Protester on Fox: Pelosi 'Thugs' Came In 'Middle Of The Night,' Health Care Plan 'Sentences Our

It has always been my experience that sometimes people usually make up stories when they can't back up what they are saying with the truth.

Sometimes people also get more angry when they don't can't back up what they are saying with the truth.

In this case, I think it is both.

I think these people believe what they are saying with a little help from the right and most of them are older, but with all due respect, they are basing their opinion on health care reform on a generation of cold war propaganda.

I truly feel sorry for them, and hope they can put a side old beliefs and let the democratic process work.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by spiritwomyn

 

And what is even sadder is the Jews who claim to hate the Nazis, can't even see it. So either they are in it, or they are blind.

In fact, not only don't many of them see it, they are BEHIND it!
Rahm Emanuel .....Not only is he Jewish, but he spent a great deal of time in Israel, working with the Israeli army, honing his tactics. ....Perhaps they believe that Hitler's tactics were very powerful, and that somehow they can avoid the same fate that landed Hitler and Germany in the trash heap of history.

Wow..So the Jews are "behind it" and not only that they are Nazi's! Jewish Nazi's! What a hate filled, bigoted remark that does nothing for the discussion. The jews are behind it and they are Nazi's...the bigoted rhetoric here is disgusting.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by spiritwomyn

 

And what is even sadder is the Jews who claim to hate the Nazis, can't even see it. So either they are in it, or they are blind.

In fact, not only don't many of them see it, they are BEHIND it!
Rahm Emanuel is probably more responsible than any person on Earth for what is going on. He is Obama's chief of staff, and pulls the strings on just about every dirty trick in the book. It is his trademark. They don't call him Dead Fish for nothing.
Not only is he Jewish, but he spent a great deal of time in Israel, working with the Israeli army, honing his tactics. In his book, he describes what he wants for America regarding Civilian Youth Corps. It comes right out of the book Hitler's regime wrote, when the Hitler Youth was created.

It is indeed ironic and seemingly inexplicable that Israel and many Jewish politicians have adopted the exact SAME tactics used by the Nazis that they so seemingly despise. It has to make you wonder what is going on, doesn't it?

Perhaps they believe that Hitler's tactics were very powerful, and that somehow they can avoid the same fate that landed Hitler and Germany in the trash heap of history.

Those that fail to learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them. If America allows this Nazification of our country to continue, American will suffer the same fate as Germany did in 1945.

Or perhaps the universal fear and loathing felt for the tragic events of the Holocaust serve also as a smoke screen to prevent honest intellectual analysis of matters. This might be why there are often very negative reactions to this invocation. A good example of this would be Rush Limbaugh's recent rant regarding Hitler's laws involving the boiling of lobsters. He simply argues that Hitler was a fan of animal rights law and so are Democrats, while Republicans are not. His conclusion is that this clearly demonstrates Democrats are like Nazis. This is a logical fallacy called cum hoc ergo propter hoc, also known as "correlation does not imply causation." These comparisons befuddle the rational mind's ability to grapple with the complicated truth by invoking simple, black and white imagery that we've all been exposed to culturally. It's a powerful method, but often bankrupt of real value in the arena of debate. It's a debating approach that focuses on the harms, but blows things so far out of proportion that the entire situation becomes distorted with powerful emotion. Better to talk about the real harms involved in the conduct of these town hall meetings, or the harms of the proposed (and very nebulous) universal health plan. Connecting those two things to the harms of Nazi Germany is, frankly, unrealistic and unfair. It does not surprise me that many Jewish groups don't take kindly to this rhetoric coming from either party.

reply to post by maybereal11

What a hate filled, bigoted remark that does nothing for the discussion.

Please show me any evidence that you have that says that Rahm Emanuel did NOT do any of the things that I mentioned he did. Before you do, though, perhaps you need a refresher of history:

