Is The Devil God and God The Devil?

Interesting topic and there are arguments for both sides. Problem I have with all of this is that the 100% pure and simple fact that we are all born to know right from wrong, good from bad. Its what keeps the balance.
I think God knew there had to be a contrast not to test anyone but to keep balance.
I think the bigger and more illistrated question is.................why?

Why create humanity?

Why create Evil in the first place?

Why let people evolve into what it has become today?

Pure and simple........WHY??

I know that there is a higher power even if it is what we typically reffer to as God. Anything or anyone that has the ability to creat and let that creation evlove is that higher power. But one thing is for absolute certain and that is we will die. How we live our lives says who we are whether you were born yesterday or 2000 years ago but I think all of mankinds questions will be answered when our sprit goes to that other place and it will all make sence of why things are the way they are and why we were chosen to live in this time.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Some serious distortion on the way God feels about women because of the Greek translation of the Old Testament from the Hebrew. It reflects a later attitude and the unscrupulous translators made intentional misinterpretations to reflect their own bias against women.

If that were true it would have been exposed by now and more accurate books would have been released.

Secondly, even if that is true, which i doubt, you are saying the majority of christians are following an innacurate translation, that could mean the entire book is flawed then and christianity as we know it is nothing close to what it really was.

Thirdly, even the vatican has admitted that church elders have re-written the hebrew bible for decades. So perhaps you've never even read the actual bible.

Before christ was on the cross it was a lamb on the cross.
The entire crucifixation is a hoax.
Probably to humanize christ to make people think he did so much for you.

I have an idea, it is inspired by a lot of other ideas that I compiled together.

It goes like this, a long time ago, humans were advanced beyond what we were today. Then an even more advanced alien species came and tried to control us, the war raged on and there was one man, a scientist who thought up of technology that could potentially defeat these aliens. It was necesary because the humans were on the losing end. The project held by this man failed and the aliens were victorious. The scientist's name was Lucifer and as we know, the victors write history. So the aliens, we would now know today as god and his angels, took over the planet and brainwashed humans back to the stone age. Today we are still under control of these aliens and the god that they painstakingly forced into our minds.

Its just an idea. I know it sounds silly, but hey, who knows.

The Devil is a symbolic image for your own earthly natures. It is the adversary that tempts your spiritual nature. You are a part of both...the Devil (earthly body) and God (spiritual body). We are to transform our Earthly natures with our own will to live a spiritual life here on Earth, in the land of temptations...in the land of gnashing of teeth...in the land of having your own devils advocate in your own mind.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by theyreadmymind
I think I would like you to show me where this freewill is in the bible. I find the whole free will argument highly suspect.

Verses 22-26 Timothy
They are slaves to the worst of task-masters; he is the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

Children of disobedience?
As an adult I am my own master..... well ok my wife is

But that's besides the point
Just because I don't do exactly what the biblical god says I have been caught in the devil's net? Pulease.

Same thing with homosexuals, it's their freedom to be in same sex relationships, but the bible says that makes them evil while the devil would allow this freedom to be given to them.

Secondly since Christianity is based on paganism, then wouldn't the worshipped one naturally be the devil? I mean isnt' that common sense?

Also since God doesn't give you freedom and the Devil is the opposite of God, then wouldn't the Devil give you freedom?


[edit on 11-8-2009 by ModernAcademia]

Christianity is not based upon paganism, that is a lie told by pagans to try to deceive...looks like it worked.

Freewill in the Bible:

Ezra 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.


Treatment of women:

1Corinthians 14:
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

Paul states that the lessering of women came about by man's laws, and God created both male and female and talks to them both.



Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Adam and Eve got kicked out of the Garden. They could have refused to eat from The Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil and satan would have had no power. The devil only has whatever power we give him. Therefore they were kicked out of the Garden. Man just got worse from there until God was sick of it and was going to end of, but Noah got a second chance, only this time, the world was changed, and man still blew it.


I have questioned whether or not God and satan were one in the same. The thought of them being a divorced couple has also crossed my mind. I also thought that if satan was the ruler of evil, that hell would just be a party.

God took me to hell and showed me hell and the flames. And it is no party. satan was an angel who's pride got the best of him and he was damned forever. Why would God allow the devil to be, by opinion, all I can say is that what is the point of free will if there is nothing to go about freely. God is not going to put it into someone's mind to commit sin, so therefore He would need someone like satan to tempt man. But satan can not make man do anything.

