soon we will have to choose

does anyone realise that soon we will have to choose which side we are on even if you do not agree with the war on terror or think it was started by washington for reasons known only to them.

after the be-heading of an american yesterday it suddemly dawned on me that soon we will have to choose which side we are on or face death at the hands of the now enemy.

before september 11th 2001 the world was a very different place, i felt the human race had a future but not anymore, I wonder why people cannot see through the lies of bush, blair, rumsfeld,bin laden, that said it does not matter now who is making the decisions the people who were in control on that day in 2001 forsaw a world with war famine and death on a scale that the human race has never seen.
I know these things were happening before sept 11th but the west had enjoyed a peace since world war 2, but now we will have to choose where our loyalties lie or the way of life that i as a person is used too in the uk will be no more.

there is an enemy within the uk that needs to be dealt with first, there are so many potential threats within our borders now with all the immagration that there will be only one solution and that is internment, for we reap what we sow i hope i am wrong.

my heart goes out to all the victims and families of the dead since that day in 2001.
May god forgive us all.

you seem to have made a choice...a different kind of choice from the one you refer to.

you have chosen to believe the world is doomed and cannot be saved. you seem to believe as evidence by your post that humanity is now irreversibly on a course towards its own destruction.

how sad. i dont like whats going on in the world but whats happening isnt just in america or in iraq, its happening all over the planet on every continent.

in fact humanity has been through worse and not only survived but flourished afterwards although old scars heal slowly.

there are many choices to make, including how we see the world and what we plan on doing in it. will we each do our part to help make it better, destroy it or twiddle our thumbs and be content to simply watch it slide off into the deep end thinking we can do nothing at all?

there is always hope, but first you must want to find it. no matter how small that hope may be it is always there. there is always something to cling on to that makes you say "this isnt much but its worth trying just to say i tried", just to give it a fair chance!

this isnt about a handful of politicians or a war, its about humanity as a whole. it encompasses more issues than you realize.

or alternatively we can stop absorbing this whole "the world is now a very different place" "stay in your homes terrorists want to kill you" bull, continue opposing the war till our leaders see sense or we vote them out which we will, and then we can go back to our lives and forget about the whole stupid affair.

This isn't the only war going on the planet.

Bush and Blair want you to believe the world is a different place, that its us and them, that there is no hope unless we stand united against the enemy ( whoever the hell they are ) But its just spin.

ignore it, go live your life, there�s plenty of nice things out there to think about.

edit - looks like the clown beat me to it


[Edited on 12-5-2004 by Simon]

Nothing like those wonderful "head in the sand" type posters who just leave their asses in the air in a good kicking position....

There is no going back to pre Iraq war days.. or even pre 9/11

Those times HAVE changed. Walk away now and the trouble will follow back home.

There certainly is an enemy within, and it does need to be addressed with great urgency. I do worry however, that recent events could pave the way for a fascist movement in the UK. There's never been an easier time for morons like the BNP and the NF to prey on the fear and paranoia of us "decent hard working white folk", as they put it.
I really hope that we don't see a nazi type purge of everyone with brown skin, it would be unjust and repugnant. I fear that this might happen though, the ignorant masses are already saying thing like "get 'em all out" and "kill the b*stard lot of 'em". I hear it every day - in the office, in the pub, in the street...

ignorance and paranoia are potentially as big a threat as terrorism to peace here in the UK.