Perhaps for good reason. With the nickname "Rahmbo" and a disposition likened to that of a mobster, Emanuel, though widely respected for his moxy and get-it-done record, isn't exactly Mr. Nice Guy. A dynamic mix of talent and brawn -- he was offered a scholarship to the Joffrey Ballet company and volunteered for the Israeli Army during the Gulf War -- Emanuel's the real-deal pitbull Democrat (lipstick not included). What follows is a list of the five most infamous Rahmbo tales. It's the stuff legends are made of: 1. Mailing a Dead Fish Emanuel is known for his panache for treating donors right. He sends them cheesecakes from Eli's, the famous Chicago bakery. But the one pollster who notoriously ticked off Rahmbo received a 2 1/2 foot decomposing fish in the mail -- ripe, stinky, and to the point. 2. Fundraising the Bugsy Siegel Way His foray into fundraising started in Chicago while campaigning for Mayor Richard Daley's reelection, when Emanuel raised a record number of donations. His sales pitch was simple enough: He'd tell contributors he found their offers so low it was embarrassing and then hang up on them. Mortified, the donors were shamed into calling back and giving more. 3. Nearly Losing His Finger When he was a senior in high school, he sliced his finger while working at Arby's. But instead of seeking medical attention, he decided to celebrate prom night by swimming in Lake Michigan. The bone and blood infection that resulted was so severe it practically killed him. Scrappy and determined, even at death's door with a fever of 106 degrees, he pulled through, only losing part of his finger. 4. Threatening Tony Blair Never a mincer of words, Emanuel didn't couch his meaning when he offered Tony Blair counsel just before the then British prime minister appeared with President Clinton during the Monica Lewinsky scandal: "This is important. Don't ---- it up." 5. Knifing the Dinner Table The most infamous Rahmbo story of them all is the one that begins with the dinner the night after Bill Clinton was elected in 1992. Among those present at the dinner table was ABC News anchor George Stephanopoulos, who watched while an overwrought and clearly exhausted Emanuel began ranting at a long list of Clinton "enemies." As he shouted each name, he stabbed the table with his steak knife: "Nat Landow! Dead! Cliff Jackson! Dead!" Apparently, others joined in.

blog.foreignpolicy.com...

George Stephanopoulos, BTW, is as most people know, one of the most loyal Democrats alive. Even he admits the Rahmbo is a brutal gangster using Nazi tactics. The fact that Rahmbo is chief of staff speaks to what Obama wanted in his administration. He didn't chose him blindly.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by maybereal11

 

Now since the left already says that the protesters that are from the right and left are being loud and disruptive the only way you can one up some one who is loud and disruptive is by escalating it to the next level and that is violence and intimidation.
[edit on 11/8/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

There was a lot to your post, but for the sake of brevity I will respond to what I think needs a response most.

Yes the "right" or more accurately mostly "right" along with some independants and tea baggers, industry backed organizers etc have been loud and disruptive.

BUT the "only way you can one up them" is not through louder or more disruptive protests in favor of reform, but rather calm, honest and truthful responses to loud and disruptive screaming and (lets be honest) a lot of propaganda.

That is how you one up them. Truth to lies. Calmness to disruptiveness, Peace to violence. Reason to irrationality. A calm and reasoned examination of the facts. It might be less emotionally satisfying, and certainly less entertaining, but history past and present has demonstrated that it is by far a more successful strategy than "one upping" anyone in a shouting contest.

This whole debate reminds me of when I have seen friends argue publically and one of them starts shouting while the other remains calm. Whatever the topic...those watching usually feel like the one shouting has "lost it" and the one responding calmly is likely in the right.

That is how I see this turning out. It will pass if for no other reason than the tactics those opposed to it have opted to employ.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by maybereal11

 

What a hate filled, bigoted remark that does nothing for the discussion.

Please show me any evidence that you have that says that Rahm Emanuel did NOT do any of the things that I mentioned he did.

I could care less what you claim he has done...what offends me is your claim that he did these things because "the jews" are "behind it".

Not interested in discussing the matter with a bigot. Your post speaks for itself.

[edit on 11-8-2009 by maybereal11]

reply to post by maybereal11


No offence but judging by the warning on your avatar and quick rush to judgement towards some of the other Posters, I don't think you are quite succeeding at your own advice to others to remain rational, calm, and speak to just the facts.

I give great advice too to others and some times fail to take advantage of it myself so I know what that is like.

The reality is that each and every one of us would have our own unique way of running the world, and defining right and wrong and what others should do.

The reality is that as each and every one of us often demonstrates, including yourself that we often choose to hold others to loftier standards than we hold our selves.

You can't have a rational conversation or debate or discussion on something that is non-existent.

There is no health care bill that has been finalized and ready to be voted on but 5 different competing versions in 5 different committees.

No one can claim to have the facts of something that doesn't even exist yet and won't until some point in the future if ever at all.

Not unless they are claravoyent, or a gypsie fortune teller and most claravoyents and gypsie fortune tellers are proven to be frauds.

The Administration and the Democratic Leadership has invited this contentious debate regardless who is debating it and how or why because it had ample opportunity to finalize a bill since it was a party goal and they control the house and the senate and the white house with clear majorities in each one of them.