I doubt God is a woman, because He is always refered to as He, and He also came to earth in the form of a man. Life comes from man by the way. Get pregnat without sperm, I do not see it happening.


There is nothing in the Bible that claims that God is all loving. He is free to forgive and loves those that love Him.

Exodus 20:
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Originally posted by deprogrammer
reply to post by ModernAcademia

 

no...this is so wrong...every creature knows right and wrong in the
Universe and you are buying a lie and not being sold a lie.

yup, has anyone brought up project blue beam? lol this guy just nailed what i think that program is all about/The U.N.

look it up....youtube nasa blue beam project. a lot of facts out there on this one.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Being #1:

This being demands that you worship him. Or else suffer.
This being demands that you tell others about him and his rules.
This being tells you that you have no freedom.
This being tells that you have no independent thought.
This being tells you that the devil (which is an example of freedom of anything) is under his control.
This being tells you to do millions of things. To get rid of your thoughts and only think of him.
This being tells you to surrender you WHOLE self to him.

Being #2:

This being tells that you can be free from being #1


QUESTION:

Which one is God? The Devil?

And here are some verses that would make it seem as though we don't have free will.

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

So what about people who believe. Do they believe of their own free will?
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I have freewill to do whatever I choose. I lived a long time living in my own will; smoking, drinking, being lustful and ignoring/denying God. When the Lord called me, I still had the option to ignore Him and live my will. But, I choose to surender my will for His will. Do you make a plate of food and see what it wants to happen to it? Or do you make plate of food and eat it. God created us to worship Him. That is very true. But, He wants us to worship Him, because we choose to do so. If you had a love potion and made someone love you against their will, the relationship would get old after a while. But when you find someone who loves you because they choose to love you, there seems to be no relationship better. Heaven is going to be the greatest experience ever. Ears have not heard, eyes have no seen the greatness that awaits. So if you feel like you are giving up so much by giving up your life to worship God. It is nothing compared to what you give up by choosing your life over God.


One more analogy:

You may not think so, but America is the freest country in the world. It has been for some time. And yes, that is changing. The world is slowing becoming a single world government which is about control. (By the way, one world government, totally Biblical...) Anyway, America is the freest nation at the moment. Or many Cannada, or maybe it's England? I do not know, I live in America. I can walk down the street and go to a store and buy things freely. I can go to school (or I could if I had the money) I can go to church whereever I want. Or not go. We as Americans have that freedom. But, we can not go up to someone and shoot them in the face. Adultry is against the law. Stealing is against the law.

My point is that true freedom is in Jesus, what are you giving up? He has some simple laws as the creator of the universe. He is the KING OF KINGS. What is so great about the world that you can not take time to thank God for everything He made?

reply to post by daysofnoe


Or maybe you just perceive you have free will. I do know that people think they have free will, but I was asking for biblical arguments.

So basically, as the bible would put it, before God came and transformed you, you were "walking after your own lusts." Meet the carrot and the stick.

[edit on 13-8-2009 by theyreadmymind]

Hello Wise One's,

There is no Devil!!!

This was a made up to scare, control and convert the mass's (Pagon's), the true story you can find in the origanal version of the old testament.

The Sumerian's were the one's that wrote the Old testament (man's history), being the first people with written skills at that time, it was later the story's were coverted into Hebrew and from there grossley messed up over time.

Now looking at the old testament, we can still see what the anciant Sumarian's were telling us, all we have to do is read between the line's and the christan church's dogma.

There was Two God's!!!!!

Two Brother's!!!!

The Sumerian written records go back to about 3700BC, and they tell us the gods in question were brothers. It was written, the storm god the god of wrath who eventually became known as "JEHOVAH" was called Enlil or 'Ilu-kur-gal' (meaning 'Ruler of the mountain') and his brother, who became ADON, The Lord, was called 'Enki', 'Enki' means 'Archetype'.

Now this is how the penny droped for me wise one's, in the old testament Genesis, if read with in mind that there are two gods, one just called "God" and the other called "Lord God" it is clearly that there are two.

Genesis: 3 / 22,
Then the Lord God siad, "Be-hold, the man has become like one of "US", knowing good and evil;

Now this was Enki and Enlil (the brothers) talking about 'Atabba' (Adam) having eaten from the garden. As the true story go's is, Enki the Good God told Adam and Eve to eat from the garden as he was there Father, when Enlil found out he was so mad he banished them.

