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If God Is Omniscient, Then

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posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 02:17 AM
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he obviously knows all. He already knows who will eventually end up in hell, and who will end up in heaven. So doesn't that kind of kill the point of everything in between???




posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 09:27 AM
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Originally posted by AlexG141989
he obviously knows all. He already knows who will eventually end up in hell, and who will end up in heaven. So doesn't that kind of kill the point of everything in between???


Nope, because the person still has to choose Him or not.

Thanks,
TT



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by texastig

Originally posted by AlexG141989
he obviously knows all. He already knows who will eventually end up in hell, and who will end up in heaven. So doesn't that kind of kill the point of everything in between???


Nope, because the person still has to choose Him or not.

Thanks,
TT


If God already knows everything, then there is no choice for a human to make. The "choice" exists from eternity. This is the problem with omniscience - it practically destroys the concept of free-will in any meaningful sense.

Peace,
Daniel



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 10:35 AM
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No it doesn't, really.

Knowing what choice you are going to make is in no way related to your ability to make that choice. Knowing doesn't equal to controlling.


PS: This exact same topic has come up literally dozens of times before in this same forum, and it ends up with the exact same answers.



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 10:37 AM
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Originally posted by pdpayne0418

Originally posted by texastig

Originally posted by AlexG141989
he obviously knows all. He already knows who will eventually end up in hell, and who will end up in heaven. So doesn't that kind of kill the point of everything in between???


Nope, because the person still has to choose Him or not.

Thanks,
TT


If God already knows everything, then there is no choice for a human to make. The "choice" exists from eternity. This is the problem with omniscience - it practically destroys the concept of free-will in any meaningful sense.

Peace,
Daniel


I disagree. It's not about God, it's about us. God knows what choice we will make but we don't until we make that choice. That's why Jesus said we must believe. We have the choice to believe in Him or not.
God doesn't make robots and He is a gentleman and doesn't force Himself on people.



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by babloyi
No it doesn't, really.

Knowing what choice you are going to make is in no way related to your ability to make that choice. Knowing doesn't equal to controlling.


PS: This exact same topic has come up literally dozens of times before in this same forum, and it ends up with the exact same answers.


Knowing something before it happens implies that a certain event or "choice" already exists. Otherwise, it could not be known. It is meaningless to say that we are able to choose something that already exists as our "choice" as a definite reality. We may have the illusion of choice (if one believes in God's omniscience, which I do not), but we really do not have the choice.

Peace,
Daniel

[edit on 13-8-2009 by pdpayne0418]



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by texastig

Originally posted by pdpayne0418

Originally posted by texastig

Originally posted by AlexG141989
he obviously knows all. He already knows who will eventually end up in hell, and who will end up in heaven. So doesn't that kind of kill the point of everything in between???


Nope, because the person still has to choose Him or not.

Thanks,
TT


If God already knows everything, then there is no choice for a human to make. The "choice" exists from eternity. This is the problem with omniscience - it practically destroys the concept of free-will in any meaningful sense.

Peace,
Daniel


I disagree. It's not about God, it's about us. God knows what choice we will make but we don't until we make that choice. That's why Jesus said we must believe. We have the choice to believe in Him or not.
God doesn't make robots and He is a gentleman and doesn't force Himself on people.






Stating we do not know what choice we will make until we make it is redundant. That's not the issue. The issue is whether or not it is ontologically possible to make choices if God is omniscient. As I said before, if God knows the choices we make before we make them, then they must already exist in reality and are, therefore, not real choices.

Peace,
Daniel

P.S. If you think God is a gentleman (and are a biblical literalist), I suggest you go back and read through the Jewish Testament again.



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 02:46 AM
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reply to post by pdpayne0418
 


Originally posted by pdpayne0418
Knowing something before it happens implies that a certain event or "choice" already exists. Otherwise, it could not be known. It is meaningless to say that we are able to choose something that already exists as our "choice" as a definite reality. We may have the illusion of choice (if one believes in God's omniscience, which I do not), but we really do not have the choice.

Peace,
Daniel

It really doesn't. I am having trouble finding a way to explain this....but foreknowledge really doesn't imply pre-existence. Just because your choice is known from beforehand, doesn't mean that you didn't fully exercise your free will to make that choice. There is no logical connection between "Foreknowledge" and "Free will". A "Choice" isn't something that exists on its own for eternity.