That they came to class ill prepared with out their homework and assignment done but want a blank check to give themselves an A for what ever they do come up with, when they finally do come up with something is the democrats own fault.

For them to decry the people protesting a lack of facts and there can be no facts without a real single finalized bill that is going to be voted on is absurd.

For them to claim that they are wanting to give people the facts the only fact is they have not completed a bill despite the fact that their is no credible opposition to them doing so numerically in the house or senate or white house.

You want to hold the right and the independents to a standard you don't want to hold your own party and administration too.

You want to hold others to standards you don't want to hold yourself to.

It's highly evident and I point it out not to be critical but to be helpful.

You can't have facts because there is no Bill.

It's a fact that people are protesting the Bill.

You can not like how they are protesting it or why, but they are within their constitutional rights even though they aren't living life according to you.

But neither are you.

Take your own advice and play nice!



[edit on 11/8/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by JohnnyElohim

Connecting those two things to the harms of Nazi Germany is, frankly, unrealistic and unfair.

Actually, I believe that the comparison is fair. On page 1 of this thread, I explained my reason. Let me repeat it again, so that it is on the same page, and hopefully you will see what I was referring to. It is the sending of union thugs to beat up protesters that I compare to what Hitler did with the brown shirts:

What is happening now, is the unleashing of Obama's Brown Shirts, to intimidate and instill fear. Of course, the final intent is to stifle all opposition to his complete takeover of the United States, and the ultimate elimination of free speech. One need only look at the history of Germany in the 1930's to see how similar the situation is. Germany was in the midst of a depression, with hyper-inflation making the German mark worthless. Banks were nationalized-sound familiar? Taxes were raised drastically. Hitler ascended to power, and immediately made plans to increase his power, and eliminate any opposition. He understood that he needed more than political allies to accomplish that- he needed thugs that would beat people up, and if necessary, kill them. Fear became his greatest weapon. Obama now has done the same, unleashing the first (SEIU) of what will be many groups of thugs. These scenes will become more and more frequent, as his UnterFuehrer, Rahm Emanuel carries out program of intimidation, fear and violence. It is ironic that his original thugs, the SA, was headed by a man named Rohm! Of course, after Rohm accomplished what Hitler wanted, he had Rohm assassinated. Maybe Rahm had better watch out. For those who say it is wrong to compare the current administration and his minions to the Nazis, I say that if the shoe fits, WEAR IT. The shoe fits. Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.

Let me add a fact that may make what I am claiming a little clearer regarding Rahm. Please view this 6 second Youtube:


Add all of those things together, and you will see why I said what I said. Furthermore, I am not saying all that are behind it are Jews, nor am I saying all Jews are behind it. what I AM saying is that there are Jews who ARE adopting Nazi-like tactics and using those tactics to intimidate people, just as I believe that Israel used Stormtrooper tactics in their invasion of Gaza, using of white phosphorus on civilian populations, and other such tactics, that have been reported by even Israeli newspapers. Those Jews that use such tactics (and only those) are trampling on the graves of those Jews who were victims of the Nazis. I do not in any way hate Jews, but I do despise anyone that uses those tactics, be they Jewish or otherwise. I responded to a post in an honest way. You may not agree with me, but it was not in any way a hateful post. It was my opinion. Period. Don't make more of it than it is.

What I will say, however, is that after reading my post, if I had re-read what I said, I would have changed this:

In fact, not only don't many of them see it, they are BEHIND it!

to this:

In fact, not only don't many of them see it, some of them are BEHIND it!

That is what my intention was, and I apologize it did not come out as I originally intended. I do apologize to anyone that was offended. I did not intend it as I originally posted it.

[edit on 11-8-2009 by ProfEmeritus]

Originally posted by Hal9000
It has always been my experience that sometimes people usually make up stories when they can't back up what they are saying with the truth.

Sometimes people also get more angry when they don't can't back up what they are saying with the truth.

In this case, I think it is both.

I think these people believe what they are saying with a little help from the right and most of them are older, but with all due respect, they are basing their opinion on health care reform on a generation of cold war propaganda.

I truly feel sorry for them, and hope they can put a side old beliefs and let the democratic process work.

Good to see you around Hal!

Yep, I believe you have pretty much sized up what is happening very well.

Starred!

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by maybereal11

 

No offence but judging by the warning on your avatar and quick rush to judgement towards some of the other Posters, I don't think you are quite succeeding at your own advice to others to remain rational, calm, and speak to just the facts.

I give great advice too to others and some times fail to take advantage of it myself so I know what that is like.

