happen, but it seems like a good example for this) there were very few Christians that were actually taken away before the Tribulation takes place. Those were the people who were selfless, who knew the word of Christ, and actually lived his teachings in their own lives. Just because you can quote bible scripture, doesn't mean that you're a Christian IMO. You have to live his teachings and incorporate them in your own life. I try to do that, not because I fear some figure in the sky or that I'm going to hell, but because "I" want to be a good person and the teachings of Christ are a good guide to do so. Whether or not he was a real person or not I think is irrelevent (again I'm not saying he was alive or not, I wasn't there, I don't know), but the ideas are what is truly important. People come and go, but ideas will live forever.

S&F for this thread though, because your posts make me think and I like that. I don't agree or disagree with you, but I thank you for having the point of view that you do so that I can view things from a different perspective. Hopefully, I've done the same for you.