'Vertical Structure' in Saturn's Rings., page 1

Pages: << 1 2 >>
ATS Members have flagged this thread 9 times

Topic started on 10-8-2009 @ 04:20 AM by Kandinsky

The latest Cassini images have added a couple of intriguing mysteries to the long list of objects already known. Cassini was projected to be ideally situated to capture the August equinox as it would indicate smaller objects by their long shadows. This first image is an object that appears to be coming through the F-Ring and pulling material through in it's wake...

Punching Through The Rings

plus Archive Page

This image (above) and others like it (see PIA11663) are only possible around the time of Saturn's equinox which occurs every half-Saturn-year (equivalent to about 15 Earth years). The illumination geometry that accompanies equinox lowers the sun's angle to the ring plane and causes out-of-plane structures to cast long shadows across the rings.

The more interesting image is what NASA are describing as 'vertical structures.' Here's the only image I could get that would fit in the OP...

Link to full sized JPEG (459kb)

Cassini's cameras have spotted not only the predictable shadows of some of Saturn's moons (see PIA11657), but also the shadows of newly revealed vertical structures in the rings themselves (see PIA11654). This view looks toward the unilluminated side of the rings from about 27 degrees above the ring plane. The image was taken in visible light with the Cassini spacecraft narrow-angle camera on June 11, 2009. The view was acquired at a distance of approximately 866,000 kilometers (538,000 miles) from Saturn and at a Sun-Saturn-spacecraft, or phase, angle of 30 degrees. Image scale is 5 kilometers (3 miles) per pixel.

Source

The vertical structures are believed to be due to the gravitational effects of the small moon, Daphnis. As it charts it's orbit, it creates ripples in the rings and draws up material that forms these structures...as far as I understand it!

Measurements of the shadows in this and other images indicate that the vertical structures range between one-half to 1.5 kilometers tall (about one-third to one mile), making them as much as 150 times as high as the ring is thick. The main A, B and C rings are only about 10 meters (about 30 feet) thick. Daphnis itself can be seen casting a shadow onto the nearby ring.

CICLOPS source

The article links don't really explain the 'vertical structures.' Has anybody any good ideas?

[edit on 10-8-2009 by Kandinsky]

reply posted on 10-8-2009 @ 04:27 AM by Mogget

I suspect that the orbit of Daphnis isn't perfectly aligned with the ring plane. When it dips below (or rises above) the ring plane, its gravity will pull ring material with it. That is almost certainly the reason for any "vertical structures".

Of course, these "vertical structures" aren't monoliths, or tall spires. They are streams of material that are being gravitationally perturbed from the main ring plane. Notice how the "ripples" in the ring structure are on the outside ahead of Daphnis, and on the inside trailing it? That is a perfect demonstration of gravity at work.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by Mogget]

reply posted on 10-8-2009 @ 05:19 AM by Kandinsky

I could kick my own ass from time to time. I read the information faster than I could digest it...not for the first time. The 'vertical structure' is the shadow of Daphnis across the rings. Due to it being virtually perfectly vertical...my brain processed it as an 'illusory tower' of material. The coincidence of the shadow's direction threw me off...

reply posted on 10-8-2009 @ 05:35 AM by Exuberant1

Originally posted by Kandinsky
I could kick my own ass from time to time. I read the information faster than I could digest it...not for the first time.

That's Okay Kandinsky, we can remedy this - it is still early in the thread.

I say this calls for another Saturn-related Anomalous image:

Here is the source of this image (W00003034)

Let us discuss this one.

Edit: I starred and flagged this thread.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by Exuberant1]

reply posted on 10-8-2009 @ 06:42 AM by Devino

Originally posted by Kandinsky

Link to full sized JPEG (459kb)

The odd thing about the rings on either side of that moon is how one ring appears to have leaped across the gap intact. I'm now curious as to the motions of Saturn's rings and that moon, or whatever that point is. If those two are moving at different rates thus changing the ring all the way around then something is keeping that ring in intact and aligned.

reply posted on 10-8-2009 @ 07:43 AM by Kandinsky

reply to post by Devino

I can see what you mean. The 'waves' along the edge appear to ripple on the one edge behind Daphnis and on the opposite edge in front. I assumed it was an illusion, but looking at it from this different angle remains the same.

Planetary Science

Catalog Page and full JPEG

The distance of the 'waves' is the same in front as behind and is probably the effects of Daphnis gravity on the smaller particles that form the rings

reply posted on 10-8-2009 @ 08:00 AM by Kandinsky

reply to post by Exuberant1

Hiya Exie, I think the image is a result of overexposure/ light saturation as Cassini comes around Saturn and into the sun's rays. As the light hits the lens at that angle, it creates lens flare...the 'object.'

If you look at the images preceding and succeeding it in the raw images catalog...it becomes clear. Here are two examples...

W00003032

W00003035

reply posted on 10-8-2009 @ 08:08 AM by Exuberant1

Originally posted by Kandinsky

If you look at the images preceding and succeeding it in the raw images catalog...it becomes clear. Here are two examples...

W00003032

W00003035

You shouldn't have pulled those out so soon.

Don't you want to see what people will come up with?

Let their imaginations run wild for a page or two.

...then once they think they finally have it figured out, come in and crush their ideas.

reply posted on 10-8-2009 @ 08:18 AM by Kandinsky

reply to post by Exuberant1

You shouldn't have pulled those out so soon. Don't you want to see what people will come up with? Let their imaginations run wild for a page or two.

