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Is The Devil God and God The Devil?

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posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 03:56 PM
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I would like to discuss this topic

I mostly am talking of the bible here, but also all abrahamic religions, but mostly the bible.

In the bible, God resembles big brother wayyyy too much, actually more like a genocidal big brother with no respect for women whatsoever.
Sounds pretty evil to me.

The Devil however seems to speak of freedom and rights.

I already know that the bible is just to fool many, however...

Is making the devil the devil and god God one of the things they are trying to fool you WITH?




posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 04:14 PM
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Very interesting question.. is the devil God and is God the devil... well according to the Bible, Satan cannot act upon mankind without Gods permission. So it seems the ultimate responsiblity always goes back to God. So if you think Satan did something terrible to you, then you can thank/curse God for letting it happen. If you dont believe what I say, read the book of Job.

From a philosophical viewpoint though, and removing the whole Satan cannot act without Gods permission, you should look at them as parental figures. Is it better to have a parent to tell you no and smack your hand when you reach for a hot stove burner? Or is it better for your parent to encourage you to put your hand on a hot stove burner?



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 04:20 PM
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I'm not really sure about the persona of either [entity?], but sometimes I like to entertain the idea that while satan believes he is acting on his own accord, it is actually god who set up the circumstances to induce this [reaction?].

Maybe to test us? I dunno. I feel as though us humans are more important than satan will ever be.



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 04:24 PM
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reply to post by ModernAcademia
 

How about you show us where "the devil" shows concern for liberty in the Bible.

Thing is, as a Christian, I pray to the creator of existance. I have never seen him, at least not that I can remember, I have have no idea what he looks like. I don't know much about him. It wouldn't matter if what you say is true, as I direct my prayers to the creator without knowing who he is, exactly.

I am confident He , the Creator, God, the Lord, whoever he is, understands that it is to Him that I direct my prayer and worship.



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 04:24 PM
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Who are they? To expand, who are the people you are referring to as "they" in the context to try to fool you.

The reason I ask is because if the Bible is meant to fool you to the real truth, where is the frame of reference to the real truth. Only if you started cross referencing other stories would you have anything to base it on.

I'm still not getting the point across, I feel.

OK. God and the Devil are two abstract objects in that you can't affect them in any tangible way. In order to believe in them, you basically have to believe that the Bible is true. There is a God and there is a Devil.

Now if you say that the Bible isn't true and that God is evil and the Devil is good, you've just contradicted yourself. You're being introduced to the concept of God and the Devil by a frame of reference and then stating that the frame of reference is in fact false.

To what end would it be to anyone's benefit to have you believe in the Bible the way it is written as compared to the opposite?

If someone wants to make money off your belief systems, they will just say "give us money because it benefits X and you will be looked on with favor for doing so." where X equals whatever you believe in. God, Devil, Jedi or whatever.

Other than you, the only two other parties that are directly affected by your beliefs ultimately are God and the Devil.

Are you getting what I'm saying?

Let's say you're worshiping God in name and everything that goes with him and you stand against the Devil. Let's say you're wrong and it's the opposite way. What now?

I'd like to be able to talk about this in length, but I'm not sure it's coming across. Maybe someone else can expand.



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by ModernAcademia
I would like to discuss this topic

I mostly am talking of the bible here, but also all abrahamic religions, but mostly the bible.

In the bible, God resembles big brother wayyyy too much, actually more like a genocidal big brother with no respect for women whatsoever.
Sounds pretty evil to me.

The Devil however seems to speak of freedom and rights.

I already know that the bible is just to fool many, however...

edited just to add= I've been drinking for the last 7 hours so don't expect any worthwhile contributions from me lol

Is making the devil the devil and god God one of the things they are trying to fool you WITH?



