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'I wouldn't be here if not for the NHS': Stephen Hawking defends UK's 'Orwellian' healthcare a

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posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 09:17 AM
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Originally posted by MerigoldWhatever happened to " treat others as you would like to be treated....?"



who says that



To be honest the US system sounds slightly flawed, same ways as the NHS is flawed.

For example, I know of a person who got a tummy tuck carried out on the NHS costing thousands of pounds by using the "mentally stressed" (or whatever the correct term is) approach- this is nothing unusual, and not an isolated case, and to my mind that is theft of "my" taxes

[edit on 13-8-2009 by blueorder]




posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 09:24 AM
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To be succinct;

America. What you do with your healthcare system is your problem and your perogative, and ultimately none of our business. However, please stop slagging off the NHS in Britain. As you can see from this thread, it is not a horror show, orwellian, evil or any other pejorative adjectives.

It may not be perfect, but it mostly works and we like it. Thanks.



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 09:26 AM
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Apologies if this has already been posted, but I find this rather interesting:

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland

source

This is the WHO's ranking of healthcare by country.

Surely that's all anyone needs to know about the benefits of socialised medicine.

The so called richest nation in the world is ranked 37th in healthcare.

I think someone has their priorities wrong, somewhere along the line.



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 09:29 AM
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Originally posted by budski
Apologies if this has already been posted, but I find this rather interesting:

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland

source

This is the WHO's ranking of healthcare by country.

Surely that's all anyone needs to know about the benefits of socialised medicine.

The so called richest nation in the world is ranked 37th in healthcare.

I think someone has their priorities wrong, somewhere along the line.




The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems was last produced in 2000, and the WHO no longer produces such a ranking table, because of the complexity of the task.


as others have said, I wouldn't be setting out much stall in those figures- the US has other complex factors such as the high incidents of gun deaths (which could not be prevented by an amount of free medical care), greater road usage etc


If the US was so bad, why are millions tryin to get there every year, and I'm British!



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 09:29 AM
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Yeah Blue,lifestyle choices for many can lead to an early grave but at least the NHS is there to help and shock people into changing old habits if a trip to hospital is needed.

You only have to see how lack of NHS dentists,reflects on how brits would be if we were over the pond and had no health care plans for whatever reasons.Many here have no dentists and struggle with tooth ache and mouth infections for far too long.

My local dentist is private and it cost 1500 quid to root canal and crown one tooth a couple of years ago.They did a great job but I know friends who complain about thier teeth and cant afford to see the dentist



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 09:34 AM
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Originally posted by noangels
Yeah Blue,lifestyle choices for many can lead to an early grave but at least the NHS is there to help and shock people into changing old habits if a trip to hospital is needed.



I don't think the NHS shocks people into doing things, it would have the opposite effect if you follow, ie, why change, the NHS will always be there for me



You only have to see how lack of NHS dentists,reflects on how brits would be if we were over the pond and had no health care plans for whatever reasons.Many here have no dentists and struggle with tooth ache and mouth infections for far too long.

My local dentist is private and it cost 1500 quid to root canal and crown one tooth a couple of years ago.They did a great job but I know friends who complain about thier teeth and cant afford to see the dentist


don't get me wrong, I am British and I'm used to the NHS so I'm not totally anti social health care, but the NHS is a busted flush, and that example of the person I know receiving thousands of pounds worth of tax money for a tummy tuck is an example of how debased it has become



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 09:44 AM
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reply to post by blueorder
 


OK, will you accept more recent data that is not WHO?
(Sorry Budski, I had posted on Pg 11, not bad for a "Hamster" eh?)

en.wikipedia.org...


Oh and here are the References:
CIA ( Yes, THAT CIA.) 2009

www.cia.gov...


United Nations Study 2006

(Please see page 98 of PDF)

www.un.org...


You were saying ?

Despite the implications of the other opinions you toss about, if you consider the "wealth" in terms of economic status of US, pretty compelling. No? Although some people are confused by FACTS.


[edit on 13-8-2009 by kinda kurious]



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 09:48 AM
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You would be here if you were in AMERICA, where we are required to keep you alive. BAD ARGUMENT, for the Americans maybe good for you over there when they threw you in a PIT and stoned you ... Wait do they still do that any where ??? Where at ... I need to check into COL there.
TRYING TO ARGUE ABOUT THIS BY NOT ARGUING ABOUT THIS SAD !!!



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 09:57 AM
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reply to post by blueorder
 


I'm sorry, but I don't buy that argument about complexity.

It's a handy excuse for the perpetuation of the status quo, and that's all.

The same excuse was used before the formation and invention of the NHS.

The FACT is (and you can see in KK's links above) that the WHO figures are pretty accurate.

I'll tell you what mate, it's OK sticking up for the US system until it affects YOU.