Not for the first time, I've killed my own thread in the 3rd post!

One day, I'll write some extraordinary claim and go down to the pub...

I should set up a proxy account that can be wide-eyed and innocently post threads based on YT and Pravda. Stars & Flags galore...whoohah

reply posted on 10-8-2009 @ 09:17 AM by The_Modulus

Thanks for the images Kandinsky.

Indeed a rather fascinating example of the effects of gravity. I think your explanation for the 'monolith' is quite accurate, from the second angle you presented it in, it is quite clearly the long shadow and the moon, casting along the rings of dust.

I am still intrigued by these images though:

What do you suppose that obtuse V shaped gloving object is? If I had to explain it away I would guess that it is strange camera glare coming off of Daphnis... although, it really doesn't look that way.

reply posted on 10-8-2009 @ 10:00 AM by Kandinsky

reply to post by The_Modulus

Hiya Modulus

It looks good, doesn't it? Looking at it as magnified as possible, I think the bright triangle is the ring particles being dragged behind the object that's bursting through. I was trying to find an image of *something/anything* bursting out of water and couldn't...

This is close

The shutter speed (above) is much faster than Cassini, but this is the effect. I'd love to see an animation of the Saturn images with the object slamming gracefully through and the ring slowly regaining composure. Like a stone in a pond on a scale of several hundred square miles. It would probably look beautiful

Still don't know what the object was...comet? Asteroid?

I found a short animation of gravity on the rings earlier...I'll link it if possible.

reply posted on 10-8-2009 @ 10:11 AM by The_Modulus

Wow! Nice Christmas bauble pic!

Ok, I think this 'trail plume' cannot be the case, as shouldn't we see it in this image?

Also, it looks like Daphnis has already cut out a pathway in the rings and is not colliding with much further material, but is rather causing these 'waves' as seen in the image above, resulting from it's gravitational influence.

Now I'm not sure why the pull of gravity would cause ring particles to move above and below the moon to it's side, erm sort of like this --_o_-- (cross section, inverted). I would have assumed the gravitational pull would have sucked the particles toward the moon, creating small eddies in it's wake... hm.

reply posted on 10-8-2009 @ 10:36 AM by Kandinsky

reply to post by The_Modulus

Ok, I think this 'trail plume' cannot be the case, as shouldn't we see it in this image?

That's definitely right. They're two separate objects. The one you liked best was an unknown object piercing the rings and leaving behind a 'plume' of particles...like the bauble.

The other image is Daphnis.

I would have assumed the gravitational pull would have sucked the particles toward the moon, creating small eddies in it's wake... hm.

Damn good question. You've taken me to the limits of what little I know! I'll be looking for the explanation for the next half hour. I've got another good image from 2005 that shows that unusual ripple again...I wonder why it's one side in front...the other side behind??

reply posted on 10-8-2009 @ 11:37 AM by The_Modulus

Originally posted by Kandinsky

That's definitely right. They're two separate objects. The one you liked best was an unknown object piercing the rings and leaving behind a 'plume' of particles...like the bauble.

I see! Well that explains the discrepancy in images! The cool image may well be such a plume then.

Yes, and this image is fascinating indeed:

Far more enlightening than this image:

which does not describe those aberations of gravity distortions.

From the image you just provided it looks as though the moon may be affected by differing gravitational pulls from Saturn itself, perhaps as it orbits around different areas of the planet, different gravitational densities either pull the moon slightly closer to the planet of further away from it.

Very interesting indeed, but I fail to understand why it should cast the particles upwards and downwards, rather than into the slipstream as eddies.

reply posted on 10-8-2009 @ 11:42 AM by -NewSense-

This has already been discussed

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply posted on 10-8-2009 @ 01:01 PM by Kandinsky

reply to post by The_Modulus

From the image you just provided it looks as though the moon may be affected by differing gravitational pulls from Saturn itself, perhaps as it orbits around different areas of the planet, different gravitational densities either pull the moon slightly closer to the planet of further away from it.

Very interesting indeed, but I fail to understand why it should cast the particles upwards and downwards, rather than into the slipstream as eddies.

I understand what you mean, it's interesting. I'm wondering if it's the magnetic field of Daphnis acting on the rings in a similar way a boat creates a wake behind and pushes the water in front? Tried to find an image to illustrate the point and failed. I've found that the gap is called the Keeler Gap.

Daphnis (8 kilometers, or 5 miles across) is a bright dot casting a thin shadow just to the left of the center of the image. The moon has an inclined orbit, and its gravitational pull perturbs the orbits of the particles of the A ring forming the Keeler Gap's edge and sculpting the edge into waves having both horizontal (radial) and out-of-plane components. See PIA11655 to learn more and to see a movie of this process.

Link

The movie it mentions doesn't work on my laptop...unless a split-second flash was their intention

Here's the movie link, maybe it'll work for you?

The wave motion that's only only on the nearside in front and on the offside at back has baffled me and I can't find the answer. Times like these call for a request to someone who probably does know...

reply posted on 11-8-2009 @ 01:57 AM by The_Modulus

reply to post by Kandinsky

I had assumed that the waves could not be the result of electro-magnetic effects of the moon itself as I would assume that the moon was created from ring material itself, and for an object to have a significant magnetic field it would need to have some kind of metallic core, which I somehow doubt ring dust is composed of.

I agree, would be nice for an expert to step in here and give us the answer