Just to play Devil's/God's advocate here. If God is our father then surely him monitoring us is nothing more than parental concern for his offspring. The devil may seem to promote freedom, but freedom to do what? Kill? rape? fart? Questioning God 101 must surely start with "if God created everything, knowing everything, why did he create such a powerful being that he knew would be intent on destroying us". That'sthe one tht puzzles me.

[edit on 11-8-2009 by shedhead]



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 04:37 PM
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reply to post by WickettheRabbit
 


I think I understand what you are saying.

Problem is that there are ancient, extra biblical, references to the devil and the Lord.

A perfect example, given the topic, would be gnostic texts.



[edit on 11-8-2009 by cavscout]



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 04:47 PM
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reply to post by cavscout
 


Thanks, but still those gnostic texts and other apocrypha are still based on the Bible. It's still the frame of reference.

It's like saying what if Luke Skywalker really is a Sith Lord and we've been deceived this whole time!

At that point you are saying that George Lucas has lied to us...but the George is the one who invented the story, so how could it be a lie? It is as it written.



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 04:51 PM
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reply to post by ModernAcademia
 


no...this is so wrong...every creature knows right and wrong in the
Universe and you are buying a lie and not being sold a lie.



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 04:55 PM
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Originally posted by ModernAcademia
I would like to discuss this topic

I mostly am talking of the bible here, but also all abrahamic religions, but mostly the bible.

In the bible, God resembles big brother wayyyy too much, actually more like a genocidal big brother with no respect for women whatsoever.
Sounds pretty evil to me.

The Devil however seems to speak of freedom and rights.

I already know that the bible is just to fool many, however...

Is making the devil the devil and god God one of the things they are trying to fool you WITH?

I think you might have messed that one up. God is all about freewill. The Devil takes advantage of God allowing freewill.

If you were a practicing Christian, your original post would of been an example of falling into what Lucifer sells. You pretty much bought into his sales pitch.

No offense intended.

[edit on 11-8-2009 by Pathos]



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 04:58 PM
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The whole idea of freedom is a word that has been abused by the U.S - certainly has done its role though.

It seems to me that humans do not like absolute freedom. We enjoy living in a partially controlled environment.

So, while you may attribute "freedom" to the devil, which is somewhat true, it does not mean this freedom you speak of is better than the control god has.

Catch my drift?



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 04:59 PM
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reply to post by Pathos
 


I think I would like you to show me where this freewill is in the bible. I find the whole free will argument highly suspect.



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 05:37 PM
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what a bloody great question!!!

I mean for me i dunno coz im not a god basher kinda guy in that respect.. so i dunno

but! leaving out god and his little fallen angle "like it is now" i would say that we "humans" and i did say this be for in another thread.. we are god "good" and evil "satan" at the same time..

In all my life i have seen and read some mind bending stuff as im sure you have "hence this topic" ..

But because im not so sure on "god" or the bible.. I kinda see humans as one of the same thing.. I mean look at our world? lets face it., its kinda crap.. But then again what is the other side?? "i dunno" utopia?

seems all wacked out and pointless if you ask me..lol

meh neways seens im bablin on i think its a great question to ask and in some ways i think you are right.. I mean check this...

God : Im bored.. think ill make a universe
God : Ok done.. mm lets make a planet with some "things on it"
God : ok got that sorted.. Now just so i can have a lafff ill make the devil..??
God : ok got that sorted.. Now i will sit back pay no attention for a bit coz im busy making universes n crap..

The Devil : hey dad what am i meant to be doing?

God : stop bothering me .. in fact ill tell you what you go down to earth untill im not busy and corrup man who i just made

The Devil : but that makes no bloody sens??

God : yeah but i made you so shut up and live with it

Man : wtf am i doing here?
God : dont ask im not telling you
Man : your kidding right?
God : shut up here i just made eve go have a lafff.....
Man : oh nice thanks but wats up with the tree and the snake?
God : well you know i like to have fun.,, I made the snake and it talks!
Man : huh?
God : stop asking questions i know it all.. "trust me im god"
Man : ok fair enuff but the snake fing just told me to munch on this apple thing over yonder
God : well ofcourse he did IM GOD i made him do it "ironic"

So is the devil really god? Most probably lol and if hes not?

seems like a right jerk ... Monty phython style



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 07:02 PM
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I believe the apple to be enlightenment.