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 07:30 AM
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Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by pdpayne0418
 


Originally posted by pdpayne0418
Knowing something before it happens implies that a certain event or "choice" already exists. Otherwise, it could not be known. It is meaningless to say that we are able to choose something that already exists as our "choice" as a definite reality. We may have the illusion of choice (if one believes in God's omniscience, which I do not), but we really do not have the choice.

Peace,
Daniel

It really doesn't. I am having trouble finding a way to explain this....but foreknowledge really doesn't imply pre-existence. Just because your choice is known from beforehand, doesn't mean that you didn't fully exercise your free will to make that choice. There is no logical connection between "Foreknowledge" and "Free will". A "Choice" isn't something that exists on its own for eternity.


Listen, philosophers have been arguing about this for ages, and our two views are the two views philosophers hold. If they haven't been able to figure it out, our chances of doing so are pretty slim. Philosophers on my side cannot make sense of your proposition. Philosophers on your side seem to be able to wrap their minds around the coexistence of God's omniscience and free choice.

I see where you're coming from, because I've read both sides of the issue. In the omniscient camp, most believers think God sees not only the choice to be made (focusing on that confuses the issue for them), but He also sees the future of the free being making that choice - hence, they see it as totally free.

I, on the other hand, believe that if a certain future is known, then it is also settled. Something that is settled can only happen that certain way; therefore, there is only the illusion that choices have actually been made. It is akin to characters in a story thinking they are living their own free lives, when in reality, the author has already written the story.

Simply put, God's omniscience cannot be separated from his authorship (in my opinion). There is only one philosopher that was able to make any kind of sense out of God's omniscience - Luis de Molina. His position has come to be called "middle knowledge," in the sense that God only knows the future because He knows every possible outcome of every decision that will ever be made + all possibilities in between. I believe, however, that even this middle position falls based on the fact that counterfactuals have no truth value.

Peace,
Daniel

[edit on 14-8-2009 by pdpayne0418]



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 09:22 AM
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Originally posted by pdpayne0418
Listen, philosophers have been arguing about this for ages, and our two views are the two views philosophers hold. If they haven't been able to figure it out, our chances of doing so are pretty slim.

Actually, as far as I understand, the "two views" that philosophers have been holding are predestination and free will. I'm not holding either of these views, because I'm holding both of them. Both are possible, and are not mutually exclusive.



Originally posted by pdpayne0418
I see where you're coming from, because I've read both sides of the issue. In the omniscient camp, most believers think God sees not only the choice to be made (focusing on that confuses the issue for them), but He also sees the future of the free being making that choice - hence, they see it as totally free.

I gotta be honest here, I have no idea what you are saying
. And since I don't understand it, this is probably not my position.



Originally posted by pdpayne0418
I, on the other hand, believe that if a certain future is known, then it is also settled. Something that is settled can only happen that certain way; therefore, there is only the illusion that choices have actually been made. It is akin to characters in a story thinking they are living their own free lives, when in reality, the author has already written the story.

A better metaphor would be a line(representing a person's life) drawn out in front of you (being the "God" in this case). You can see the entire line, where it tilts upwards, where it tilts left, continuous left to right, until it ends. While you can see the entire line, and all the choices, and all the deviations, outside of the construct of time, the person whose life it is, they're plodding through, beginning to end, making the choices as they come across them.



Originally posted by pdpayne0418
Simply put, God's omniscience cannot be separated from his authorship (in my opinion). There is only one philosopher that was able to make any kind of sense out of God's omniscience - Luis de Molina. His position has come to be called "middle knowledge," in the sense that God only knows the future because He knows every possible outcome of every decision that will ever be made + all possibilities in between. I believe, however, that even this middle position falls based on the fact that counterfactuals have no truth value.

An interesting position, one I've heard before, but I don't personally agree with.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:02 AM
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reply to post by AlexG141989
 


hello

not really the bit in the middle is for our benefit i believe. dont forget the God is outside of our time so its nothing for him

david



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 06:42 AM
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Originally posted by pdpayne0418
Knowing something before it happens implies that a certain event or "choice" already exists. Otherwise, it could not be known.


so us knowing that the sun will come up tomorrow means that the sun has already come up?

thats faulty reasoning



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 07:46 AM
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Originally posted by drevill
reply to post by AlexG141989
 


hello

not really the bit in the middle is for our benefit i believe. dont forget the God is outside of our time so its nothing for him

david


What does it mean to say that something or someone is outside of time? How is that possible? I know it's an orthodox Christian belief, but if everything that exists is within space-time, how can something exist outside of space time. To me, placing God beyond time is the ultimate stretch in reaching for an explanation to explain omniscience.

