Are "birther's" rascists?

Originally posted by contemplator

Originally posted by argentus
reply to post by contemplator

 

I know many 'birthers' and these guys drop the n-bomb more than they blink their eyes.

Just curious........... were the many that you've known racists before President Obama was elected, that is, before they were "birthers?"

Nope always been racists. The birther movement is nothing but a 'politically correct' code word for racist behavior.

I believe that you believe that to be true. No question in my mind about that. Maybe you've spent too much time with your friends; Maybe they're not the best influence on you, nor the best yardstick of middle America.

Not all birthers are racists ...
Not all racists are birthers ...
Not even all "birthers" are birthers ...

Folk think what they think and believe what they believe for a whole multitude of reasons, and only they and their mirror truly know what is in their heart.

Labeling another person in the course of discourse, not only delegitimizes one's argument and position, it is also simply intellectually lazy.

Fact is that if someone could provide concrete evidence in any process, their motivation matters little to the discussion ...

Karma will surely take care of that element.

reply to post by contemplator


Now. you see what I just did there? I painted you with the same brush as "the people you've known." That was a logical fallacy, and an entirely illogical reasoning.

That's what frequently do when they feel unable to debate issues. It's also a way of soliciting drama to detract from the issue. It's another label, a generalization.

What I hope you take from this is that people can have very different ideaologies and yet share a common interest.

After our entire society was founded on slavery, black men were enslaved by wealthy predominantly white males just 150 years ago, blacks were considered inferior just 50 years ago, large sections of our country continue to have a racist sentiment and we many militant racial groups of all persuasions, we've had intense race riots within the last 20 years. It would be absolutely stupid to think some of the opposition to a black president, especially the most fringe has absolutely anything to do with race. Seriously, we're all about equality. Just pick up a history book. The studies done recently that say 95% of the country thinks Obama is a citizen where in the south only 50% think he's a citizen don't mean a damn thing. This is all about the constitution after all. Which is exactly why all the people who turned into whiny cry baby attention whore divas over this didn't say a word while Bush was saving us from ourselves and our rights. This is all about America and doing the right thing.

reply to post by CuriousSkeptic


Perhaps, but what has this to do with the birth certificate issue?

Remember, he is also half white, no? What does his skin color have to do with his bc? And Bush certainly needn't be evoked unless you feel is was the racist anti-black sentiment you see in society that put him there. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, it's more of a question...

[edit on 10-8-2009 by Maxmars]

Originally posted by Maxmars
reply to post by CuriousSkeptic

 

Perhaps, but what has this to do with the birth certificate issue?

Remember, he is also half white, no? What does his skin color have to do with his bc? And Bush certainly needn't be evoked unless you feel is was the racist anti-black sentiment you see in society that put him there. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, it's more of a question...

[edit on 10-8-2009 by Maxmars]

It's about American culture and by extension the hysteria over his BC.

Apparently you don't know about the One-Drop rule with which race perception was formed with.
en.wikipedia.org...

Black Man Black Woman = Black Baby
White Man White Woman = White Baby
Black Man White Woman = Black Baby
White Man Black Woman = Black Baby

As much as you people want to avoid it or are ignorant of it, history matters. Although it seems very few people here on ATS have ever cracked a history book.

And I brought up Bush because he destroyed this country's constitution with his insane administration. The patriot act, water-boarding, government surveillance, etc. etc. etc. Yet the same political opposition to the Obama Administration, the right wing and Republican party that basically lubed Bush up and held us down during that time are now crying like little girls over Obama doing the same things. During the entire Bush administration these people discredited protests (by the way millions marched against Bush and the war, you got 400 to show up to a little rally... yeah your political party isn't in trouble) and played the exact same game. Only difference is Bush started two pointless laughable wars, trampled the constitution, and instilled a culture of fear. Obama wants to give you free health care.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by CuriousSkeptic]

Originally posted by skycopilot
Say what? The law currently in force (Constitution of the United States) says the President MUST have been born in the United States.

There is no need for a NEW law --- just enforce the one we have.