Well there it is Wise Ones, just read between the lines, it's all there for all to see.

Oh, thats if you can see, and you are free from the church's Dogma......

Blessed Be: Kernoonos.........

A number of Gnostic texts (most of them, in fact) spoke of a being they called the "Demiurge" that was an evil being responsible for the creation of the physical world and the imprisonment of our souls within it. Above the Demiurge is the "real" god, who is good but basically distant from our cosmos. A big part of Gnostic religion involved trying to get in contact somehow with the "real" God.

While the Demiurge was not specifically identified with the Devil or Satan in most cases, he was certainly evil, and some Gnostics said that those who worshipped Jehovah were actually worshiping the Demiurge. One branch of Gnosticism involved the concept of "Anthropos," or humanity, as a kind of manifestation or emination of the higher, "real" and good God. That is, the existence of humanity can be seen as the good God's having "punched a hole" in the world created by the Demiurge and manifesting himself here in the form of mankind to battle evil. Through this concept, the oneness of man and God (or at least man as a kind of emination of God) closer to Eastern conceptions can be noted. It also gives man and his free will a powerful role as a manifestation of the true, good God, and defines man's purpose here in this world as being to fight the Demiurge's evil.

Manichaeism, which was once a massively popular world religion stretching from North Africa to China and Siberia, adopted similar although not identical ideas. According to Manicheanism, matter was evil and the good in man was a kind of "light" or soul imprisioned in matter. The goal was to escape the material world and re-join the world of pure light. The cosmos was conceived as a kind of gigantic "purifaction machine" by which the light trapped in matter could be released and returned to its source. Interesting stuff.



[edit on 8/13/09 by silent thunder]

The Cathars believed that the god of the old testament was the devil This is from Wikipedia:
Many embraced the Gospel of John as their most sacred text, and many rejected the traditional view of the Old Testament — proclaiming that the God of the Old Testament was really the devil, or creative demiurge. They proclaimed that there was a higher God — the True God — and Jesus was or is the messenger. These are views similar to those of Marcion.

Of course the Catholic church murdered all of them, in the 1500's in France.

its not about good and evil

its about the fact without asking the very questions we do

what would be the point?

I mean if we was all EVIL what would be the point??
If we was all GOOD what would be the point

Both are just paramaters in gods lillte masterplan we call life..

Why?

because one has to LEARN in order to understand...

this is not a game, never has been and never will be.

here is the sad part

the bible is a reflection of YOU.. your own doing.. how would one understand himself? if he does not even know what or who he is?

To be guided is not the same as to be shown...

You did not ask the question my friend GOD DID

I will show you

When You and the universe was created at the same time..

What came first? The question!

So from this little point in time and space we can understand our role..

good and evil are one of the same thing a choice..

he made it that way because thats how we work!

now.. Not knowing is the reason for knowing "sounds silly" but your not god... so its logical.

Neeeewaaayy

point is..

Heaven and hell is on earth, because we make it SO

people for get the gift they was given was LIFE it self

I suggest people wake up to this fact be for you end up like T rex and his mates...

not a good thing that u know..

Originally posted by hypattia
The Cathars believed that the god of the old testament was the devil This is from Wikipedia:
Many embraced the Gospel of John as their most sacred text, and many rejected the traditional view of the Old Testament — proclaiming that the God of the Old Testament was really the devil, or creative demiurge. They proclaimed that there was a higher God — the True God — and Jesus was or is the messenger. These are views similar to those of Marcion.

Of course the Catholic church murdered all of them, in the 1500's in France.

Some consider the Cathars the last of the Gnostics and/or the Westernmost expression of Manicheanism....there may be some truth to that in that those ideas never really stopped floating around...other scholars think the Cathars were more of a spontaneous or indegenous phenomenon.

I read an interesting book about the Albigensian Crusade against the Cathars last year in which the author argued that in a way there never actually were any "Cathars." According to this theory, the "crusade" (mass murder you mention) was more political than anything else... a papal legate was murdered in southern France and Pope Innocent III's wanted revenge and to extend his power. He partnered with certain local nobility and concocted the idea that the villages between Montpelier and Bordeaux riddled with heretics. In return for slaughtering these supposed "heretics," the nobility were given the perogative of grabbing land and they reacted enthusiastically. To justify this slughter and wholesale robbery doctrinally (has the theory), the Vatican reached back into its musty old archives and used records on old "heresies" like the Gnostics to complety concoct a newm fictional "heresy" they called "Catharism." Since almost all sources on "Catharicism" are anti-Cathar propaganda issued by the Vatican, argues the author, they cannot be taken seriously. However, he does note a tradition of so-called "cunning folk" in that area dating back perhaps to pagan ideas, who lived very austere lives with their own unique form of mystical Christianity. Some aspects of this, he admits, resembled Gnosticism or Maniceanism.

