The Robot Will Never Be As Smart As A Human

reply to post by open_eyeballs

I dont thik instinct comes directly from the brain...can you prove it does?

Certainly not, but then I'm the one on the sidelines.

Also, you are thinking of intelligence as one dimensional, or only having to do with tbrain capacity and thinking power...im saying you cant be human intelligent without all the charactersistics humans posses...that, is its appendages, senses, its emotions, its spirituality...all these things combined (amongst other factors) give humans its intelligence...

I dont see whow any robot could ever contain all these things...besides in the movies...

I was thinking if they exactly duplicated a human brain in a computer like they are trying to do with the blue brain project. However, I don't know how precise they are intending on getting. I don't know if they would actually try to copy instincts or anything like that. That was a good point to bring up. So I couldn't really answer any questions of that nature. That is a good question for them or someone knowledgable.

But I think you have to look at people who are born with no arms, no legs, maybe without vision but maybe with the ability to hear and talk. Ask yourself if they can be intelligent. If you can come to see them as intelligent or even very intelligent, even though they don't have the luxury of the full range of human experiences, then I have no reason to believe why a brain in a computer with some ability to communicate couldn't be at least as intelligent as a human.

[edit on 12-8-2009 by theyreadmymind]

reply to post by theyreadmymind


just wanted to make on elast point...

I posted this as an edit to my last post..

Also, you are thinking of intelligence as one dimensional, or only having to do with tbrain capacity and thinking power...im saying you cant be human(ly) intelligent without all the charactersistics humans posses...that is its appendages, senses, its emotions, its spirituality...all these things combined (amongst other factors) give humans its intelligence...

I dont see whow any robot could ever contain all these things...besides in the movies...
and robots always make for a cool movie

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
Again, its not about the computer side of it that I believe makes it impossible...

Please read my post above. Maybe it explains my position a tad better??

Or did you not read the OP or the thread at all?

I knew some people would get up in arms about such a post...after all folks it is just an opinion...

I am willing to bet my house and dog you dont see a robot anywhere even close with the capabilities of a human in your or my lifetime...

I won't blame you for being uninformed. Most people don't follow the news I follow, most people's heads get fuzzy when reading about bleeding edge technology due to the jargonization of technology.

Still, when talking to me, it's important to know that disruptive technology's ARE my hobby... I read voraciously on the topic.

Supersensors and Labs on a chip

Memristors and AGI

Graphene, Graphane, Conductivity

DNA Origami

Cell on a Chip
Running Robot

Modular self-repairing robotics

Monolayer Nanotechnology

Artificial Brain 10 years away

Tele-commuting Robot Personality's

Computer learns Sign Language through Observation

Artificial Nerves

Robot uses Scientific Method to make Discovery


I could do this sort of thing all day long (Literally, every minute of the rest of the day) and not run out of news in the past few (Couple) years that proves that all the problems you threw out there are all just one thing;

Coding issues that can be overcome.

reply to post by TheColdDragon



Then here is a simple example of something a robot will probably never be able to do...even with all the nano technology and computer on a chip in the world...but again, its not about the processing. Im positive a super computer could duplicate the physics and all the variables necessary to make a convincing simulation. But simulation is hardly the real thing, and it is not my argument...

When a robot can run throuh a field with potholes in long grass at full speed dodging rocks and other large obstacles, and then can jump on to a 4 inch wide wall, run along the wall not falling into the water on the other side, then climb down a rope that only hangs half way down to the ground and must jump only landing in the exactly right way as to avoid injury, and then get up and lie to the cop with a straight face as to why he just tresspassed then you will have me convinced that any type of robotic android will be on par with a human...

but they cant even seem to get them to climb stairs accurately yet...wonder why that is? Its 2009 and they arent even close to anything resembling a human...or anything with even 1/1000th the capabilities of a human...

As I have said, the only chance humans have to create something "greater" than ourselves is to bio engineer something with a greater amount of strength and mental capacity with all the senses that humans have available at their whim. It will never come in the form of any metals or plastics, and their are no electrical servos that can operate and fluxuate like human hands, feet and/ot the rest of the human bodies moving parts.

And to say their are machines that are already better at some tasks than humans is moot...because that is not the point. The point is that there will never be anything as adaptable and can do everything a human can do and better. Especially in the way the movies portray like iRobot and centennial man, or an even better example...Terminator. All that stuff is sci-fi and has no base in reality.