There is no law (as far as I know) that obliges a person to explicitly PROVE his eligibility. There's a thread on here somewhere that talks about a Senator's plan to introduce a bill to have the president prove his eligibility. IF that becomes a law, I'm not sure it would apply to Obama. That's all I'm saying.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I'm sure some are racist and some aren't.

I think that presidents should have to verify their eligibility. But up till now, it hasn't been a requirement. If a law should be passed that eligibility must be proven, I doubt it would affect Obama, though. They can say from now on, presidential hopefuls must prove their eligibility, but I don't think they could make the sitting president oblige. Maybe a Supreme Court order. But people who are hoping for this kind of action to have an effect on Obama are going to be disappointed, I'm afraid.

Probably true - unfortunately.

Just like the many liberals here that were hoping for an impeachment of Bush even as late as December, 2008 when he only had a month left in office. Remember what seemed like thousands of threads and posts on that subject?

The TRUE racist is one who cries "racism", the Loudest

reply to post by CuriousSkeptic


Bush may have opened the door (damn him), but even you should be able to admit that obama has walked right through it with a pretty brisk stride - in spite of all his campaign promises to do the opposite.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely ....

No birthers are not racists! We are more interested in the constitution and following it.We think all who run for POTUS should give every record to us,not hide them as O has.Hell hes hidden all his history even his school records!And Alan Keyes I love! I only wish he was our president instead!

[edit on 10-8-2009 by RoseD1st]

reply to post by CuriousSkeptic


CS,

I see no need to endure being told that I have never cracked a history book; you might be wrong in such an assumption. You should ask.

As to the racial mixing rule you seem fixated on, I see it as a social-engineering contrivance and an irrelevancy to this matter.

I generally share your assessment of the Bush wars and the era in general. But I fail to see why that leads the the notion that the BC issue is hysterical.

I understand your point, I simply feel it is incorrect of you to assume that your sensitivity to racial pressures or ignorance is commonly held across everyone you meet. In my opinion, the hysteria is yours, and it is your projection of the specter that causes you to focus on the racial. Rest assured, I recognize this in many people; you are simply one of them.

All I can assert is that, whether you care to accept it as plausible or not, the subject is not racial for me. That it is racial for some has nothing to do with the question, although that leaves partisan or other loyal defenders of the lack of disclosure with the issue itself, and not some contrived notion that any such question must - because you see it so - have something to do with race.

BH;

I have always respected your input in many areas and topics, but to assert that he has no legal obligation to PROVE his eligibility seems almost outlandishly silly.

The point of 'eligibility' is a logical partner to 'proof.' It seems ludicrous to accept that eligibility is legitimate - but proving it is not.





[edit on 10-8-2009 by Maxmars]

Originally posted by kj6754
Before I say this, I want to note that I do not think Mr keys is a racist.

There is a major flaw in your argument. A black person can be a racist just as anyone else can. Its even possible for a black person to be racist against black people. There are no rules on who can and can't be racist

Point taken, that it's a flaw but i wouldn't call it a major flaw. Dr Phil had a black woman on his show who was prejudiced against black people, so yes it happens, but I would think it's the exception rather than the rule.

Besides, I admit some people wanting to see the long form certificate probably are racist, but I certainly hope most aren't. I'd like to see the long form and I'm not racist. And I agree, I have no reason to think Dr. Alan Keyes is racist either.

As for Bush vs Obama, I'm not a rightie or a leftie either, so as far as I'm concerned, I'd like to see proof from both of them, or any republican or democrat, or independent in office.

Yes the constitution says the POTUS must be a natural born citizen, but everyone says "It's not my job" to determine that. Maybe some new legislation will close that loophole or crack through which verification might fall, but in the meantime the military personnel lawsuits are the only chance I see of getting a court to order some more evidence.

And the biggest question of all: If I was POTUS in Obama's situation, is it more logical to :
A. Send a letter to Hawaii DOH and the hospital where I was born, authorizing them to release my birth records? or
B. Spend a fortune on legal fees to fight any request to release any birth records.
Personally, I would choose A. Dr Alan Keyes said he would choose A. I think most people would choose A. The only people I can think of who would choose option B, are people with something to hide. I'm talking about POTUS here who has chosen to live a very public life in a very public office, not ordinary citizens.