Originally posted by ThePrankMonkey
you seem to have made a choice...a different kind of choice from the one you refer to.

you have chosen to believe the world is doomed and cannot be saved. you seem to believe as evidence by your post that humanity is now irreversibly on a course towards its own destruction.

how sad. i dont like whats going on in the world but whats happening isnt just in america or in iraq, its happening all over the planet on every continent.

in fact humanity has been through worse and not only survived but flourished afterwards although old scars heal slowly.

there are many choices to make, including how we see the world and what we plan on doing in it. will we each do our part to help make it better, destroy it or twiddle our thumbs and be content to simply watch it slide off into the deep end thinking we can do nothing at all?

there is always hope, but first you must want to find it. no matter how small that hope may be it is always there. there is always something to cling on to that makes you say "this isnt much but its worth trying just to say i tried", just to give it a fair chance!

this isnt about a handful of politicians or a war, its about humanity as a whole. it encompasses more issues than you realize.

i do have hope but i also know that they are pushing us so gar into the pit that even if you do not agree with the war you will soon have to fight for your way of life look whats happening in the usa they are wawy fighting a war they cannot win in iraq when there southern borders are being overun with mexicans, in europe we opened the flodgates a long time ago and now we are losing our national identity we have an oppressed people inworld war 2 by this i mean the israelis buolding a warsaw ghetto like wall around an impoverished people, we have warlords supplied with weapons from the west killing millions in africa,

forgive me for sounding pesamistic but i can smell which way the wind is blowing and i know this war on terror is going to land on my doorstep and when push comes to shove i know i will defend my country from within.

"There is no going back to pre Iraq war days.. or even pre 9/11 "

This sort of attitude always has me in fits of laughter.
What exactly do you think happened to so fundamentally irreversibly alter the planet earth and human attitudes across the planet ?

Sorry, I know some people feel this war against an enemy they can't even define is the biggest thing to happen to the planet since the dinosaurs died out but to the rest of the sane world its just another pointless war fought.

Sooner or later either the US administration or another global administration will realise that an unending war against an amorphous "evil" is a pointless ( and expensive ) exercise in futility, and it will end.

I was going to end by saying "and we can all get back to normal" but then I remembered. I'm exactly the same as I was before 11 / 09 / 04 so's 90% of the planet. There's no normal to get back to, we're already there.

Hmmmm�. Looks like you just got your own ass kicked.

No, things did change after 9/11. After those planes hit and all the innocent lives were taken, shock set in. The realization that we can and will be a target, we are "touchable".

After the shock and anger wore off, (for some anyways, I am still angry) then came the task of making sure this don't happen again.

We have a president with enough balls to say that's enough. No more pansy ass walking on glass with those bastards!!!! No more turning a blind eye to the training camps, the genocides, the "evil america" bull that has been prevalent for so long now.

I for one agree with this war, and while it will not be easy or short, I know it can be won.

"A house divided against itself can not stand" Sound familair?

I have always lived in a world where anyone can be touched. If you truly believe that before the world trade centre attack Americans lived in blissful ignorance of terrorism then your really pushing the global stereotype that Americans don't know anything about the world outside their own borders.

In the UK we had terrorists periodically blowing us up for years and they only lived a couple of hundred miles away.

Your world may have changed.

Mine hasn't and neither has most of the rest of the worlds.

We simply don't understand the prevalent message coming out of the US at the moment.

"THE WORLD HAS CHANGED! WE CAN ALL BE TOUCHED BY EVIL! ITS DANGEROUS OUT THERE!"

while we sit in our countries shouting back "YES... WE KNOW� ITS ALWAYS BEEN LIKE THAT, WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL ?!?"

Seriously, sometimes the US sounds like a kid who's been stung by a bee for the first time and doesn't want to play out doors ever again.

There was a huge change after 9/11.

The US took a mighty kick in the nuts that day.
.....and the unfortunate thing, is that those lives that were lost will count for nothing.

The US answers to no one, they wear blinkers and their narrow field of vision is obscured by gun sights.

For all the hundreds of billions of dollars spent in the US on defence (attack) they will never win this war, ever...!!

Why?

Because they are wrong, they are the biggest bully in the playground, disagree with them, consider yourself an enemy of the free world. They think the world is B&W, you are with us (US) or you are against us.

I for one will choose neither of those colours.

I will teach and be taught but in no way preached and bought....!!

Originally posted by Koka
They think the world is B&W, you are with us (US) or you are against us.

