The healthcare conspiracy

reply to post by infolurker


I do get it.

This is about health care.

So is the Fire service.

So why would you want to keep letting the insurance companies mandate what care you receive than the Government?

So back to the OP.

If you dont want to pay for your neighbor then why do you pay for your neighbors health care through the fire service.

Answer that question because I will not fall for you derailing this thread again.

No they are not going to have your best interests at heart but, ideally it would be set up in a way to force the Insurance companies through legal obligation to give you certain things....

It is a tricky subject... one that many people are getting very heated about... myself included... we do not live in a perfect world, and can only live our lifes, try to influence others in what we deem a positive way and hold on tight for the roller coaster ride....

Originally posted by unfndqlt
There is a difference though.

No one is denied the right to an emergency room visit. Granted it will be extremely expensive (if you are legal, and actually pay), but you will be taken care of...

You said something interesting. Note that ALL will receive care and do; Even those without insurance.

And here is a closely guarded secret . . . the hospitals, doctors, and health facilities give away Billions of dollars of "charity" care to those people with NO insurance.

You, becaused you are insured, will pay copayments and non-covered expenses, and if you have assets you will be held liable for 100% of the charges. Even if that means you end up in that 60% pool of families that have to take bankruptcy. However all the costs for treating the uninsured are absorbed by . . . you guessed it YOUR insurance premiums.

So lets see, if we offer a government backed insurance coverage to those individuals that were giving 100% free coverage, and we actually collect some premium from them via premiums & taxes, you will actually see . . you guessed it forced lower premiums from private insurance holders.

Also, the government already sends billions of your tax dollars to the community health centers and hospitals for treating these uninsured folks.

So why would the insurance companies want to kill this bill? Simple they would lose their ability to charge a family like mine $13,000 a year for insurance and they lose the option to bankrupt those with assets.

If this depression is going to last "years" and we have the boomers unemployed, and uninsured, and homeless we are going to see a decade of suffering that will deliver images worthy of the title The Greatest Depression.

edit sp

[edit on 10-8-2009 by Absum!]

reply to post by LoneGunMan


I agree, the insurance companies need to change the way they do business, but so do alot of healthcare providers, IMO. The pre-existing exclusion should not exist, niether should the delays in claims payment that seem to be done intentionally through front end denials and convoluded payment systems. Providers however, share some blame for the problems. For example, I've seen wheelchairs billed line item by line item, seats, wheels, all kinds of accessories that are pretty much just part of the wheelchair itself, and the claim comes out to ten thousand dollars, as much as a car but for a wheelchair, no exaggerating. Healthcare providers also charge patients with insurance more than patients without, which seems wrong to me. Should be one fee for service, for everybody. There are other problems, such as network contracting and crap, but those are some big ones. Then there's the problem of lawsuits for the providers, and the resulting need for expensive insurance.

All those things are screwing up the system, IMO. There should be some kind of reform, i'm not too sure what to think about a government option. May not bold well for my current work situation, but i can always get another job. I'm hoping change for the better can be made, one way or the other.

Originally posted by unfndqlt
No they are not going to have your best interests at heart but, ideally it would be set up in a way to force the Insurance companies through legal obligation to give you certain things....

Why is it that in the 90's health care paid for almost everything with little or no cost out of pocket and they dont now? Because with the billions of dollars they have they paid off the politicians to have much less coverage.

How about taking all the profit out of paying for your health care like it is in the Fire service?

That profit could go to helping even more people.

Insurance companies...you actually trust them? Come on!!! They are the biggest crooks right next to the banks.

Originally posted by 27jd
reply to post by LoneGunMan

 

All those things are screwing up the system, IMO. There should be some kind of reform, i'm not too sure what to think about a government option. May not bold well for my current work situation, but i can always get another job. I'm hoping change for the better can be made, one way or the other.

Amen to that buddy. Something has to give.

reply to post by LoneGunMan


I totally agree - remove the profit!

It is a somewhat ghoulish notion that someone somewhere is making a "killing" off of the medical misfortune of our citizens. Dare I say "Blood Money?"

My employer pays for part of the employee’s coverage, around $45,000 a month. Every year that has been going up 5-8% for around 9 years now. We are discussing canceling this perk altogether and giving the cash to the employees. Than the employees can buy the expensive insurance or maybe an affordable government backed insurance.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
reply to post by infolurker

 

I do get it.

This is about health care.

So is the Fire service.

So why would you want to keep letting the insurance companies mandate what care you receive than the Government?

So back to the OP.

If you dont want to pay for your neighbor then why do you pay for your neighbors health care through the fire service.

Answer that question because I will not fall for you derailing this thread again.

Answer that question because I will not fall for you derailing this thread again.

OK, I think I answered your questions quite nicely but let's do this one piece at a time.

So why would you want to keep letting the insurance companies mandate what care you receive than the Government?