It's always OK until all of a sudden someone is denied coverage for some obscure reason (usually just that the insuarnce don't like paying up) like that which happened to the people who helped during 911, and who now have all sorts of breathing and lung diseases.

Yours is the same argument which perpetuated the obscene banking bonuses - and look where that got us.

Any argument against social healthcare is, IMO, an argument made out of pure misguided selfishness, because people always get more than they put into a system.

We are talking healthcare by corporate decree - and when profits come into the equation, guess who is the first to suffer...

(Thnx KK, us hamsters have to stick together - maybe have us a hamster revolution and throw off the exercise wheel of oppression
)


[edit on 13/8/2009 by budski]



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by JohnnyElohim
That post does not speak to my sources whatsoever.

It's apparent you did not go to all the links and read the entire articles because your points were easily debunked. Nice try at deflection though.


What's apparent is that you lack a basic sense of honesty. I checked your links. Not a single one of them debunks the facts that I stated. I stated a series of statistical facts. If you have your own comments you want to parrot on the significance or lack thereof of those facts, fine. If you have a source that suggests the statistics are wrong, fine. Other wise, please stop it with the dishonest and disrespectful slapfest. High school debaters conduct themselves with more decorum.



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 10:03 AM
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Originally posted by kinda kurious
reply to post by blueorder
 


OK, will you accept more recent data that is not WHO?
(Sorry Budski, I had posted on Pg 11, not bad for a "Hamster" eh?)

en.wikipedia.org...


Oh and here are the References:
CIA ( Yes, THAT CIA.) 2009

www.cia.gov...


United Nations Study 2006

(Please see page 98 of PDF)

www.un.org...


You were saying ?

Despite the implications of the other opinions you toss about, if you consider the "wealth" in terms of economic status of US, pretty compelling. No? Although some people are confused by FACTS.


[edit on 13-8-2009 by kinda kurious]


I'll tell you what I was saying, spare me if I don't rush to join the social care bandwagon because of a 4 year life expectancy difference between the US and the top (Japan, leaving aside tiny macau and andorra)- I mean it is well established that Americans are prone to obesity, they have higher standards of living and fast food consumption and this factor alone (without other national differences such as gun deaths) will lead to the greater likelihood of earlier death- it is hardly a massive difference for crying out loud, all these people buying into the harem scarem stories about the US, and getting confused by FACTS

[edit on 13-8-2009 by blueorder]



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by budski

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that argument about complexity.

It's a handy excuse for the perpetuation of the status quo, and that's all.


[edit on 13/8/2009 by budski]



You need to direct that towards the WHO then, I put that bit about "complexity" in bold because it was a DIRECT quotye from them, so if you think they are making excuses for "perpetuation of the status quo" then contact them



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 10:24 AM
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reply to post by blueorder
 


Nope, if you are going to argue that the complexity angle is made by WHO then you need to quote it properly, and attribute it properly, otherwise it just smells of giving oneself wriggle room.

Perhaps you'd like to address the figures posted in the links by Kinda Kurious.

A belief in "Social Darwinism" or eugenics is the only REAL reason to oppose social medicine - evrything else is just so much corporate bull.

The problem is that people believe the corporate propaganda, when it has been clearly shown, time after time that corporate healthcare does not, can not, and will not work, ever.

There are countless examples of people being refused coverage on the flimsiest of pretexts, when the truth is that it wasn't cost effective for the insurance company.

A common tactic is to delay the process, and go through all the appeals process, and even through the courts, because chances are that by the time it comes to that, the person will have died and they don't need to pay out.

There's even a formula for it, for certain diseases which require very expensive treatment, where if cost of coverage > cost of appeals/litigation, then deny coverage.

In some companies, coverage is nearly always denied at the initial stage, because a certain percentage of people will immediately give up and not go through the appeal process.

That's corporate healthcare for you.

It's all about the bottom line.



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 10:24 AM
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I'm glad that someone is talking sense about the NHS in response to the ludicrous attacks on it from our friends across the pond. Pity they had to be famous really.

I heard about and watched this very nicely marketed propaganda video yesterday.



Aside from having a giggle at the 'soft focus sentimentality' and the fact it all stems down to this 'pay or stay ill' mentality-I am quite shocked at the lies & depths that the lobbyists in the US have sunk to in order to protect the gravy train.

The NHS, like every other health care system in the world is flawed. The principles on which it was founded and the service itself however, are something that we Brits are very proud of. Anyone who has the audacity to criticise the service without ever having had first hand experience of living with such a system, is insulting the very people who work their a**es off everyday to help people.

