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Originally posted by AlexG141989
he obviously knows all. He already knows who will eventually end up in hell, and who will end up in heaven. So doesn't that kind of kill the point of everything in between???
Originally posted by texastig
Originally posted by AlexG141989
he obviously knows all. He already knows who will eventually end up in hell, and who will end up in heaven. So doesn't that kind of kill the point of everything in between???
Nope, because the person still has to choose Him or not.
Thanks,
TT
Originally posted by pdpayne0418
Originally posted by texastig
Originally posted by AlexG141989
he obviously knows all. He already knows who will eventually end up in hell, and who will end up in heaven. So doesn't that kind of kill the point of everything in between???
Nope, because the person still has to choose Him or not.
Thanks,
TT
If God already knows everything, then there is no choice for a human to make. The "choice" exists from eternity. This is the problem with omniscience - it practically destroys the concept of free-will in any meaningful sense.
Peace,
Daniel
Originally posted by babloyi
No it doesn't, really.
Knowing what choice you are going to make is in no way related to your ability to make that choice. Knowing doesn't equal to controlling.
PS: This exact same topic has come up literally dozens of times before in this same forum, and it ends up with the exact same answers.
Originally posted by texastig
Originally posted by pdpayne0418
Originally posted by texastig
Originally posted by AlexG141989
he obviously knows all. He already knows who will eventually end up in hell, and who will end up in heaven. So doesn't that kind of kill the point of everything in between???
Nope, because the person still has to choose Him or not.
Thanks,
TT
If God already knows everything, then there is no choice for a human to make. The "choice" exists from eternity. This is the problem with omniscience - it practically destroys the concept of free-will in any meaningful sense.
Peace,
Daniel
I disagree. It's not about God, it's about us. God knows what choice we will make but we don't until we make that choice. That's why Jesus said we must believe. We have the choice to believe in Him or not.
God doesn't make robots and He is a gentleman and doesn't force Himself on people.
Originally posted by pdpayne0418
Knowing something before it happens implies that a certain event or "choice" already exists. Otherwise, it could not be known. It is meaningless to say that we are able to choose something that already exists as our "choice" as a definite reality. We may have the illusion of choice (if one believes in God's omniscience, which I do not), but we really do not have the choice.
Peace,
Daniel
Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by pdpayne0418
Originally posted by pdpayne0418
Knowing something before it happens implies that a certain event or "choice" already exists. Otherwise, it could not be known. It is meaningless to say that we are able to choose something that already exists as our "choice" as a definite reality. We may have the illusion of choice (if one believes in God's omniscience, which I do not), but we really do not have the choice.
Peace,
Daniel
It really doesn't. I am having trouble finding a way to explain this....but foreknowledge really doesn't imply pre-existence. Just because your choice is known from beforehand, doesn't mean that you didn't fully exercise your free will to make that choice. There is no logical connection between "Foreknowledge" and "Free will". A "Choice" isn't something that exists on its own for eternity.
Originally posted by pdpayne0418
Listen, philosophers have been arguing about this for ages, and our two views are the two views philosophers hold. If they haven't been able to figure it out, our chances of doing so are pretty slim.
Originally posted by pdpayne0418
I see where you're coming from, because I've read both sides of the issue. In the omniscient camp, most believers think God sees not only the choice to be made (focusing on that confuses the issue for them), but He also sees the future of the free being making that choice - hence, they see it as totally free.
Originally posted by pdpayne0418
I, on the other hand, believe that if a certain future is known, then it is also settled. Something that is settled can only happen that certain way; therefore, there is only the illusion that choices have actually been made. It is akin to characters in a story thinking they are living their own free lives, when in reality, the author has already written the story.
Originally posted by pdpayne0418
Simply put, God's omniscience cannot be separated from his authorship (in my opinion). There is only one philosopher that was able to make any kind of sense out of God's omniscience - Luis de Molina. His position has come to be called "middle knowledge," in the sense that God only knows the future because He knows every possible outcome of every decision that will ever be made + all possibilities in between. I believe, however, that even this middle position falls based on the fact that counterfactuals have no truth value.
Originally posted by pdpayne0418
Knowing something before it happens implies that a certain event or "choice" already exists. Otherwise, it could not be known.
Originally posted by drevill
reply to post by AlexG141989
hello
not really the bit in the middle is for our benefit i believe. dont forget the God is outside of our time so its nothing for him
david
Originally posted by miriam0566
Originally posted by pdpayne0418
Knowing something before it happens implies that a certain event or "choice" already exists. Otherwise, it could not be known.
so us knowing that the sun will come up tomorrow means that the sun has already come up?
thats faulty reasoning
Originally posted by pdpayne0418
What does it mean to say that something or someone is outside of time? How is that possible? I know it's an orthodox Christian belief, but if everything that exists is within space-time, how can something exist outside of space time. To me, placing God beyond time is the ultimate stretch in reaching for an explanation to explain omniscience.
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Originally posted by AlexG141989
he obviously knows all. He already knows who will eventually end up in hell, and who will end up in heaven. So doesn't that kind of kill the point of everything in between???
Originally posted by badmedia
Do people simply not get this is a school, and you are hear for an education on good and evil? That in the end, even the evil serve the father?
As much as I dislike the evil things that go on here on this planet, at the end of the day I will shake their hand and thank them for it. Because it is that which woke me up, it is because of that I can understand the differences and make the wise choice.
This doesn't mean you should take up evil or anything, but all things have a purpose, all things are created by god, and all things in the end serve him.
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
he obviously knows all. He already knows who will eventually end up in hell, and who will end up in heaven. So doesn't that kind of kill the point of everything in between???