I would easily contest even the most advanced robot..the pinnacle of whatever is to come of android robotic engineering will not even be able to do half the things a human can do...that is until they go bio mechanical or straight biological...

Unless you can show some very advanced research that lends some sort of evidence to your argument, Im afraid my opinion will remain exactly as it does...

Firstly you admit that computers might one day duplicate the capacities of the human mind.

What is a robot if not a computer with some means of locomotion attached?

Then you give the example of the field as a test for what a robot should be able to do... How many humans can not pass your test? I would suspect a large majority of us.

The only real obstacle is making a computer/robot/whatever you want to call it think independently. Be aware of self.
Once that obstacle is achieved all the rest is a question of mechanics and engineering.

You are like a guy in the early 20th century saying that we will never be able to make a machine that flies like a bird.
If you where that guy, you would be right, we haven't managed to replicate the exact flight pattern of a bird, but we have improved on it and surpassed it.

And why would we try and reproduce perfect copies of ourselves? We invented the car to replace the horse/ox, we didn't have to make a perfect copy of the animal, but we achieved the goal of replacing and improving on the original.

Why denying the obvious?

Machines are not just smart they can be intelligent.

People claim they only know what we've taught them... WRONG.

First: You also learn from your parents/teachers therefore you've also been programmed

Second: Computers can compute problems they've never been "trained" for. Welcome to the 21st century. Computational biology already proved that the only limitation to obtain "impossible" results is the rather limited and primitive human brain.

Third: What you call logic it's actually illogical. Just because we have to define rules in order to allow our limited brains to assess complex processes actually drives us away from rather "illogical" answers to what we thought to be able to be solved by logic.

Fourth: Computers will be able to build themselves and evolve. This is already happening.

Fifth: The only away for the human race to survive time will be in the cyberspace because our physical body started to decay the second we were born.

Sixth: We are all too "logical" to understand the universe as it is. If you only assume rules and dogmas you'll always have Einstein as a model for the maximum achievable intelligence level - that it so wrong.

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
I can honestly say with out a doubt I believe that robots will never be as intelligent as a human being.

I don't know. I've met some pretty stupid humans.

Humans when born are practically blank slates with simple building blocks in place to build upwards into great towers from experiences and memories.I think AI that is equal or better than humans is not *that* hard...ok it is,but i think the basis on how it is formed would be simple as once the building blocks are in place it will learn the exact same way that we do and we don't need to do anything else.Analyzing chemicals and making their program equivalent so they can feel all the same emotions we do aswell that will be triggered by thoughts that come from memories/experience.I don't think it will be in my lifetime though and im only in my early 20's.

reply to post by madeioo

What is a robot if not a computer with some means of locomotion attached?

Much much more! Its not simlpe locomotion that is the issue. There are complexities to just being able to walk that have not yet been fully understood. A robot just being able to do the same maneuvers a human can will be undoubtedly one of the most difficult feets for the engineering world.

For example, just think about some of the best dancers out there. The day a robot can bust a move with the best of them will be a great leap in robotic engineering...well see how long that takes...I say somewhere in the next 500 to 1,000 years...I know that is a broad range of time, but hey, it may even take longer...

Then you give the example of the field as a test for what a robot should be able to do... How many humans can not pass your test? I would suspect a large majority of us.

You are saying a regular human can not run through a field dodging pot holes and large rocks then can not climb say an 8 foot wall?? I find it hard to believe the majority of us could not do such things. This was one of the easist examples I considered. Yet such acts couldnt eve nbegin to be considered with todays robotics.

Contemplate a robot climbing mount everest or some of the cliffs people have conqueredre...You think this is going to be a walk in the park for some robot? I doubt such things will ever happen...

The only real obstacle is making a computer/robot/whatever you want to call it think independently. Be aware of self.
Once that obstacle is achieved all the rest is a question of mechanics and engineering.

Those questions of mechanical engineering are of the utmost degree of difficulty. It is not a simple question of if it can be engineered. There are a multitude of obstacles that need to be overcome. Including the proper materials that probably dont even exist today.

You are like a guy in the early 20th century saying that we will never be able to make a machine that flies like a bird.
If you where that guy, you would be right, we haven't managed to replicate the exact flight pattern of a bird, but we have improved on it and surpassed it.