I don't mind my taxes being spent on saving somebody's life. I don't mind paying a fraction of a weeks course of antibiotics for someone with flu. Flu sucks
In my country Wales, we don't even pay for prescription drugs at the pharmacy - nobody does. It comes out of taxes - covered. It hasn't made a difference at all to my mildly mediocre earnings. I don't mind paying taxes to keep my nation healthy - seems like a good idea to me in the long run. That is not socialism nor it is not communism, which tend to get confused a lot here at ATS for reasons I can't understand. It's called humanity.

I do mind my government paying for rubbish we don't need or want, like Trident and the Olympics
So I'm glad that they provide a health system which ensures I get what I need at least. It is not left up to me to pay ludicrous amounts of money when I get sick. It's not 'Orwellian', it's actually in place to make sure that everybody has a decent shot at having a good quality of life.

There is no conspiracy unfortunately, no matter how much some want to peddle one. You believe in your right to bear arms, we believe it is a fundamental right to receive health care and education as a principle, however 'flawed' you deem the implementation. The NHS is one of the best things we have and I don't regard the word of somebody saying different who doesn't even live here as anything but utterly redundant, we have private care too so we can see both sides.

I loved that somebody said it was selfish to want someone else to pay for you. We all pay our way here thanks, and we think that is beneficial to society.

By that definition what isn't selfish...that you should live but a baby should die if the parents could not afford cover, that's selfless?? No actually that sounds like a Sociopathic inability to empathize with the pain of others, and having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them. Hmm, a bit like health insurance then.

I broke my foot last year. I waited an hour at A+E. Another hour for my X Ray and consultation, and then another hour for my cast. 3 hours wait, or a ludicrous bill...I'm glad I have the 'evil NHS' ta very much!

I wouldn't usually care about what the US does. But when you accuse our health professionals, who work just as rigorously as yours, of being sub-standard it really does make me angry. The thousands who work in the NHS do an amazing, 'above and beyond' service to the British people. This dis-respect just turns my stomach.

I love the US. I don't get why you need assault rifles but you don't need affordable health care, but I think it's a great country - We are very different, in so many ways, but damn you guys make a good burger and are one of the friendliest nations I've ever visited. If you don't mind paying through the nose - fine, but don't spit all over the people here who work in the NHS by slandering the work they do just because you are facing the prospect of change. Throw the toys out of the pram elsewhere please.



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 10:28 AM
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Originally posted by budski

Nope, if you are going to argue that the complexity angle is made by WHO then you need to quote it properly, and attribute it properly, otherwise it just smells of giving oneself wriggle room.



I quoted it exactly, word for word- copied and pasted from the link yer b chum gave, take it up with them and talk about "wriggling"



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 10:30 AM
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Originally posted by blackmesa
I love the US. I don't get why you need assault rifles but you don't need affordable health care, but I think it's a great country



I'm not American, but as far as I am aware it is not law to own one of these and taxes are not used to buy one for every person- just here to help



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 10:33 AM
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reply to post by blueorder
 


No, you put it in bold, that is not correct use of the quote function and is against the site T&C as failure to properly attribute work to the author of the work.

Otherwise known as plagiarism, unless you quote properly and link to source.

You can try and wriggle out of this by using deflections all you want, I'm afarid it's not going to work with me, as you should know.

Now would you care to explain the meaning of the terminology "b chum" which you used in your last post to me?



[edit on 13/8/2009 by budski]



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 10:42 AM
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Originally posted by budski
No, you put it in bold, that is not correct use of the quote function and is against the site T&C as failure to properly attribute work to the author of the work.

Otherwise known as plagiarism, unless you quote properly and link to source.

You can try and wriggle out of this by using deflections all you want, I'm afarid it's not going to work with me, as you should know.

Now would you care to explain the meaning of the terminology "b chum" which you used in your last post to me?

[edit on 13/8/2009 by budski]



The previous poster provided a link

I included that link in my post


and put that DIRECT QUOTE WORD FOR WORD IN BOLD FROM THE LINK THE PREVIOUS POSTER HAD PROVIDED AND WHICH I INCLUDED IN MY LINK- so no distortion, check the link, you can see I have not done any tampering and I await your apology


b hit accidentally



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 10:48 AM
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reply to post by blackmesa
 


Here, blackmesa, the YT link. You have to remove everything left of the "=" sign, including that!!!




posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 10:50 AM
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reply to post by blueorder
 


Whatever - you break the rules, you deal with the consequences.

This is still not addressing the points raised by KK in which he posted the CIA's own figures for social healthcare, not to mention the UN

Here, just for you I'll post the links again, so that you can properly address them without recourse to the red herring of (ahem) "complexity"

www.cia.gov...
As you can see, this ranks the UK at 36 and the US at 50.

Please take somoe time to peruse this United Nations publication, and then give us your thoughts on the issues raised which stand in direct opposition to the case you have put forth thus far.



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