Peace,
Daniel



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 08:33 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by pdpayne0418
Knowing something before it happens implies that a certain event or "choice" already exists. Otherwise, it could not be known.


so us knowing that the sun will come up tomorrow means that the sun has already come up?

thats faulty reasoning


This is ridiculous. Knowing something based on observation and experience (i.e. the sun will "come up" tomorrow) is in a different category altogether than God's supposed omniscience. Anyway, we do not know for certain that the sun will "come up" tomorrow - we assume that it will.

Peace,
Daniel



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 10:09 AM
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reply to post by pdpayne0418
 


Originally posted by pdpayne0418
What does it mean to say that something or someone is outside of time? How is that possible? I know it's an orthodox Christian belief, but if everything that exists is within space-time, how can something exist outside of space time. To me, placing God beyond time is the ultimate stretch in reaching for an explanation to explain omniscience.


That is the bit where Omnipotence (being all-powerful, i.e. having infinite power) comes in. Logically, a thing cannot be all-powerful if it is trapped within the constraints of another thing. So in this case, nothing within the universe can be defined as being "all-powerful", because that means that they'd be within the constraints of space (yes, currently the universe is of a fixed amount of space), and within the constraints of time (having existed at some point after the singularity that is the big bang, and before the end of the universe, however that may occur). In a more direct definition of "All-powerful", nothing in the universe can be all-powerful, because the universe has a constant amount of energy that cannot change.

Once again, my example of the line drawn in the sand comes in:



_____________________
A________________________/ \
\_____________B

(Please excuse the crappy example, I hope it shows up fine for you. The bends are my attempt at showing the different deviations in choices a person may make).

God would not be viewing the line from any point within the line. God is not at the beginning of the line (A) looking on, or at the end of the line (B) looking back. God would be sitting, much like you, and have the entire line in the field of vision, i.e. outside of the system, not constrained by any of its constraints.


Once again, I'm sorry, I'm really bad at explaining this stuff


[edit on 15-8-2009 by babloyi]



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 01:18 PM
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Originally posted by AlexG141989
he obviously knows all. He already knows who will eventually end up in hell, and who will end up in heaven. So doesn't that kind of kill the point of everything in between???


My personal belief is that God gave us a mind and the will to make our own decisions. From there, we are tested by life to determine whether or not we can overcome the temptations of a material world that is in itself, based on the forces of greed and an uncaring personal interest.

Actually... it all goes a lot further than that. Call this the Reader's Digest version, lol.

...



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:02 PM
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Time as we experience it could be a local phenomenon caused by torsional forces within our solar system. Whitley Strieber claims to have been in a time machine that had spinning drums that compensated for this phenomenon.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:18 PM
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Do people simply not get this is a school, and you are hear for an education on good and evil? That in the end, even the evil serve the father?

As much as I dislike the evil things that go on here on this planet, at the end of the day I will shake their hand and thank them for it. Because it is that which woke me up, it is because of that I can understand the differences and make the wise choice.

This doesn't mean you should take up evil or anything, but all things have a purpose, all things are created by god, and all things in the end serve him.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:37 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia
Do people simply not get this is a school, and you are hear for an education on good and evil? That in the end, even the evil serve the father?

As much as I dislike the evil things that go on here on this planet, at the end of the day I will shake their hand and thank them for it. Because it is that which woke me up, it is because of that I can understand the differences and make the wise choice.

This doesn't mean you should take up evil or anything, but all things have a purpose, all things are created by god, and all things in the end serve him.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.



What in the world does this have to do with God's omniscience?

Peace,
Daniel



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 04:58 PM
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reply to post by pdpayne0418
 


Ummm, I was responding to the original post.



he obviously knows all. He already knows who will eventually end up in hell, and who will end up in heaven. So doesn't that kind of kill the point of everything in between???


What is the point of everything in between? For those who experience it to gain understanding and wisdom.

Pretty sure the question wasn't about what does Omniscient mean, but rather if that is true then what is it for.

:bnghd:



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