Not at all.. I am specifically referring to the android robots. that means human like. Built to be human like. I have been specific all along. During this whole thread. I am not talking about designs for robots built for non human tasks that robots even today outperform humans in. Theres no argument in that. They have specific purposes. I am talking about android robots built for human tasks. That means they must have the same basic elemnts of a human. Humans will (in my opinion) never be able to build something superior to ourselves to carry out human tasks. This goes for the robotic "maids" that will someday be used to help the elderly or the rich. Robotic soldiers meant to take on the tasks of war and everything in between. They wont be able to build as good or make the most basic of decisions as quickly or easily as a human.

Why?..For the reasons I have stated in other posts. Its almost a philosophical point of view. I sure couldnt explain the sciences behind the ideas...So I am just using my own reasonable logic to determine my opinion of the conclusion.

Its obvious many disagree. Thats cool by me, but my vision is based on the reality of the situation, not the romanticized movies that many like to envision...

And why would we try and reproduce perfect copies of ourselves?

What do you think an android is? What do you think billions of dollars are being poured into todays top research facilities? The attempt at duplicating ourselves exactly and better. This has been a long time dream of many scientists.

Robots locomotion is really not a limitation.

Why do we have to see a robot climbing?

What you want them to do is to watch them moving from point A, on the ground, to point B, at the top at the top of the mountain.

Your limitation here is to assume they have to walk or drag themselves up there. They can fly, jump or lunch themselves.

You have to be more practical but I guess you're just too human to assume that. It's not the way you do it that defines the successful outcome, it necessary the robot could even drill a hole to reach the top of the mountain.

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
As someone who does not know jack about programming, robotics or the engineering behind such ideas I would like to offer my minute opinion on the subject. I can honestly say with out a doubt I believe that robots will never be as intelligent as a human being.

I know a lot about programming, that is my job, statistical mechanics, a wee bit about quantum mechanics and artificial intelligence, and a whole plethora of scientific fields as I'm also a science researcher as my hobby and a Christian.

I tell you what, you're wrong! While we don't have technology right now, some people have enough LOVE and brains to make it happen.

It can only happen through love.

I totally agree with you ahnggk

The processing power already exists and AI computers are already working [I'm doing Developmental Genetics research and there are some guys using AI computers trying to model my results].

What was thought to be 100 years away it's already happening.

Just forget androids, that's actually a limitation - we are not a good model to follow.

reply to post by novrod


And I would thank you both, as professionals, for coming out and stating what is possible. I am merely a hobbyist who follows all Biotech, Nanotech, Genetic and Computing news with an insatiably voratious appetite.

I think if the OP read more from EurekALERT! and actually educated himself on the topic of both neuroscience (HUGE strides are being made from week to week, and soon it will be day to day), computing sciences (Both materials divisions as well as computational efficiency) and myriad branches of Algorithm research (Which has moved from just brute-forcing to actually deriving useful results from examining different forms of learning) they would not be stating something is essentially impossible to achieve.

But then again, the OP is the exact sort of person whose reaction I want to see when not only are they proved wrong, but then they realize that the entire history of mankind will be as a speck of dust compared to what the future holds.

This is a topic I find very fascinating. I would recommend for everyone to read "The singularity is near" by Ray Kurzweil. He explains all the big ideas, and shows what we currently have for state of the art technology in GNR or GENETIC, NANOTECH, and Robotics. One thing you have to take into account when forcasting the technological future in Moores Law. Which basically shows how our Computing technology has been doubling in performance/quality on average every 18 months.

Also, i do believe AI by itself will be able to "simulate" or replicate all human emotion and behavior, and then some. Easily.

However, I do believe that the best possible solution for preventing the "AI" that eats us all scenario, is to merge our bodies with our technology. that way, WE wont be obsolete, and then we would have our organic consciousness controlling this technology.

I for one would love to have a computer "in my head" controlled either optically or "telepathically" (for lack of a better word). could you imagine the benefit? You would never forget anything, you could have all the information on the internet available to you 24/7. you would no longer need math classes. And think of how many jobs would be made much easier and safer? Imagine being the foremen or a worker on a construction site, and seeing a 3D holographic blueprint of the building you are building. I could go on and on. If you would like to hear more or share ideas on this topic, send me a PM. I reallly digg this stuff.

In the matrix the humans are the ones that control the computers...


go humans!