Don't know which if a ny or all is/are the truth but its all fascinating stuff, isn't it?

As I've been a baptized christian for 11 years now, since yesterday after I read 1.Corinthean 5-7, at least I thought to be one, I'd like to say something on this topic. just some thoughts.
Freimaurer (Skull and bones and all the other satanics) read the bible.
jesus loves it if you are cold or hot, if you are either prisoner of the devils system or prisoner of His system.
there is no free will. you always have to do what the lords will is, or you will be punished and excomunized into the devils hands...how practical...as the devil is slave of god.
then there is one figure in the bible which is even more evil than the devil. I really haven't found any other figure which is hated by the devil or god as much as this: the whore babylon. this is fighted in all times until the future, until she is destroyed and will never be found again.
has anybody from the christians told you what in the bible you can read? such things like there should be no relationship between men and women?
1. Corinthean 5-7.
they are just fishing and not telling you the whole truth. and this is the worst lie, to tell people half truths.
but I am rejecting/refusing with all my strength of a doll, to become part of the satanic system, which ist in the sterotype biblical god-devil system the same stuff.
it's a very schizophrenic system we live in, I believe now, as I was schizophrenic since I had a jesus-contact on drugs, before over 12 years.
I do not want to be part of bitch babylon too. but I'm relly frightened if you love the good as free will, and not to be a stupid slave, and all this stuff, and love love, there you will be put by all into this file.
I am very suspected to all sense of being now.
I just feel like a doll which always has to suffer, because it likes the good and the love. we have hormons and our body is built for sexuality, but we should not have a wife? we should not have a others than virgins? we should not love divorced women?
Perhaps I am the evil, but if so, I'm still just a doll in all the system.
my christian sister told me that god creates people who shall be damned, because just of the "holy" ones who shall stand in a better light.
the devil is god? I do not know.
the clean people is all clean, but if you read the bible, god is therefor not clean.
we all know the differnce between good and evil? I'm never sure when I read the bible, but I think today we really know but shall not.

there is no other way for me now than believing in the good, as a state of my knowledgement.
But I'm frightened because of my search for truth, and my believe of rightousness and my belive in the good as I think of it, I will disappear one day from the gamefield.
this is not wanted.

lost_misfit

reply to post by ModernAcademia

If that were true it would have been exposed by now and more accurate books would have been released.
Secondly, even if that is true, which i doubt, you are saying the majority of christians are following an innacurate translation, that could mean the entire book is flawed then and christianity as we know it is nothing close to what it really was.

I found articles by doing a google search using the words, "intentional mistranslation". I spent a couple of days using different variations on these search parameters. I ran across a few interesting articles and they seem to all involve how women were viewed. Unfortunately I did not save all the links because I was actually looking for something else. But there is some serious study being done on this issue but apparently it is not on the top of any church's list of priorities, to fix the lowed status of women.


[edit on 17-8-2009 by jmdewey60]

i have always wondered who the devil could be and i came to the conclusion that the only person it could be is god. Think about it whilst god is in heaven everything is a-ok... now imagine GOD WANTS TO TAKE A vacation on a planet he created and discovered what had been a paradise has been turned into hell itself by humans that he created. NOW GOD being in a human body is driven by the emotions of the body and you can bet he isnt going to very happy now is he? and with the power of god as his disposal for all extent and purposes he will be the devil as he turns our world upside down removing humans from the planet so the planet can have at least be free of the human scourge...Gods love is eternal and if people think gods love only extends to humans then.......

this love is the point, which just meets living beings on earth if they obey him, nothing else, we humans shall not love, neither a woman, nor things in the world like your computer and so on with which you could express yourself, nor our family and friends more than him who doesn't show himself to you in full truth ever.
love? satan also doesn't want love. just perverted sex and love to mammon.
love?!

just war here on earth no place for love.

[edit on 17-8-2009 by lost_misfit]