I remember that comment from Bush... didn't Blair echo the same sentiments too (shock!)? I absolutely resent that kind of undemocratic gung-ho attitude.

There were repercussions after the world trade centre attack, but there was not a global change. The world didn't suddenly become more dangerous ( unless you happen to be living in Iraq ) But globally what changed that directly affects my life and can never be changed back ? nothing.

This whole "the world is a different place now America has been attacked" smacks of ego.

Guess what America. My life has not changed one bit. Neither have the lives of most of my friends and family. Its the same old day to day ho hum existence its always been. There�s a war on now ? Big deal there�s always a war on somewhere. Air port security is tighter ? so what. Its not like I don't still go places by plane. The only thing that has really changed is some peoples attitudes. They've become paranoid. Does that effect me ? not really. Will they ever become less paranoid ? probably.
Sorry but this whole "war against terror" is just one big shrug. An expensive shrug. A noisy violent stupid shrug, but an earth shattering event ? gimme a break. I still eat corn flakes, I still go to work, I still make love to my girlfriend and I still sleep easy at night knowing that the chances someone is going to fly a plane into my house are the same now as they were 10 years ago, pretty damn small.

I don't think the world has changed, but I do think Americans have changed. I do believe that a lot of us never thought something like 9/11 could happen here, and then it did.

The world has changed? Why wasn't I told? Oh, Bush told us that's right. I just don't listen too closely to people dumber than me. Nor am I able to consider them an authority figure on anything. I've always been that way though. I mean it just makes sense.

Anyway, the world hasn't changed yet. I'm hoping for the best though. Oh yea, I can prove the world hasn't changed...

Undeniable Proof

I suspect some have but I can't believe that its many. If they have changed then its not as a result of the WTC disaster but as a result of how the situation was handled afterwards and how the government and the media potrayed the situation. the "hyping" of paranoia.

This isn't the first terrorist attack on the US. There have been plenty, nor is it the first times Americans have died in large numbers. It was big, but so was waco, so was Jimmy Jones, so was the last WTC bombing so was pearl harbour.

Simon. The world has changed whatever your disagreement.

It seems to me that Western politicians have realised that the Middle East needs to be sorted out. Why? The oil is going to run out soon. What will happen when that whole region loses it's only means of income? According to most estimates, there are only 30 to 50 years worth of reserves left underground. What will the Arab states rely on then to keep thier people alive? Manufacturing? There is none. Agriculture? There is hardly enough food to support their growing populations without imports as it is. They have nothing but their dwindling reserves fossil fuels that they sell to the West. And if China continues industrialising as fast as it has been recently, those reserves are going to go even quicker.

The Arab regimes in place now haven't provided for their region's future. They have neither the knowledge or the want to do so and their political stances mean that they will never have the capability either. By the West changing the political and sociological foundations now, it could be possible to build nations which will be self sustainable in 30 years time and that can survive without their only present asset of oil.

So what has changed? After 100 years the West has woken up to the fact that if the Middle East isn't sorted out now, in 30 years time, the region will experience famine, poverty and unrest, the likes of which will make the situation in Iraq now look like a daytrip to Disneyland.

Originally posted by Leveller
Simon. The world has changed whatever your disagreement.

It seems to me that Western politicians have realised that the Middle East needs to be sorted out. Why? The oil is going to run out soon. What will happen when that whole region loses it's only means of income? According to most estimates, there are only 30 to 50 years worth of reserves left underground. What will the Arab states rely on then to keep thier people alive? Manufacturing? There is none. Agriculture? There is hardly enough food to support their growing populations without imports as it is. They have nothing but their dwindling reserves fossil fuels that they sell to the West. And if China continues industrialising as fast as it has been recently, those reserves are going to go even quicker.

The Arab regimes in place now haven't provided for their region's future. They have neither the knowledge or the want to do so and their political stances mean that they will never have the capability either. By the West changing the political and sociological foundations now, it could be possible to build nations which will be self sustainable in 30 years time and that can survive without their only present asset of oil.