Like Samuel L. Jackson said in Pulp Fiction...after the Ezekial 25:17 bit...

"Either you are the the evil man and I am the righteous, or you are the weak and I am the tyranny of evil men. But I am trying real hard to be the shepherd"

i think it is about time all of us who are still in possess of our senses begin to work to bring the fractured USA back together.

I am not saying we need to agree on the issues but we need to relearn how to agree to disagree and deal with the disagreements with respect.

continuing to support hate, aggression, slander, the objectification of the 'other' and all the like needs to end, before we do.

the last thing this nation needs is riots among political factions are even worse, civil war.

i would like to think that we are intelligent enough and enlightened enough to sort out our differences without sinking to such base tactics.

there is a growing precedent of those in the media fanning the flames of discord and it is inexcusable.

we need to learn to work together as a nation, and by nation i mean we the people.

united we stand, divided we fall.

Originally posted by maybereal11

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by maybereal11

 

No offence but judging by the warning on your avatar and quick rush to judgement towards some of the other Posters, I don't think you are quite succeeding at your own advice to others to remain rational, calm, and speak to just the facts.

I give great advice too to others and some times fail to take advantage of it myself so I know what that is like.

Like Samuel L. Jackson said in Pulp Fiction...after the Ezekial 25:17 bit...

"Either you are the the evil man and I am the righteous, or you are the weak and I am the tyranny of evil men. But I am trying real hard to be the shepherd"

Maybe that's the problem, some of us don't want or need shepherds. Some of us aren't flock or pack animals. Some of us have independent critical thinking minds. Some of us have realized that there really is no health bill. Some of us have realized that if there isn't one and it's the democrats who control the house, the senate and the white house which they do, that if there is no bill, well it sure can't be anyone elses fault besides the democrats.

In business we have a saying, you must inspect what you expect. There is no bill to inspect, so there fore no one could know if there expectations are being met or not met.

Where you are trying to shepherd people do is some mythical little pasture that you imagine everyone can be happy in, chewing their cud, baaing and mooing in a mindless way, who are just going to say...I trust the shepherd to do what's in my best interest.

Independent minded people trust themselves, and if you want to get Biblical "The good Lord helps those that help themselves"

Since you don't have the facts, since there are no facts, the fact of the matter is for all you know you are shepherding yourself and your would be flock right off of a cliff.

Some of us are followers, some of us are leaders, but not everyone who tries to lead is worthy of following. Not everyone who imagines they have good intentions has the good common sense and intelligence to recognize that sometimes their good intentions aren't that good at all when you think down a level, over a level, or accross a level and look at the ramifications you don't want to in leading others by good intentions.

Maybe there are wolves that live near by that field, maybe it's full of holes in the ground that are going to break the legs of some of the herd, maybe there is a poisonus nest of snakes in that field, maybe there is a bee hive on one end and a hornets nest on the other and wasps in the middle.

You don't know, because there is no bill, shepherd yourself towards some common sense and if you want to really be angry at someone be angry at the democrats who really had ample opportunity to present a bill since they do control the house, the senate and the white house.

Thanks, but I take my own path in life, and frankly I don't like shepherds whether they are good or evil, because I am not a pack or herd animal, and I don't need anyone leading me to slaughter or salvation but me.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus

What I will say, however, is that after reading my post, if I had re-read what I said, I would have changed this:

In fact, not only don't many of them see it, they are BEHIND it!

to this:

In fact, not only don't many of them see it, some of them are BEHIND it!

That is what my intention was, and I apologize it did not come out as I originally intended. I do apologize to anyone that was offended. I did not intend it as I originally posted it.

[edit on 11-8-2009 by ProfEmeritus]

Okay. Then this is the point I would like to make..of those "BEHIND it" there are Christians, Muslims, Aetheists, Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, Chinese Americans ...etc. etc..ad nuaseum. Some employ strong-arm tactics, some do not, some are ethical in their conduct, some are not...

What the hell does Rahm being a "Jew" have to do with it?

The only correlation I can discern from your posts is that the horrible behavior and tactics that you attribute to him is a result of his "Jewishness"...in fact you make a passionate, if flawed, case for it.

So while I want to play nice, I have to call it as I see it.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I was trying to be humurous. Fail I guess. Please don't read to much into the Shepherd thing...Just an example of someone trying to live by their own principles.

reply to post by maybereal11

What the hell does Rahm being a "Jew" have to do with it? The only correlation I can discern from your posts is that the horrible behavior and tactics that you attribute to him is a result of his "Jewishness"...in fact you make a passionate, if flawed, case for it. So while I want to play nice, I have to call it as I see it.