If it isn't obvious, I don't trust these current government plans because they have gone out of their way to exempt themselves from taking this plan themselves, thus I do not trust that the plans are any good. So, I trust the Government plans less than I do the corrupt insurance companies. Again, I am not opposed to a national plan if it is as good or better than what I have. I could care less if insurance companies go away. I could care less if we have a good national healthcare or insurance reform... I just want something GOOD and not the adoption of a government plan "just because".

If you dont want to pay for your neighbor then why do you pay for your neighbors health care through the fire service.

I will support a good national healthcare plan... Like the one Congress has today would work fine by me. So, we all pay into the plan... OK, that includes covering our neighbors.. question answered, I am not opposed to universal coverage that covers other people anywhere (hospitals, ambulance, whatever). I support fire, police, etc. already and am not opposed to that either. (Am I misunderstanding the question?)

Am I supposed to only answer : Insurance companies BAD so support a "crappy" government plan? No thanks, give me a GOOD government plan with "no exemptions" Or Insurance reform... I could care less but adopting a "less than good" government plan isn't going to help us and WE deserve better. WE deserve the plan that our "public Servants" have. Our "Public Servants" not "Public Masters". It is an insult that they would Exempt themselves from the very plan they are pushing on the rest of us.




[edit on 10-8-2009 by infolurker]

I have a conspiracy too.

Why doesn't the government work on the solving the main problem that even this thread is about. Cost.

That is what it comes down too, nothing about people being denied a treatment, only that they don't have the money to pay for it, but the treatment is still available. The wait times are better than every other country. People still have the option to get the treatment even if their insurance company denies it to them.

So why does the government want to take over the whole Health Care industry, why don't they work on measures that doesn't cost the taxpayer one red cent. Why do they feel like they need to spend another 1+ trillion dollars to "fix" what they broke, and refuse to do in the first place?

Also the claims of "staged protest" against this bill is unfounded. Sure it happens, but what I see is a lot of PO'd American's that are tired of having 1000+ page bills rammed down their throats when even their reps haven't read.

Why does the conspiracy always seem to center around the right wing? Why doesn't it ever center around the "left wing"? So why can't the conspiracy be the left wing paying operatives to paint the "right wing" in a bad light?

Actually it is an excellent analogy as that is exactly how your fire department used to be run - you had to put a badge on the front of your house int eh event a fire - they would simply let you burn without it.

Look at around 7.20





Every other modern western developed democracy has Universal Health care - it is considered a fundamental human right in those nations - not having it simply makes your country look backwards - you may feel this is unfair and that you are not backwards - just letting you know how 99% of the modern world sees you - the 1% backwards country.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by audas]

[edit on 11-8-2009 by audas]

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife

Also the claims of "staged protest" against this bill is unfounded. Sure it happens, but what I see is a lot of PO'd American's that are tired of having 1000+ page bills rammed down their throats when even their reps haven't read.

Why does the conspiracy always seem to center around the right wing? Why doesn't it ever center around the "left wing"? So why can't the conspiracy be the left wing paying operatives to paint the "right wing" in a bad light?

You really need to read up on who is behind the protesters. And I am only posting a few tiny pieces of the puzzle. Please follow and read the link as to who and what they are doing. I know it is a lot to ask as the report is about 5 pages long.

However, if you just want to be a "Foxbot" and follow the general marching orders I will totally understand. That requires only your ability to believe hyperbole.

Truthdig

So, whaddaya do? Well, if your lobbying firm counts former Rep. Dick Armey, R-Texas, as its senior policy adviser, you don’t have do much. Dick will take care of the rest through FreedomWorks, the ostensibly grassroots, nonprofit organization of anti-taxers, cold warriors and affirmative-action opponents, which he chairs.

Need to make it look like regular Americans oppose the health-insurance reform bills now being considered by Congress? Make sure a handful of those angry white people turn up at the town hall meetings now being conducted by members of Congress throughout the country. Make sure they disrupt the meeting and rattle the congressperson.

Capture it all on amateur video and put it up on a faux, amateur-looking Web site, and try to kid the media into thinking there’s a widespread rebellion happening. After all, the media are gonna want that dramatic footage.

A public option is going to stink for you, too. So, while Armey’s army of taxphobes is useful to you, it would be great to get some really hard-core types to further stoke the fires—especially if marshaled by guys who know how to really tar Democrats with racist imagery and slurs of unpatriotic behavior.

That’s where Grassfire.org and its brother networking site, ResistNet, come in. Sen. Jim DeMint, R-S.C., who promised to make health-care reform President Obama’s "Waterloo," is a big fan. Says so right there on the Grassfire Web site. ResistNet is yet another right-wing hub for organizing the disruption of health-care town hall meetings.

FreedomWorks and the K Street Lobbyist

In Washington’s K Street corridor, Dick Armey is a very important man—so important, in fact, that he was scooped up, upon his retirement from Congress, by the lobbying firm DLA Piper.

It’s been widely reported that Piper lobbies on behalf of health-care industry interests, including Bristol-Myers Squibb, but its top health-care-industry client, according to OpenSecrets.org, is The Medicines Co., a small, below-the-radar firm that has paid Armey’s lobbying firm nearly $2.4 million since the beginning of 2008—nearly 15 percent of DLA Piper’s overall lobbying income for the period.