Originally posted by ahnggk

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
As someone who does not know jack about programming, robotics or the engineering behind such ideas I would like to offer my minute opinion on the subject. I can honestly say with out a doubt I believe that robots will never be as intelligent as a human being.

I know a lot about programming, that is my job, statistical mechanics, a wee bit about quantum mechanics and artificial intelligence, and a whole plethora of scientific fields as I'm also a science researcher as my hobby and a Christian.

I tell you what, you're wrong! While we don't have technology right now, some people have enough LOVE and brains to make it happen.

It can only happen through love.

I know alot about programming and such as well, and AI was once a personal project for me.

AI will do many wonderful things, but they are slave to the logic given to it by it's programmer. The intelligence the AI will show is based and limited by our logic. Because we can put our logic into the machines, they will do many wonderful things.

It is possible to simulate such things, and one day robots will be walking side by side. But they will always be limited compared to humans in that they have no free will, no choice and are slave to logic. They are not able to really understand things, in the end they are doing nothing but processing patterns.

There is a reason it's "artificial", because it's just a simulation/illusion. Very useful, and I am not trying to understate what is possible with them, and what they can do. Pretty much anything you can come up with logic for is possible, and they will carry it out faster than humans could, no complaints, and much less in errors. Drive your car, cook you dinner, be your secretary and on and on - all possible. But there is a limit.

Robots will be technically smarter than us for sure. but a robot is kind of like a calculator. If you type 2+3 and then punch the = button, the calculator will be able to display a pretty little 5. but if you type in 2+3 andf then throw the calculator back on the table. it is kind of like OOOPS sorry calculator.

My point is that robots are nothing with-out us. They would't know what to do if we didn't program them.
Even with AI, the program would eventually come to an answer, or conclusion, or end. and then it will go back on the table and wait for someone to ask another question or make a nother demand.
Pretty sad existance for a robot really.

The reason robots need us is they have no curriosity or imagination. They don't know what they don't know and they don't know that they don't know it.

reply to post by president


As I said before.....

Mere programming issues.

You act as if it impossible to program an algorithm for self reflection or adaptation.

People working in the field won't be satisfied with just having Artificial Intelligence doing what we want it to do, when it does something unexpected THEN it matters to these folks.

Which is why the AI which came up with some physical rules which were NOT programmed into is is such a big deal (Happened about five months ago)... Self-Inventing AI's that can deduce logically ARE displaying imagination, or at least extraplation from logical sources and coming up with a solution which was not programmed.

Auto-Prototypers do something quite similar. This is a cusp...

Things never remain the same. Everything is always in a flux... and artificial intelligence will be developed.

Originally posted by TheColdDragon
reply to post by president

 

As I said before.....

Mere programming issues.

You act as if it impossible to program an algorithm for self reflection or adaptation.

or at least extraplation from logical sources and coming up with a solution which was not programmed.

yes, it comes up with a solution to a problem. But the problem is one that we asked it to solve.

Maybe there it is an obstacle in the way to finding the final answer to what we asked, and the AI would have to find it's way around "that" obstacle by weighing theories and possibilities against each other, but eventually It would come to a final answer or resolution and need further instruction.

A new objective. or mission. or job. or purpose. or program.


It would ask "what if" probably as it sorted through the possibilities of how to accomplish what it has been asked to do, but innevetably, whatever it's particular goal is, it would accomplish that goal and stop.

EX. if you programmed it to find a way to keep itself opperational forever, it would test every hypothetical situation possible, and when it finally decided on the way to accomplish the task, it would lie on the desk doing nothing forever awaiting further instruction.

Like some mindless robot.


Finding an answer without a computer is like busting concrete without a jackhammer. You could do it. But screw that.

All of what you have stated can be done with programming. If you think about we are nothing but a self learning organic computer. You say that we could not not live with out our "spirit" likewise a computer/android could not "live" without it's programming. To you what constitues life. From the way I see it it's simply being selfaware. "I think therfore I am"

Moore's law states that the number of components on a circuit board doubles every 2yrs. Going by that reasoning and mankinds shear determintion I say it is very likly to see a "living computer" one that can think for it's self. Once that would happen it could potentionaly build others.

Personally what I think will happen long before that is that we will take the next logical step in our evolution and start melding our selves with the computer. That way we would have the best of both worlds. All the feeling of being human but none of the draw backs like death.