I guess you did not follow all the posts. My post was a response to a post by another member who stated this:

And what is even sadder is the Jews who claim to hate the Nazis, can't even see it. So either they are in it, or they are blind.

Read that post and then read my original answer and it should explain why Emanuel was brought into the issue. Emanuel is Jewish, and either he can't see it, or as I believe, he is actually using the tactics that most Jews despise because of who used those tactics against their own people.
That is as clear as I can get. If you still don't understand, then there is nothing I can do to make it clearer.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Okay. I understand the evolution of the posts and acknowledge the premise of what you are arguing...that since Emanuel is Jewish he is either ignorant of the tactics that the Jewish People should historically abhor or he is willfully employing them.

I would be more comfortable if any analysis or critique of his tactics or political motives were divorced from the argument "and he's a Jew!"

Sorry for calling you a bigot.

reply to post by maybereal11


reply to post by maybereal11

What the hell does Rahm being a "Jew" have to do with it?

The fact that he is Jewish has little to nothing to do with it. The fact that he is a Zionist and an Israeli does.

People with dual citizenship and dual allegiances to other nations should not be in a policy making or influencing position within our government.

No other nation's politics including Israel's should influence our own.

Religion like our founding fathers wanted should be kept out of government.

Ultra conservative Christians often support neoconservative agendas and they do so because they want to try to legislate scripture, which as nice as scripture might be to some people is not democratic but autocratic.

It wouldn't be correct to say all Christians are neoconservatives any more than it would be correct to say all Jews are Zionists and Israelis.

Yet the reality is many Jews support Zionist and Israeli policies that are non-Constititutional and try to promote them here, just like many Christians promote Zionist and Evangelical policies and try to promote them here.

America for Americans and America based on seperation of Church and State is what many of us believe makes America as great as it is so that whether you are Jewish or Christian or Muslim or a Hindu, White, Black, Brown, Red, Yellow, Pink, Orange, Purple, Green or Fusia you can live here free of persecution able to exercise your right to be self determining and practice your own faith without anyone else imposing it on you.

There should be no Israeli dual citizens in government. There should be no attempts to legislate policy that favors an other nation over any other nation including our own. There should be no religious influence in government, that's for churches and priests, and rabbis and imans and gurus not for politicians.

The professor is neither racist nor bigotted he is pragmatic and prudent and favors our constitution.

Sadly that is no longer politically correct and neither is common sense but it sure does not mean or make it a bad idea. People like Rahm Emanuell should not be in the U.S. Government period! Neither should the Pope, Jimmy Swaggart, the Reverened Moon, or Vladmir Putkin. It's real simple.

Except of course when the self righteous and indignant make it complicated by being indignant and disruptive

reply to post by maybereal11

Okay. I understand the evolution of the posts and acknowledge the premise of what you are arguing...that since Emanuel is Jewish he is either ignorant of the tactics that the Jewish People should historically abhor or he is willfully employing them.

Yes, that was exactly my point. I'm glad we have come to an understanding. I will certainly be more careful of my wording in the future.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


You are aware that Rahm Emanuel HAD dual citizenship through his father until the age of 18 and then relinquished it for US citizenship?

You have looked into it ...right? Or are you just claiming he's a "Zionist" and "Israeli"?

Originally posted by maybereal11
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

You are aware that Rahm Emanuel HAD dual citizenship through his father until the age of 18 and then relinquished it for US citizenship?

You have looked into it ...right? Or are you just claiming he's a "Zionist" and "Israeli"?

Well I don't know Rahm Emanuel personally mind you, pretty much like I don't know the man who gave the interview that the Original Post is about.

I do know the good Doctor Emanuel, his father was a founding Zionist Terrorist who used terrorist tactics against the Brittish and Arabs in Palestine.

I know that Rahm volunteered to serve in the Israeli army though which kind of makes him a citizen all on his own, and I know he was raised in a Zionist culture.

Most people not all are byproducts of their backgrounds and circumstances.

When he worked in the Clinton White House he was reputed to be the number one source of leaks in the Clinton White Hosue when ever Clinton formulated a policy he didn't like.

I really don't imagine, though it is just my imagination, though it is likely not running away with me ee ee, that Rahm Emanuel belongs in Israel or running a Jewlery Store in the Diamond District of any U.S. City or selling paraphenillia or trinkets on some strip or mall where he can spy to his hearts content on the U.S. but NOT IN THE WHITE HOUSE!