Originally posted by audas

Can anyone watch that video and still agree the insurance companies have any interest in helping us? Can anyone not see that cutting the profit out for the insurance companies is a good thing?

I am so amazed at how easy it is to brainwash Americans.



To comment on the fire service portion.

The reason we are called Firefighters is that is someone had a badge on there home that would cover all Fire companies the Fireman would fight in the street over who would put out he fire. This is why we are called Firefighters.

We were taught that in the academy.

reply to post by Absum!


It would appear that the person you are responding to may well be a paid stooge - I have my suspicions judging by the responses.

reply to post by audas

I hate how everyone says we are backwards on this healthcare issue. I agree that our current systems sucks...I am covered with insurance via my employer, however it doesn't cover my family and to cover them its around $400-500 a month.

I am not against a government run healthcare for everyone. But like MANY other people have said, why should we just jump on the first thing they put together? To me thats backwards. I think America should look at the healthcare plans of other countries, see what works, see what doesn't and make the best possible plan with the most coverage with the lowest price. This SHOULD NOT BE RUSHED!!! Thats why we Americans are all up in arms over this, and if thats backwards then GOOD I don't want to be "forwards".

-Uninspired

reply to post by Absum!


Hurling insults at me isn't going to get me to change my mind at all. But all you have done is post some excerpts of people trying to organize people.

Ironically the left does it all time. So what is the point? Sure both sides do it, as I have mentioned, but me myself, and many people that I know aren't paid are signed up to these "e-mail" list or robo calls to tell us to go protest.

So I really don't know why you are trying to paint the few people on the right that are organized as a "bad thing". It only furthers my view that TPTB are winning because people can't possibly fathom that people are actually going to express their concerns because they want too, not because anybody paid them.

I could do a 2 second google search and have all kinds of info of how the left is organizing people to disrupt the protest.

Trying to paint everybody with that broad brush of yours is part of what is stoking the flames.

reply to post by LoneGunMan


Here's a better analogy:

If you lefties think the government SHOULD pay for health insurance then WHY don't you also advocate for government to also just PAY for my CAR insurance or HOUSE insurance too?



[edit on 11-8-2009 by Gateway]

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife


Did you watch that video? If not then please watch it.

If you did then please tell me what you thought. Personally I am trying to figure out how anyone would want the insurance industry to keep on dictating who gets what in the way of care.

Then I would like to know if you fully understand the Fire Service analogy.

Originally posted by audas
reply to post by Absum!

 

It would appear that the person you are responding to may well be a paid stooge - I have my suspicions judging by the responses.

Thanks for the heads up. It is interesting that the individual used the following to create a dust cloud.

So why does the government want to take over the whole Health Care industry, why don't they work on measures that doesn't cost the taxpayer one red cent. Why do they feel like they need to spend another 1+ trillion dollars to "fix" what they broke, and refuse to do in the first place?

To "take over the whole health system." A total falsehood. When the facts are it will create an option to purchase Government insurance (like buying BlueCross). If someone wanted to create a new insurance company, no one would say a peep. But because the government wants to, the PTB that have been getting "greased" for years are crying "socialism." Because they have been bought off.

If we are going to survive as a community we need to become more advanced in our ways of caring for each other. Have the PTB banged on our cages so long we are ready to say Eff-um all? What happened to common sense and compassion?

Originally posted by Gateway
reply to post by LoneGunMan

 

Here's a better analogy:

If you lefties think the government SHOULD pay for health insurance then WHY don't you also advocate for government to also just PAY for my CAR insurance or HOUSE insurance too?

Well for one this person is not a "lefty" or a "righty" I am a human being that voted independent. I am what is called a "moderate". :shk:

The reason why I dont pay your car insurance and home insurance is that you can live without it. It is a luxury.

Health is not a luxury.

Why do I have to pay for YOUR fire service?



[edit on 11-8-2009 by LoneGunMan]

reply to post by Absum!


How long before that "option" becomes a "no choice"? Every Company I have worked for gives you a choice of an HMO, PPO, or PPO with HRA with ONE insurer, I can't choose to go with another insurer, If the company has United Heathcare, I only get to choose United Healthcare. If they have Anthem next year, I get to choose Anthem plans... So, if my company goes with "public option", guess what I get?

Really.. if the "option" is cheaper than "blue cross" how many companies will change to the "new program"?

I will ask directly, Can you tell me beyond a shadow of a doubt that companies will not drop standard insurance and adopt the "public option" for it's employees if the cost is lower?

If the answer is No, I cannot say that then there is no reason to believe that it could well happen. I expect it to and if I am going to get a government plan then I want it to be a GOOD one that our "public servants" adopt for themselves. It is only fair that if we are going to "get" this then our politicians should join the same plan. (See above and on page 1 of this post)

[edit on 11-8-2009 by infolurker]