So what has changed? After 100 years the West has woken up to the fact that if the Middle East isn't sorted out now, in 30 years time, the region will experience famine, poverty and unrest, the likes of which will make the situation in Iraq now look like a daytrip to Disneyland.

Hmmm, Peak Oil eh? Could be but it smells like a red herring that just happened to come along when everyone decided the war was about oil.

So let's say that the dead dinosaurs are running out. Why isn't anyone pushing anything remotely related to alternate fuel sources? How is War the answer? If the U.S. controls the last of the fossil fuels everything will be ok? It just doesn't make sense.

Not saying here that it's not possible I'm just saying that the reaction by people spending $287,630,500,000 on defense doesn't make any sense. These same people have just spent $113,459,211,578 in Iraq and wants another $25,000,000,000. These same people sent Israel $1,697,096,544 for the last 50 years.

And they would probably be the first ones to know about any looming oil crisis (maybe OPEC would be the first but they would know before the public). Yet they come up with the idea to control the alleged last bit o' oil on earth. Then what? Wait for Jesus to return?

"Yes Jesus, we have taken our talents and secured the last remaining oil fields on earth"

I'm just not seeing it but maybe it's my shades.

[quote
Hmmm, Peak Oil eh? Could be but it smells like a red herring that just happened to come along when everyone decided the war was about oil.

So let's say that the dead dinosaurs are running out. Why isn't anyone pushing anything remotely related to alternate fuel sources? How is War the answer? If the U.S. controls the last of the fossil fuels everything will be ok? It just doesn't make sense.


Perhaps it's a case of survival of the fittest for the US. I'm not saying that's justification for the war, just speculating that the US gov might see it as a dog-eat-dog world.

What I'd like to know is what would be the cost & implications of establishing an alternative source of energy? Obviously one problem would be the masses of automobiles that would become redundant, that and an upheaval in international trade. Any thoughts?

ThePrankMonkey Very Beautifully spoken. A man who KNOWS!

Paul spoke: "ignorance and paranoia are potentially as big a threat as terrorism to peace here in the UK."

Absolutely! And so what do us humans have to do? Get a GRIP on it! Instead of wasting our precious time on fear and a useless fear, why don't we realize that we, all of us...like ThePrankMonkey spoke, ARE in control, and if only of our own selves. Each and every individual makes an impression on what goes on in this world of ours, and HOW it goes on.

If all of us were to realize that we in actuality HAVE the power to change all of the bad things that have been spoken of by the fathers, the prophets,... against all odds...and in faith and belief in our OWN selves, then we could most definitely change the way our future is going to be. We could make this a beautiful place instead of a desolate one!

Think about it.

Have faith that you are not the only one desiring this good and wonderful outcome. All we are fighting is our own ignorance. Take your own power up to the line and live your own desires. Then you'll find your friends and they are many. Then you will find power in numbers as well. And then you will find a collective knowledge that will grow and develop our earth into something more WORTH our standards.

Good post Flexipaul

Originally posted by Leveller
The Arab regimes in place now haven't provided for their region's future. They have neither the knowledge or the want to do so and their political stances mean that they will never have the capability either. By the West changing the political and sociological foundations now, it could be possible to build nations which will be self sustainable in 30 years time and that can survive without their only present asset of oil.

So what has changed? After 100 years the West has woken up to the fact that if the Middle East isn't sorted out now, in 30 years time, the region will experience famine, poverty and unrest, the likes of which will make the situation in Iraq now look like a daytrip to Disneyland.

Brilliant! You are a good planner and thinker of the future! Keep thinking like the plans you have been forming and soon there will others be, thinking along the same lines to formulate an actual workable system that just may, perhaps grow a better environment for these folks instead of leave them writhing in poverty and desolation.
You have GOT to realize, that your mind is very powerful tool!