We don't even know what hospital he was born at, or if he was even born in a hospital. Yet some people seem so 100% certain they know where he was born, but they obviously don't. Only about 3 people seem to know the details of his birth, and they aren't providing any details, but instead release cryptic statements that raise more questions in what they DON'T say than provide answers in what they DO say.

reply to post by kj6754


lol blacks can be racist against their own kind. there are alot of blacks who inside hate being black.(uncle tom's, house negor's) and try to make their own community look as bad as the can just to look good for white folks. many of u may disagree but ask some of ur black friends if they ran across many of these. i know i have and so has my wife. i do believe that the majority of the birthers are racist, stuck in the old ways, and dont want to change it. i personally think many of them are hiding behind this crazy conspiracy saying they dont like obama cuzz he was born in kenya(wich is bs imo) so they can cover up their racist old views. i would personally have more respect for them if they just came out of the closet and said "i m upset we got ablack prez" just my 2 cents on that




as far as the people saying blacks cant be racist. lol thats a whole different topic. if there is a thread on that i would love to join in the debate

salaam

[edit on 10-8-2009 by jmacbeth]

Originally posted by Maxmars
reply to post by CuriousSkeptic

 

Hey man, my posts on here are aimed at the general populace. I consider you to be an intelligent person and I hope you don't think any of my negative comments were directed at you. I have nothing but respect for you Max.

The question was "Are Birthers Racist?" People may be falling all over themselves to claim there's no racism in Obama opposition but I explained why I think that's wrong. However, I don't necessarily think Birthers are racist.

But let me ask you, do you think there would something strange about people insisting their leader isn't one of them? People keep insisting their elected leader is from a foreign country. People keep insisting he's an illegitimate, he's not good enough to be the elected leader. The elected leader happens to be black. And statistically the majority of these people who hold this belief just happen to be from the South. These people will believe just about anything that will support their belief that this man is an illegitimate no matter how crazy or ridiculous (go look at that Kenyan BC thread where SkepticOverlord got suckered) The entire established political world including the right wing and virtually all of the Obama opposition says this is non-sense. Yet, these people ignore all that and keep dreaming up new angles and conspiracies to keep this thought alive. Over seven months and two years later, that side has absolutely nothing, no evidence, no proof, just crazy stories which get crazier.

Now I ask you, what the hell am I supposed to think of that?

And we're not talking about you specifically, we're talking about the movement at large.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by CuriousSkeptic]

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic

And we're not talking about you specifically, we're talking about the movement at large.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by CuriousSkeptic]

So, if someone were to post, "Liberals, democrats and obama supporters are elitists and socialists out to destroy the constitution", it would be OK as long as they also said, "And we're not talking about you specifically, we're talking about the movement at large"?

Think about it before throwing out the racism card yet again ...

reply to post by kj6754


This is why Alan doesn't like Obama....


www.usatoday.com...

I don't like Obama but I've dropped the whole "birther" thing, I don't support it anymore. Its also making us anti obama people look like idiots. But anyways I'm black and I *was* a birther, so no they arent all racist. I'm sure there are plenty of idiots though who are racist and are birthers though.

Btw I still don't really know if I believe he was born here but I've dropped supporting that argument all together for a variety of reasons. I'm still extremely anti obama though.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic

And we're not talking about you specifically, we're talking about the movement at large.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by CuriousSkeptic]

So, if someone were to post, "Liberals, democrats and obama supporters are elitists and socialists out to destroy the constitution", it would be OK as long as they also said, "And we're not talking about you specifically, we're talking about the movement at large"?

Think about it before throwing out the racism card yet again ...

It certainly seems to be around here. Also I'm neither of those three so why would I care? And I'll continue to throw the racist card, when I see a racist penalty.

reply to post by CuriousSkeptic

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic
After our entire society was founded on slavery,...

I had to stop reading your post at this point, because it is based upon a false premise.

Our entire society was not founded on slavery.