God does not want you to figure stuff out on your own, just know it's god's will.

What does god do for man?

Loves him?

Would you give your child a world free of sin if you could?

Well he can, and he doesn't.

Why?

He want's us to play a game of temptation?

Would you make your child play a game of temptation that if they lost would doom their soul eternally?

Why would god do that to his children?

If someone played a life or death game with their kids on earth, would you consider them evil?

[edit on 11-8-2009 by breakingdradles]



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 07:16 PM
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Originally posted by Pathos
If you were a practicing Christian, your original post would of been an example of falling into what Lucifer sells. You pretty much bought into his sales pitch.

No offense intended.


Well... if I were a practicing atheist I would laugh at the thought of a practicing chrisitan telling me the bible sold me.


But I see your point
Then again, I think you are mentioning a part and not a whole.

If practising christians really practised christianity they would be way more rapists in the world today



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by theyreadmymind
I think I would like you to show me where this freewill is in the bible. I find the whole free will argument highly suspect.


Verses 22-26 Timothy
They are slaves to the worst of task-masters; he is the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

Children of disobedience?
As an adult I am my own master..... well ok my wife is

But that's besides the point
Just because I don't do exactly what the biblical god says I have been caught in the devil's net? Pulease.

Same thing with homosexuals, it's their freedom to be in same sex relationships, but the bible says that makes them evil while the devil would allow this freedom to be given to them.

Secondly since Christianity is based on paganism, then wouldn't the worshipped one naturally be the devil? I mean isnt' that common sense?

Also since God doesn't give you freedom and the Devil is the opposite of God, then wouldn't the Devil give you freedom?


[edit on 11-8-2009 by ModernAcademia]



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 07:37 PM
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Well done, OP.

Your eyes are open.

You have a brave mind, and don't ever let fear cloud it again.



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 07:46 PM
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They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity---for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him (2 Peter 2:19).

If a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him, then aren't all practising christians slaves? You can show so much logic to hardcore practising christians but they will always be avid bible-goers.


Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? (Romans 6:16).

But it's only practising christians that obey God to a slave-like extent.
Those that want freedoms aren't slaves to the devil, they just care about their freedoms. So isn't the Bible itself acknowledging that practising christians are nothing more than mere slaves?

It seems that for practising christians true freedom can only be attained through the abandonment of their God, or else live a life in mental imprisonement.

Seems to be that all abrahamic religions were written by military generals of some sort. They are manuals on how to achieve military obedience.



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by cavscout
reply to post by ModernAcademia
 

How about you show us where "the devil" shows concern for liberty in the Bible.

Thing is, as a Christian, I pray to the creator of existance. I have never seen him, at least not that I can remember, I have have no idea what he looks like. I don't know much about him. It wouldn't matter if what you say is true, as I direct my prayers to the creator without knowing who he is, exactly.

I am confident He , the Creator, God, the Lord, whoever he is, understands that it is to Him that I direct my prayer and worship.




God would be far more likely to be a 'she' than a 'he' in my opinion due to the fact that it is the females who give birth....but that's by the by anyway as I'm definitely an unbeliever.



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 11:23 PM
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Some serious distortion on the way God feels about women because of the Greek translation of the Old Testament from the Hebrew. It reflects a later attitude and the unscrupulous translators made intentional misinterpretations to reflect their own bias against women. It is rather unfair to judge God based on a highly flawed view that later translators were all to happy to copy. If a person would spend some time examining the Hebrew text, one could bring themself into a higher appreciation of God.


[edit on 11-8-2009 by jmdewey60]



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